Flying the BoS Dream campaign - SP inspiration, Singleplayers only

[BraveSirRobin]

blah...blah...blah.... And I think most of us (but not you apparently) trust the devs not to set out on a task that will bankrupt the company. If anything the devs have proven that their business model is fairly solid and that they can achieve a lot with limited resources.

 

This forum, and others, are full of people bitching about the campaign and saying that they're not buying BoS or BoM until they get what they want.  I'm definitely not the problem.  I'm just happy that there is still someone working on a WW2 flight sim.

[LukeFF]

Fantasy

 

Each development is based on the old program code that you extend. There is nothing made from scratch. Who said that there is a rewrite needed? I just put the whole RoF Career Mode program code into BoS and add to the BoS Game UI a new Section call this like I want. And the finial lap I do with .lua scripting inside the .gtp folders. Finished is the BoS Career Mode.

 

The same way like it is possible to turn the RoF WWI Career Mode into a RoF WWII Career Mode.

 

The Devs just removed this RoF Career Mode program code and not wanted to include it to BoS because they wanted to made something from scratch where they can add the Unlock System. And this current BoS Campaign is just perfect for this current Unlock, Plane Loadout, Weapon Loadout and Skins Loadout System. And this BoS Style into the RoF Style is possible but take a lot work to rewrite.  And this time they seem don't have or have other ideas what they hide from us.

 

Your ignorance of software programming is staggering.

Edited May 24, 2015 by LukeFF

[Skoop]

I find the fact that Feathered is pulling this stuff from ROF compelling in sense that BOS and ROF are so closely related that we are using ROF documentation as makeshift BOS documentation. So why not use the ROF campaign code in BOS to get this jump started ?

 

I get BSR's point, we don't want to demand everything under the sun, and boycott the sim if they don't deliver. The devs fear they will end up like microprose.

 

I plan to get BOM because I like the sim, but if we don't get a SP improvement by "Battle of Kursk" or "Battle of AfriKa" installments, well that's not proper customer support. I'd like to see one major engine improvement to go along with each new 80 dollar sim installment.

 

I do like Feathered's approach, show examples of what you want, rather than demand or complain.

[D_Konig]

Feathered, is this something you are working on actively? Or just making concept screenshots? 

It's cool either way. Also, if you could or anyone else PM me a link to your radio mods, that would be cool.

 

Thanks!

[DD_Arthur]

I plan to get BOM because I like the sim, but if we don't get a SP improvement by "Battle of Kursk" or "Battle of AfriKa" installments, well that's not proper customer support. I'd like to see one major engine improvement to go along with each new 80 dollar sim installment.

 

 

 

 

One major improvement  to the engine with each expansion?  Seems completely reasonable.  We could at least start by giving the SP guys a campaign worthy of the name and for the next expansion they could give us a coop mode and a mods on mode.

 

 

Feathered, is this something you are working on actively? Or just making concept screenshots? 

It's cool either way. Also, if you could or anyone else PM me a link to your radio mods, that would be cool.

 

Thanks!

 

I think this is what you're looking for Konig;

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15654-download-ambient-vvs-radio-mp-immersion/?hl=%2Brussian+%2Bgerman+%2Bradio+%2Bvoices

[Bearcat]

There are loads of people who would gladly pay 20-40$ for a proper career/campaign mode and many who would even preorder.

 

Maybe you could even set up a kickstarter? Unlike some other developers I'd gladly trust 1C/777 with my money, because they have a track record of actually delivering.

 

I don't know about that given the level of rhetoric launched against this sim over multiple venues....

 

There are lots of people complaining about paying $90 for the game that we got.  The campaign that Feathered is describing would probably add $50 to the price of the game, and virtually no one will pay for that.  

 

True on the first part.. although whether anyone would pay for it or not is debatable

[SharpeXB]

There are lots of people complaining about paying $90 for the game that we got.  The campaign that Feathered is describing would probably add $50 to the price of the game, and virtually no one will pay for that.

 

I would pay $50 for a good career mode as an extra DLC. It would be worth every penny.

[BraveSirRobin]

Great, put together a Kickstarter and get someone to code it.

[KodiakJac]

Your ignorance of software programming is staggering.

 

Mine isn't.  I recently retired as a Systems Integration Manager for a Fortune 10 company with project teams as large as 200 members including C++ programmers.

 

Its about 1000 hours (the time it took for Pat Wilson to write PWCG).  Pat is a full time professional Java programmer and built PWCG in his spare time.  Adding resources doesn't always work like many people think (ie: 1000 hours spread across 10 programmers at 100 hours each and you have a finished product in 2.5 weeks - it almost never works that way).  But PWCG for BoS would be very feasible in 3 to 4 months with two programmers (1000 hours is 1/2 man year).  A top rate independent contract C++ programmer charges about $100,000 per year in the U.S.  PWCG for BoS could be developed at a cost of about $50,000 (1/2 man year) by two full time programmers in appox 3 to 4 months.

 

Let's not turn a PWCG type program for BoS into a mysterious parting of the Red Sea.  And adding the code to BoS to allow the community to string single missions into campaigns would cost much less.

 

BSR doesn't think 1CGS would recoup the $50,000 investment.  Many of us do.  Then there's those who think it should be included in BoS for free vs being sold as an add-on.  I would pay for PWCG for BoS, but many would scream bloody murder if it were sold for $25 or so.  So 1CGS would also have the PR battle of that to face.  I was hoping they would roll the cost into BoM and retrofit it back to BoS (ie: if you buy BoM you also get PWCG for BoS/BoM).  I think that is their best bet.  And I would buy BoM if that were the case.  But then you have perception...is Loft willing to let BoS become a "sim" when he clearly placed it in the marketplace as a "game."

[SharpeXB]

 Its about 1000 hours (the time it took for Pat Wilson to write PWCG). 

There's the programming time but then there's research time. One thing that just amazing about PWCG is the amount of work he must have done regarding the squadrons and rosters. You can join any squadron in the 2+ years covered by the campaign and there's the roster of pilots who flew in it included. Then there's skins for most of these units as there is in RoF.

Did I read correctly somewhere he has some 30 years of experience in researching WWI? In any case that's a lot of work for a career mode. But having a career is imo the most important aspect of a sim right after the aircraft themselves. After all you need something to do with them.

[BraveSirRobin]

Mine isn't.  I recently retired as a Systems Integration Manager for a Fortune 10 company with project teams as large as 200 members including C++ programmers.

 

It looks like we just found our volunteer to program the new BoS campaign.

[SharpeXB]

It looks like we just found our volunteer to program the new BoS campaign.

Jason said he needs a Java programmer.

[BraveSirRobin]

He's retired.  He has plenty of time to learn Java.

[SharpeXB]

He's retired.  He has plenty of time to learn Java.

Haha! :-D

[LukeFF]

Feathered, is this something you are working on actively? Or just making concept screenshots? 

It's cool either way. Also, if you could or anyone else PM me a link to your radio mods, that would be cool.

 

Thanks!

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11420-flying-bos-dream-campaign-sp-inspiration-singleplayers-only/page-6?do=findComment&comment=260964

There's the programming time but then there's research time. One thing that just amazing about PWCG is the amount of work he must have done regarding the squadrons and rosters. You can join any squadron in the 2+ years covered by the campaign and there's the roster of pilots who flew in it included. Then there's skins for most of these units as there is in RoF.

 

The research time is a huge part, as I can attest to from my efforts to expand ROF's career mode from what the team coded. To make sure everything has been researched properly and to then make sure it is all integrated into the game is no small task. 

[LLv24_Zami]

I dont know about cost and time what it takes to make decent campaign and frankly I dont care. I am a customer, not developer so I dont have to.

 

I have been a strong supporter of this sim because for the most parts it it awesome! It has been clearly worth the money and I have had great time playing it.

But as a SP I expect improvements to the campaign system which is seriously lacking at the moment. Either from third party or developers, it doesn`t matter.

If there is no improvement coming for this part of the game I must seriously consider not to purchase next sequel if there is any. It is not enough just to add new planes and maps when there is no proper campaign.

[Jupp]

~S~ Everyone,

 

The solution to the Single Player Campaign is found in mastering the Mission Editor.

 

Plain and simple, if you learn to write missions, you can build an infinite virtual "world of your own".

 

Flight Simulators are not a video game, they are a gymnasium for your grey matter. Learn "the ME".

 

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has gone through the process of doing exactly that.

 

There is enough information, as scattered as it is, online, to teach you to build up to competence, in a relatively short order.

 

There are a couple of us "fanboiz" working on the Technical Manuals, organized and revised specifically for Battle of Stalingrad. Time will see them released.

 

However, I have transformed my own experience, and viewpoint, of this sim, which by the way, IS f- n fantastical, using just the materials already present online.

 

If you think that there is some gold standard of AAA games, that the Devs owe to you, and you believe you should hold their feet to the fire over it, you're wrong.

 

Some of the threats of "I'm leaving and taking the whole world with me" I read on here are really repugnant, ignorant, and reassuring, that the learning curve that

 

flight simulators demand of their user bases continues to keep those of us that do fly these things socially insulated from the quick scope thrill kill idiots of the world.

 

No insult to idiots intended.

 

And Happy Memorial Day.

 

~S~ Jupp-

 

 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Jupp

[LLv24_Zami]

~S~ Everyone,

 

The solution to the Single Player Campaign is found in mastering the Mission Editor.

 

Plain and simple, if you learn to write missions, you can build an infinite virtual "world of your own".

 

Flight Simulators are not a video game, they are a gymnasium for your grey matter. Learn "the ME".

 

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has gone through the process of doing exactly that.

 

There is enough information, as scattered as it is, online, to teach you to build up to competence, in a relatively short order.

 

There are a couple of us "fanboiz" working on the Technical Manuals, organized and revised specifically for Battle of Stalingrad. Time will see them released.

 

However, I have transformed my own experience, and viewpoint, of this sim, which by the way, IS f- n fantastical, using just the materials already present online.

 

If you think that there is some gold standard of AAA games, that the Devs owe to you, and you believe you should hold their feet to the fire over it, you're wrong.

 

Some of the threats of "I'm leaving and taking the whole world with me" I read on here are really repugnant, ignorant, and reassuring, that the learning curve that

 

flight simulators demand of their user bases continues to keep those of us that do fly these things socially insulated from the quick scope thrill kill idiots of the world.

 

No insult to idiots intended.

 

And Happy Memorial Day.

 

~S~ Jupp-

 

 

 

Well that is not a solution. I dont have time or will to learn and make my own campaigns. I just want to play them.

 

Salute to the idiots

[Cybermat47]

~S~ Everyone,

 

The solution to the Single Player Campaign is found in mastering the Mission Editor.

 

Plain and simple, if you learn to write missions, you can build an infinite virtual "world of your own".

 

Flight Simulators are not a video game, they are a gymnasium for your grey matter. Learn "the ME".

 

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has gone through the process of doing exactly that.

 

There is enough information, as scattered as it is, online, to teach you to build up to competence, in a relatively short order.

 

There are a couple of us "fanboiz" working on the Technical Manuals, organized and revised specifically for Battle of Stalingrad. Time will see them released.

 

However, I have transformed my own experience, and viewpoint, of this sim, which by the way, IS f- n fantastical, using just the materials already present online.

 

If you think that there is some gold standard of AAA games, that the Devs owe to you, and you believe you should hold their feet to the fire over it, you're wrong.

 

Some of the threats of "I'm leaving and taking the whole world with me" I read on here are really repugnant, ignorant, and reassuring, that the learning curve that

 

flight simulators demand of their user bases continues to keep those of us that do fly these things socially insulated from the quick scope thrill kill idiots of the world.

 

No insult to idiots intended.

 

And Happy Memorial Day.

 

~S~ Jupp-

 

 

 

 

Um... flight sims are video games... and please, don't call people who play shooter games "quick scope kill idiots".

 

And what what you're suggesting really isn't a solution at all. A lot of the people here only have a few hours to play the game, thanks to work and family, which are both more important. I doubt that they want to spend the few hours they have to relax by slaving over creating missions to play later. It takes me weeks to make missions with the easy-to-use Cliffs of Dover full mission builder (never mind all the research), and I have a lot more spare time than most of the people on this forum.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Cybermat47

[Livai]

The solution to the Single Player Campaign is found in mastering the Mission Editor.

 

For my part I learned how to create missions with the Full Misson Editor. I have the time to learn. The only problem that I have reached his limit. I build some huge mission to get out much as possible benefit from the huge maps. But at the point were I wanted to include the dynamic part realisic close as possible the Full Mission builder just limited me. I not expected this from a powerful tool that limit my Ideas.

 

Mastering the Mission Editor is not the problem for me. I have problems with his limits.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Superghostboy

[Feathered_IV]

I find it's not the mission, its often the things in between the missions that can make all the difference...

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I find it's not the mission, its often the things in between the missions that can make all the difference...

 

I tend to agree with this.

 

Are you recording your flights/missions somehow in the mean time?

 

We are doing a dead is dead type campaign but online and recording our sorties. When killed we reset the figures to zero for the current life. It's a lot of fun and very frustrating when you get killed but at the same time it adds a whole tonne of immersion and tension to each flight. I had one the other night where I was damaged and RTB, I was pontificating about a high speed no flaps landing as I suspected I had no rudder but at the last moment threw caution to the wind and dropped flaps & gear and turned in to a landing. My nose reared up and I lost control 250m above the ground (just short of final) and punched out just in time...it was a tense time waiting for my parachute to open

 

Online of offline I think it's the little details that can make the difference.

[216th_Jordan]

Indeed, when you fly a 45 minutes sortie in La-5 on ground attack mission with 6 m/s wind and overcast while its getting dark and 109s that keep dropping on you for almost your entire flight, where you eventually in an evasive manouver are able to shoot one down and after 10 minutes of searching finally find the train you are supposed to destroy and destroy half of it and cripple the locomotive, but cannot destroy it, because its hard to keep your already damaged plane steady in the wind and your ammunition is running out but you then make it home in one piece, again attacked by 109s that followed and you get a 'Mission not completed' message and 60 points (the message that you would have failed): that's rather frustrating.

[3instein]

Noticed this in Dev Diary 82,

 

"Absolutely brilliant briefings were suggested by Feathered_IV and FlatSpinMan. Their ideas of immersion into the atmosphere of frontline routine and ruthless battles could be a great addition to the game missions. But I believe there are a lot of talented pilots on the forums who would be happy to share their creative approach with the community. That’s why I suggest you all to write and publish your creative briefing descriptions for any type of IL2BOS mission in this specific section. We’ll be checking it regularly to pick the ones that we like most and the best of them will be added to the official game build.

 

As we have already seen, for some time now, brilliant ideas from Feathered and others, I really would like to know why none of these are in the game?

 

"We’ll be checking it regularly to pick the ones that we like most and the best of them will be added to the official game build."

 

Mick. 

[Danziger]

I like Feathered's approach. It's like reading a good book only you get to be in charge of the action. And for us SP people with jobs and families it's like a book in how you can read a bit when you have time and pick up where you left off later on.

[SharpeXB]

It's like reading a good book only you get to be in charge of the action.

That's exactly how I feel about games and especially sims. There's a few cases in the career modes where I literally read a book about a particular squadron and play the career at the same time.

[Grancesc]

I like Feathered's approach. It's like reading a good book only you get to be in charge of the action. And for us SP people with jobs and families it's like a book in how you can read a bit when you have time and pick up where you left off later on.

While I was reading possumkiller’s words the typical profile of a SP came to my mind:

- He/she is involved in his/her professional career and in his/her family life

- Successful and hence with limited time for hobbies

- Interested in history and/or techniques and anxious not only to learn the history or technology from books but to also to experience it in a virtual world.

- Is financially strong and willing to spend good money for his hobby.

- Plays mainly campaigns and QME

- He's not a poster in forums but looks now and then in so far as the time allows it.

The SP-group has a very large population. It was its superior size and financial strength that established the success of the original IL-2. The modding and skins people prepared the field but it was the SP-group who bought the game and its add-ons to thousands. The SP-community was and still is a huge source for recruiting pilots for virtual Squadrons. It is the entry point for the MP-segment. Ignoring this large population of players is IMO the first step towards the death of the flight sim genre. It is in all our interests to strive for good SP-campaigns, since they provide the financial foundation for everything else.

Although we got with the last DD 98 a bit of hope with regards to an improved campaign mode, Developers, Modders, Skinners, Squadron Leaders, MPs and SPs stand up and fight for a good campaign. Each in his own way

This discussion runs also on the German and Spanish Forum.

[Feathered_IV]

In MP, you need to come away from a game feeling like you've won something.  In singleplayer, you need to come away feeling like you were a part of something.

 

 

Over christmas I played a game called This War of Mine.  An amazing game.  Using some very simple tricks, the developers are able to make you care deeply about your small group of people and you feel the loss of any one of them.  You get to know them.  Or rather, get the illusion of knowing them.  A few words here and there and your imagination fills in the blanks.

 

Hovering tool-tips are not new. BoS has them in the controls menu.  The technology is there.  So too are randomly selected lines of text.  The RoF campaign can select and display a random quote from a text file called cites.cfg at the begining of every mission.  I should know, I wrote them  

 

So in this theoretical campaign, I was thinking how a similar bit of smoke and mirrors might help bind the player to their in-game world and the characters within it.  Giving squad members a name is all okay, providing you go out of your way to memorise them.  Giving them a voice is far more effective.  You don't need to give their life story.  Just imply that they have one.

 

Below is a couple of shots from the proposed squad-management screen.  As you hold the cursor over a particular pilot they display either a general comment or one based on their skill, experience or level of fatigue.  Again, the idea is to imply just enought to fire the imagination. 

 

 

 

Diversity is they key though.  The more comments the better.  Having to read the same handful of lines over and over again would get old very quickly.

Instead of hiding the Cites.cfg in an encrypted file somewhere, it would need to be accessible so other people can add more to it over time.

 

So a hypothetical me downloads another 60 lines of quotes from another member which I can then copy and paste into the bottom of my own Cites.cfg

I don't proof read them first.  I want them to be a surprise.

 

It appears their author has a sense of humour...

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Feathered_IV

[No601_Swallow]

Some excellent ideas, F_IV.

 

Would it be a lot of work to assign to each "cites" quotation a value representative of particular qualities, eg. earnest, naive, sarcastic, insubordinate, heroic, nervous, etc? Then, perhaps each fictional squad member could have a 'personality trait', so - assuming there's some sort of random way of picking the comments - they could each have a increased probability of displaying comments with the appropriate value? Maybe too complex.

[Finkeren]

Thanks for the heads up about This War Of Mine Feathered  That game had flown under my radar. I'm downloading it as I write this. Looks amazing.

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks for the heads up about This War Of Mine Feathered That game had flown under my radar. I'm downloading it as I write this. Looks amazing.

Congratulations Finkeren, I hope you will enjoy it. For such a simple game it's very clever. It can tear you apart sometimes though.

[Igitur]

A top rate independent contract C++ programmer charges about $100,000 per year in the U.S.  PWCG for BoS could be developed at a cost of about $50,000 (1/2 man year) by two full time programmers in appox 3 to 4 months.

 

 

If true, that's interesting. Should an agreement be found with 1CGS, 20 guys investing 2500$ each in this game's development could design and build their own dreamt SP campain and implement new campain mechanics. I think many people here would gladly make all the historical research for free, and this very thread gives an insight of what an excellent SP campain should look like. Anyone interested ?

 

 

 

Over christmas I played a game called This War of Mine.  An amazing game.

 

 

Yeah, This War of Mine. I've purchased that game 6 months ago. I still couldn't make my mind up to playing it, but I know I'll have to.