Rama Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 but for some reason Luthier is being pursued by hate spewing pack dogs. You give a judgement about peoples without knowing much about what really happened. Luthier's history started long before CloD, There was not problem when he was a third party plane developper for IL2. Then he leaded the IL2 PF project. And lot's of amateurs third parties that worked with him at that time (plane and terrain modelleurs) had some problems with his management (I know some of them, and I will not say more since I don't want to take a side). Luthier's critic started from there, and amplified with Luthier's communication during the CloD project (with a long record of failed promises). Yes 1C was in charge, but 1C didn't communicate, that was Luthier. So you can't blame peoples for remembering failed promises and doubting about Luthier's capacity to fullfill new promises. If someone tell you he will deliver something and that you can trust him he will... then don't... then you will have some doubt. And I'm sure you would not like to be called a "hate spewing pack dog" just for doubting. So please, avoid this kind of name calling. For the actual DCS project, I agree with you that whatever peoples think about Luthier, negativity is useless. Nobody knows how it will turn, and the best is to wait for release before judging (And it should be the standard attitude for every new project).
Feathered_IV Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I don't tend to blame 1c for finally pushing it out the door. I don't think Luthier would have been able to finish it within any financially viable timeframe. He's very passionate about flightsims, however he is not suited to the management role. Certainly not for such a complex project at any rate.
DD_bongodriver Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 You give a judgement about peoples without knowing much about what really happened. I give judgement based on what I see, failed promises or not, this is simply about computer games, why Luthier is vilified like he has actually physically harmed people is incredible. 1
Rama Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Whatever your opinion about, don't call people names, neither individuals nor groups. Ok?
Finkeren Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I don't know many people who actually vilify Luthier except from behind an anonymus sock-account. I think most of us think of Luthier as an incredibly talented guy who is all about building great flight sims. I just think history has proven, and is about to prove again, that he's propably not the right guy to lead a huge, ambitious project like this. Also, saying that Luthier wasn't given time enough to finish ClOD, begs the question: How much time is time enough. IMHO ClOD was trapped in development hell and you really can't fault a producer for not giving it even more years to get done. Software development is a nasty business, where you have to work extremely fast to stay cutting edge but also have to deliver a product that works. The world of flight sims is no different.
Sternjaeger Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) That's what I don't get, ClOD was 1C's mess, Luthier didn't ruin it, he just wasn't given the time to finish it, it wouldn't have been his decision to release it and it wouldn't have been his decision to cancel it, Team Fusion have proved beyond doubt it was viable, but for some reason Luthier is being pursued by hate spewing pack dogs. Wait wait wait. First of all, as Rama said, Luthier had quite some history for bad management, and more than one contributor complained about that even back on Pacific Fighters' time. Second thing, when you're the manager of a project, you're ultimately responsible for it, whilst the software house is eligible (at least in theory, they normally save their ass...ets with the small print stuff..). There's no way out of that, if you reckon the project is unattainable, you pull the plug, you don't keep on poking something that is already dead. There's a whole history of his mismanagement of the project, from the continuous broken promises to the complete lack of updates, not to mention the terrible, terrible communication skills, and I'm not talking about language skills, I'm talking about talking angry paying customers down, at some point even taking the piss with really inappropriate humour. It was totally out of control, and in hindsight I even wondered whether the whole thing was deliberate, if anything to free himself of the 1C control.. I am not going to speculate over the new project, even if some telltale signs have already surfaced (and this is not just me saying it, as I'm not following it personally, but someone who's close to the dev team). I will give it the benefit of the doubt, but as I said, this is gonna be the last chance he gets I think.. And mind you, nobody is questioning Luthier's passion or knowledge, it's a mere matter of project management skills, a lot of people improvise themselves as project managers and go down in flames, it's a tough tough job! Edited March 31, 2014 by Sternjaeger
DD_bongodriver Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Yeah, whatever, now can we just pipe down and give the guy a chance? We got Pacific Fighters, we got Clod and now I wan't DCS WWII and as Rama has so well pointed out, no matter what your opinion there is no need to call people names. 1
Finkeren Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I cross my fingers along with you Bongo. No matter what you might think, I really do want DCS:WW2 to succeed, right now I just don't have enough faith (let alone financial means) to support it with my money.
Sternjaeger Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Yeah, whatever, now can we just pipe down and give the guy another chance? We got Pacific Fighters, we got Clod in a presentable form thanks to Team Fusion and now I wan't DCS WWII and as Rama has so well pointed out, no matter what your opinion there is no need to call people names. there, fixed it for ya We're on the same side with fingers crossed here, some of us are just a bit skeptical, that's it.. Edited March 31, 2014 by Sternjaeger
ST_ami7b5 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I cross my fingers along with you Bongo. No matter what you might think, I really do want DCS:WW2 to succeed, right now I just don't have enough faith (let alone financial means) to support it with my money. This. Except, I have supported it with my money - even the western front is not my favourite... Just for the sake of keeping the genre alive.
BraveSirRobin Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 There is a great thread on the ED forum blasting Luthier for the lack of communication. It was started by someone who spent much of his time on the CoD forum blasting Luthier for his lack of communication. It's probably best to ignore the complaining on the forums.
Sternjaeger Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 There is a great thread on the ED forum blasting Luthier for the lack of communication. It was started by someone who spent much of his time on the CoD forum blasting Luthier for his lack of communication. It's probably best to ignore the complaining on the forums. well it's not like it's completely undeserved.. pointless maybe, but not undeserved
Bladderburst Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I think (or at least hope!) that Luthier learned his lesson, but it still remains that CloD is quite a big stain on his CV and DCS 1944 is what will make or break him really.. no pressure uh? Most people working in games have a few stains on their CVs. I would not worry about him. There is a great thread on the ED forum blasting Luthier for the lack of communication. It was started by someone who spent much of his time on the CoD forum blasting Luthier for his lack of communication. It's probably best to ignore the complaining on the forums. It's great to talk to your customers when in development but it can backfire as soon as you make a mistake. The gaming crowd is a tough one. They think that they deserve more than the product that is sold to them. The worst gamers were raised in a pig pen. They have no manners and are borderline violent. They think that they are entitled to more than buying the product and that they know better than the developers yet none of those guys have a job in game development. So I can understand him to take some distance. 3
DD_bongodriver Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Most people working in games have a few stains on their CVs. I would not worry about him. It's great to talk to your customers when in development but it can backfire as soon as you make a mistake. The gaming crowd is a tough one. They think that they deserve more than the product that is sold to them. The worst gamers were raised in a pig pen. They have no manners and are borderline violent. They think that they are entitled to more than buying the product and that they know better than the developers yet none of those guys have a job in game development. So I can understand him to take some distance. Quoted for truth, it's disgusting how people behave, exactly the same mentality as people who are issuing death threats to Oculus staff for the Facebook deal. 2
BraveSirRobin Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 well it's not like it's completely undeserved.. pointless maybe, but not undeserved Whether or not it's deserved is beside the point. When you blast someone for crappy service, don't buy their next product. If you decide to buy their next product anyways, shut your pie hole. 1
Bladderburst Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 It's like what happened to egosoft with their latest. Yes the product is really bad. But it's like some people thought they bought a pass for legal harassment. Some guys literally spent their entire day trolling forums and acting like hooligans. It's like these guys enjoy being angry. It's like how people behaved with ubisoft and IL2. I don't like ubisoft a lot but it wasn't their fault. I remember that thing with the propellers and the "epilepsy" filter or something like that. Lots of uneducated arguing. However those people should have known that every game published by a big company goes through ergonomy standards including regulations for epilepsy. The only thing that you can do is never buy again from those guys... The odd thing is that most of these pissed guys will buy again from the developers they trolled. I am sure that some of the clod trolls bought the early access here even though they "screamed" that they would never buy again from 1c. 2
Rama Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Discussion about peoples behavior is always schematic, and even simplistic and stigmatizing. Peoples are allways much more complex than the labels you put on them. There's no pass for harassment or trolling on this forum. So please drop the discussions on other's behavior. It's useless and will bring you nowhere.
Sternjaeger Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 fellas, let's agree to disagree, ok? I don't know what sort of business you work in for a living, but where I work, you screw up like that (and I'm not talking about just results, I'm talking about behaviour), you go home. Now, as I said earlier, I'm giving it once more the benefit of the doubt, and I'm really hoping they'll do great, because they surely deserve it. Having said this, do we know what's Oleg's role in all this? Is he taking active part in the development?
FuriousMeow Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Luthier is fully responsible for CloD. 1C didn't pull the rug out from under him, he mismanaged himself to the point that he had to sell the rug and the floor it sat on. He had 7 years, that's entirely too long to see any return on investment with air combat games. He changed game engines midway through, had to settle with a 3rd party tree generator, and reused Il-2's code for the FM and the ground handling model. It was the exact same for the former at release with some additions, and still the exact same with the latter. He feature creeped his way akin to Duke Nukem Forever into a title that would have taken another 5 years to be released, and who knows if it ever would have been due to the aforementioned feature creep. Luthier mismanaged PF as well, Oleg had to step in and take over to get it out the door. It's been Luthier's mismanagement the whole time, not anyone else or even the evil corporation of 1C. Edited March 31, 2014 by FuriousMeow 1
Sternjaeger Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 It's like what happened to egosoft with their latest. Yes the product is really bad. But it's like some people thought they bought a pass for legal harassment. Some guys literally spent their entire day trolling forums and acting like hooligans. It's like these guys enjoy being angry. It's like how people behaved with ubisoft and IL2. I don't like ubisoft a lot but it wasn't their fault. I remember that thing with the propellers and the "epilepsy" filter or something like that. Lots of uneducated arguing. However those people should have known that every game published by a big company goes through ergonomy standards including regulations for epilepsy. The only thing that you can do is never buy again from those guys... The odd thing is that most of these pissed guys will buy again from the developers they trolled. I am sure that some of the clod trolls bought the early access here even though they "screamed" that they would never buy again from 1c. Yeah, but you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there that don't have much else, and who probably are young and save some money to buy something that never quite worked as promised. I think that in a way there is a bit too much wanting to justify game devs sometimes, because hey, it's a game, but to a lot of people (you included) it's a job, and it needs to be treated as such. No matter what you work on, there are ethics, deadlines, customer relations, it can't all be dismissed with "...heeeey, I think we effed up, sorry!" If someone's career was always over because there was a mistake made (and in this example, not necessarily their full responsibility) there would be damn long queues at the job centre! I'm glad to say, in the UK there are employment laws that protect people from being sacked for professional mistakes. Gross Misconduct is pretty much the only instantly sackable offence in the UK and nothing we've discussed in this thread would constitute that. I hope similar laws exist in other countries. More to the point, I'd hope fellow human beings were able to forgive others and allow them a second chance. Anecdotal "evidence" about multiple chances already being given aside, apart from the CloD fiasco we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, but in a lot of sectors people resign when they realised they effed up, as a matter of reputation, ethics and responsibility..
johncage Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I hope similar laws exist in other countries. of course they do, but not for videogames, as it's a relatively new field, even within the entertainment industry. that's why companies like ea and ubisoft still exist.
BraveSirRobin Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Sternjaeger, the problem here isn't the person who effed up, the problem is people who spent months telling them they effed up, then hired them for another virtually identical project.
Revvin Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I hope prospective employers and employment agencies are watching this thread, so many perfect candidates who have never made mistakes
Rama Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 STOP!!!!!! End of the discussion about guessed responsabilities for CloD end of support. Next post about will grant his author a bit of meditation time. 1
Bladderburst Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Anybody knows if they're going for a study sim like BlackShark or A10 or is it going to be like Flaming Cliffs?
Feathered_IV Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I think it's more a study sim. It was said that the individual aircraft and map are chosen more for available information than continuity of scenario.
Bounder Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) Anybody knows if they're going for a study sim like BlackShark or A10 or is it going to be like Flaming Cliffs? The new aircraft are being modelled at the same high level as the Mustang and A10c (advanced FM & CEM). As feathered said, DCS WW2 will be more of a study sim. Edited April 1, 2014 by No.64_Bounder
siipperi Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Ignoring all the foolishness for past few pages and continuing what this thread is all about: This was added to DCS World 1.2.8 Open Beta notes: Added FREE TF-51D for DCS World! This is the P-51D with the weapons, radios and rear tank removed with a jump seat added in the back. This does not include dual controls. So it's to my understanding same thing as DCS P51D "role model" was. Miss Velma. Something to all negative nancies to play with meanwhile waiting for DCS WW2. 1
killerwhale Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 so im confused,DCS WWII is being developed by Digital Combat Simulator(DCS) and this game is being developed by Maddox correct? 2 different developers
DD_bongodriver Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 DCS WWII is being developed by RRG studios headed by Ilya Shevchenko formerly of Maddox games and this game is being developed by 1CGS which is a combination of 777 and 1C.
=BKHZ=Furbs Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 When ever DCS44 arrives i think it will be special, i dont think its going to do what BOS or CLOD does, its going to be its own sim. Ground pounding in that P47 is going to be a blast!(if i can get it in the air, that is) 2
=LD=Hethwill Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 Give us "world making" tools for DCS44 and the community will make those warbirds shine. The ability to fully shape your game universe using the assets they create will make it rock. For a "midly empty" warbird scenario, A2A designed some good ones already, but back to the point, a product like DCS requires more of the community, given the "sandbox" nature, that many other products. I like that, but the lack of tools to properly mod and design full campaigns and scenarios, in comparison to ... let's say Bohemia's Arma engine. Granted the whole-control of the vehicles ( and birds ! ) is more demanding on the procedures than most, and can be rewarding to a point. €1 million is the bare minimum amount for production of a game, let alone 250k. I am please by all the shots released so far, really am, but way more interested in the changes to editor instead of being one more chunky assets package to add to DCS world. Keyword: content. The planes are only a tool. 1
DB605 Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Some good news and new K4 screens for backers: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122467
Bearcat Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Unfortunately as of yet I have no access to that forum despite my already taken pledge.. I sent emails ... so far nothing.
DD_bongodriver Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Don't fret BC, other folks have been in the same boat and got sorted.
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