Flying the BoS Dream campaign - SP inspiration, Singleplayers only

[Finkeren]

I wonder that a game from the 1990 did this. The maps where much bigger. Impressive Campaign & Ideas. Maybe it was easier to programm at this time?

 

SWOTL was my first big CFS-crush as well, but yes: It was far, far easier to program in  terms of map building and physics-wise it was not a simulator by any means. The campaign itself, while engrossing, was extremely simplistic and the missions connected to them were no bigger in terms of number of planes than BoS is today.

 

Rowans BoB and BoB II might be closer to what I'd expect from a modern flight sim campaign, but honestly I'd much prefer a career mode with campaign elements, which seems to be what Feathered is going for.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Finkeren

[Georgio]

My first 'real' flight sim was Dynamix's Red baron circa 1990. The SP aspect was excellent with a real feel via daily updates that your flights and fights were making a difference, if they can do that on a few 5.25" floppy discs and Dx33 processors 25 years ago then I'm sure the devs could do better with today's tech. It's just a matter of funding no more, no less.  

[Livai]

It's just a matter of funding no more, no less.

  

And why we see again how easy and simple it is to improve the Quality from the current BoS Campaign how Feathered_IV did this to made the BoS Campaign more enjoyable? Why this great ideas and improvements come from people that do this for free?

 

I wonder why Feathered_IV still not get the Mods On Mode?

[AndyHill]

I don't want to derail the discussion since this is really interesting stuff and you have good ideas for improving the campaign, but if you don't mind me asking I'd like to know why you're so adamant on making the hypothetical campaign purely single player? I hope you don't consider me a heretic for fantasizing about flying something like this with a few buddies of mine.

 

On another note, I don't personally see problems with dynamic campaigns allowing you to change the course of war by yourself if you happen to be a Hans-Erich Rudelmann and capable of making a dent in the Red Army all by yourself. To me an ideal dynamic campaign would allow you to have exactly the kind of role you would've had in reality, which of course to most of us would be not that big, but that would be because of your capabilities, not because of limits in the campaign design. I also think it should be up to the campaign designer (not the campaign engine designer) to decide if he wants to mimic historical force compositions and such or create a more hypothetical scenario that could be balanced so that a significant contribution by a squadron or even a single pilot might have some effect.

 

Of course the ideal campaign is not a realistic goal, but I think a dynamic campaign should in principle allow for about a human-sized contribution in the events with the actual size depending on the player. Perhaps more importantly, the campaign should probably put focus on about squadron-sized goals so that you might well win or lose battles whether or not that would have much effect on the entire war effort.

[Urra]

I'm a perfect world a miracle would happen where Feathered_IV would work with someone like Coconut to make what you describe happen. Coconut has a pretty interesting online mini campaign starting, so it's worth checking out when it's online. You spawn online and get instructions to escort an AI bombing raid...etc, depending on the mission (3 linked I believe so far)..it's a start.

[LukeFF]

And why we see again how easy and simple it is to improve the Quality from the current BoS Campaign how Feathered_IV did this to made the BoS Campaign more enjoyable? Why this great ideas and improvements come from people that do this for free?

 

I wonder why Feathered_IV still not get the Mods On Mode?

 

Umm...you do realize that F_IV's screenshots are just that - screenshots?   He's not programmed a new campaign generator for the game. 

[BraveSirRobin]

Coming up with fantasy campaign ideas is the easy part.  Finding the money to pay for the programmer hours is the tricky part. 

[Finkeren]

Coming up with fantasy campaign ideas is the easy part. Finding the money to pay for the programmer hours is the tricky part.

There are loads of people who would gladly pay 20-40$ for a proper career/campaign mode and many who would even preorder.

 

Maybe you could even set up a kickstarter? Unlike some other developers I'd gladly trust 1C/777 with my money, because they have a track record of actually delivering.

[BraveSirRobin]

There are loads of people who would gladly pay 20-40$ for a proper career/campaign mode and many who would even preorder.

 

Maybe you could even set up a kickstarter? Unlike some other developers I'd gladly trust 1C/777 with my money, because they have a track record of actually delivering.

 

There are lots of people complaining about paying $90 for the game that we got.  The campaign that Feathered is describing would probably add $50 to the price of the game, and virtually no one will pay for that.  

[Toxin1]

Perhaps a poll!! 

[BraveSirRobin]

You don't need a poll.  Create a kickstarter and get some contributions.  Then take the +/- $1000 (probably an overestimate) you get and see what the developers can do with it.  That should make the issue very clear.

[Livai]

Umm...you do realize that F_IV's screenshots are just that - screenshots?   He's not programmed a new campaign generator for the game.

 

No, if you use RoF Campaign/Career Mode + Mods on Mode to generate what you call -screenshots

 

There are lots of people complaining about paying $90 for the game that we got.  The campaign that Feathered is describing would probably add $50 to the price of the game, and virtually no one will pay for that.

 

Far away from the reality. We have Steam Sales with -50% off and We have paying $10 for the game! The Unlocks Problem was bigger than the complaining about the price!

 

Funny, because you can use the same RoF program code from RoF for BoS to create a BoS Campaign and Career mode the same that you see in RoF. BoS is RoF.  The point is they just removed this RoF program code from BoS like they did with the Mods On Mode, Career Mode and Custom Graphic Settings.

 

There is nothing about paying more for a good Campaign for example how Feathered did or how the RoF was. We already paid twice for the same RoF texture, RoF program code........ and for that what was removed, too. I wonder if I forget something?

[LukeFF]

 

 

No, if you use RoF Campaign/Career Mode + Mods on Mode to generate what you call -screenshots

 

(Sigh)

 

You just don't get it, do you? He_didn't_program_anything to get those screenshots. It's all a mock-up.  

[Feathered_IV]

He_didn't_program_anything to get those screenshots. It's all a mock-up.

That's right. I'm no programmer and these are just concept sketches based on what I've seen that RoF and BoS can do already. Modern campaigns seem very light on ideas so I am doing these in the hope that someone might take them and run with it.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

And we love it! I'm not even an SP guy. Keep em coming F IV.

Edited May 22, 2015 by HerrMurf

[csThor]

I still search where are the factories that produce ammo, oil, fuel, planes..... where is worth to defend them or to throw a present from above.

 

For the most part they're far outside the scope of the maps we fly on. Stalingrad (and to some degree Leningrad) were the two grand exceptions in the East as there were a number of specific factories still operating in both as long as possible. However cramming all kinds of "supply" or "production" into one maps as a gamey crutch is just as much a fail in my eyes as the current "campaign". I think we all must understand that we can't do "strategic" targets on maps that are able to depict a tactical air war at the most.

 

If you really want to utilize supply lines and supply interdiction you need to look at these things from the tactical perspective. Which means supply depots (size according to unit size [army - corps - division]), supply lines (railways & railheads - roads) as well as means to transport supplies (trains > truck columns etc). This would be a much more realistic perspective and system than trying to cram factories (which for the most part would have been in the hinterland and not relevant to a tactical simulation) into maps this "small". Remember SWOTL's map was several times bigger than the Stalingrad or Velikiye Luki maps here.

[Caudron431]

Feathered, fantastic ideas, you really know what the single players like in a sim!

 

We definitely need someone like you to make the single player dimension of this sim live and compare with the rest of it that is so good ! With only half of all the things you propose i would play this game 200% more than i do now. I really hope the team can do something to help you!

Edited May 22, 2015 by KosmoGol77

[LukeFF]

That's right. I'm no programmer and these are just concept sketches based on what I've seen that RoF and BoS can do already. Modern campaigns seem very light on ideas so I am doing these in the hope that someone might take them and run with it.

 

Yep, and I think your ideas are excellent! I hold out hope that we'll see something similar to your concept one day. 

[Gunsmith86]

^^Me too!

[KodiakJac]

There are lots of people complaining about paying $90 for the game that we got.  The campaign that Feathered is describing would probably add $50 to the price of the game, and virtually no one will everyone would pay for that.  

 

There, fixed   Campaigns like Feathered is describing have been the backbone of every combat flight sim since the beginning of time.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I think the reality is somewhere between virtually no one and virtually everyone would pay for a well crafted SP campaign. Many would. Outside of that, I really hate it when people "fix" quotes. Just make your counter argument without the condescension.

[BraveSirRobin]

There, fixed   Campaigns like Feathered is describing have been the backbone of every combat flight sim since the beginning of time.

 

No, you didn't fix it.  No one will pay for that.  Campaigns like the one he described are the type the put game developers out of business.  

[BraveSirRobin]

Seriously, launch a kickstarter and then take the $1000 you raise and see what it gets you.  

[Feathered_IV]

Campaigns like the one he described are the type the put game developers out of business.

Everything I've put down so far is just an incremental step from what the Rise of Flight campaign and the game's general gui can do already.

[IRRE_Belmont]

No, you didn't fix it.  No one will pay for that.  Campaigns like the one he described are the type the put game developers out of business.  

At least, he's trying to make the game better, isn't that what a decent community is supposed to do ?

The level of negativity here is impressive, truly 

[Finkeren]

Campaigns like the one he described are the type the put game developers out of business.

Yeah, just like making the campaign in Forgotten Battles put Maddox out of business, they really should've stuck with the static campaign of the original IL-2...

[Dakpilot]

If you are talking about Dgen dynamic campaigns, they were not made by Maddox but by third party, the Linear traditional campaigns were nothing special it was the user made ones that made IL-2 shine, the  DCG campaigns are also third party, the decent linear campaigns from 1946 were third party included in the game, the good campaigns for CloD were third party...some sort of pattern there?

 

Even the default DGEN campaigns were pretty plain, again it was user made ones that most have fond memories of, Desastersoft have said that they will no longer make Campaigns for CLoD due to smaller interest than expected and large amount of work.

 

In all flight sims it is the community made campaigns and effort from people like Feathered (and many others) that have driven things forward not the Dev made missions, PWCG another case in point, most switching to that instead of the Dev made Beta career in RoF

 

Most Campaigns are a labour of love with huge amount of historical research and intense work to make good, traditionally something that Dev companies have a hard time doing and justifying any return on time spent, it is a sad case of economics, especially when a talented 'user' then makes a better more historical and more fun work, that blows the 'company' stuff out the water.

 

It is when a bit of collaboration from Dev and user happens that great stuff is produced

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Skoop]

^ what he said

[LukeFF]

Yeah, just like making the campaign in Forgotten Battles put Maddox out of business, they really should've stuck with the static campaign of the original IL-2...

 

That campaign was largely created by the work of a third-party (Starshoy), not 1C.

[BraveSirRobin]

The level of negativity here is impressive, truly 

 

Negativity has nothing to do with it.  It's reality.  The kind of SP campaign that will make people happy is going to be obscenely expensive, or it will be done by 3rd party volunteers.

[Feathered_IV]

Just to repeat for you robin,[Edited]:  Everything I've put down so far is just an incremental step from what the Rise of Flight and BoS campaign and the general gui can do already.  I have never mentioned reams of historical unit numbers and designations, moving fronts or dynamic mission generation.  Nor have I made any wishful reference to new AI, larger units or any one of the seemingly limitless improvements that you feel compelled to object to.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Bearcat

[BraveSirRobin]

Just to repeat for you robin, 

 

You don't have to repeat anything.  Your belief that the campaign that you want would be relatively easy to program is a fantasy.

[BraveSirRobin]

By the way, I'm not opposed to a better SP campaign, but SP campaigns have a nasty habit of destroying software developers.  You're probably going to have to wait until they have become established and have enough money to do what you want. [Edited]

Edited May 25, 2015 by Bearcat

[BraveSirRobin]

[Edited]

Edited May 25, 2015 by Bearcat

[Finkeren]

BSR: Will you please tone down the attitude.

 

Practically all of us who comment on this thread are people who genuinely love BoS as a sim but find the SP lacking.

 

Feathered is presenting his personal vision (and yes, it is a 'fantasy' - at least for now) and a lot of people agree with his ideas and advocate that they gradually be implemented in a future campaign mode.

 

Noone is trying to 'bring down' 1c/777 or destroy BoS, quite the contrary. And I think most of us (but not you apparently) trust the devs not to set out on a task that will bankrupt the company. If anything the devs have proven that their business model is fairly solid and that they can achieve a lot with limited resources.

[JtD]

Keep on dreaming and presenting those dreams, Feathered_IV (and others). I'm interested, and it's good input for developers. A good campaign (which doesn't necessarily have to be limited to SP) would be very welcome here.

[simplyjames]

Feathered_IV keep it coming you're makin cool stuff, this is a great thread.

 

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks guys.  Even if there is no massive changes to the campaigns, a few more mission templates would be a good thing.

 

Even better if the devs took them out of the encrypted GTP files and made it possible for users to add more.  Players could use customised mission templates that featured aircraft and object numbers that suited their hardware, and not have to use a system optimised for the lowest performing computers.

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Feathered_IV

[IRRE_Belmont]

Thanks guys.  Even if there is no massive changes to the campaigns, a few more mission templates would be a good thing.

 

Even better if the devs took them out of the encrypted GTP files and made it possible for users to add more.  Players could use customised mission templates that featured aircraft and object numbers that suited their hardware, and not have to use a system optimised for the lowest performing computers.

 

Now THAT'S a campaign i would play 

[Livai]

Your belief that the campaign that you want would be relatively easy to program is a fantasy.

 

 

Fantasy

 

Each development is based on the old program code that you extend. There is nothing made from scratch. Who said that there is a rewrite needed? I just put the whole RoF Career Mode program code into BoS and add to the BoS Game UI a new Section call this like I want. And the finial lap I do with .lua scripting inside the .gtp folders. Finished is the BoS Career Mode.

 

The same way like it is possible to turn the RoF WWI Career Mode into a RoF WWII Career Mode.

 

The Devs just removed this RoF Career Mode program code and not wanted to include it to BoS because they wanted to made something from scratch where they can add the Unlock System. And this current BoS Campaign is just perfect for this current Unlock, Plane Loadout, Weapon Loadout and Skins Loadout System. And this BoS Style into the RoF Style is possible but take a lot work to rewrite.  And this time they seem don't have or have other ideas what they hide from us.

 

The best way to be best cost effective is what I said above create a new Section inside the BoS Game UI and put the RoF Career Mode like it is into BoS.