On the matter of morality

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I don't like shooting chutes. When someone mentions it all I think about is some pilot landing on the ground in a heap of bloody rags

 

That's exactly why I think it should be possible. I remember how disgusted I felt when it happened to me.

[Zettman]

Only if chute shooting is possible you can take honor in NOT doing it. try seeing it this way. If it's possible you can roleplay your vitual pilot much better, cause if it's not possible showing that you are a honarable pilot wouldn't be possbiole also. Only if its possible you can feel morality "superior" over an enemy pilot who just who just chute shot someone from your team but you didn't the same to him. Or you can enjoy your revenge roleplaying the hate your virtula pilot could not overcome in that moment.

 

Zettman

Edited August 28, 2013 by Zettman

[6S.Manu]

So you never met 3xx squadron online!

Probably they are not in my "circle" of squads (the ones I like to fly with or against) :-)

 

Anyway really, I never think to the "virtual pilot" as a body with flesh and blood. Usually in 1v1 training I aim at it just to piss off the opposite pilot (just to have fun).

 

I think some of you take this "game" too much seriously (historically talking). I like also cheap games as Chivarly Medieval Warfare or WotR, stabbing and butchering people... In RL this was far worser than killing a pilot in his parachute.

 

These things only make me feel sorrow when I see them in some good historical movie: "Das Boot" is one of these... but it doesn't prevent me from playing Silent Hunter (killing dozens of poor sailors).

 

 

Edited August 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[BlitzPig_EL]

I've flown against the Poles online before, chute shooting is their normal operating procedure, as was the real Polish Squadron's in real life.

 

Big deal, I'm still here to type about it.

 

It's a game... get over it.

[II./JG27_Rich]

That's exactly why I think it should be possible. I remember how disgusted I felt when it happened to me.

Well who ever does is going to do it and people who don't like it won't. I will just bail at 300 meters. Getting kicked from servers for straffing bases is crazy to me though. How on earth are you going to run a Battle of Britain or an Operation Bodenplatte mission properly without shooting up bases? This is the only flaw the Spits VS 109s severs have in my opinion. It's one of the best ways to catch the enemy off guard and also it's a good way to pounce on the raider if he's not careful.

Edited August 28, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[6S.Manu]

I've flown against the Poles online before, chute shooting is their normal operating procedure, as was the real Polish Squadron's in real life.

 

Big deal, I'm still here to type about it.

 

It's a game... get over it.

 

Right.

 

Many years ago two 3xx guys on Spitvs109 kept firing at me as I spawned on my base (could not even start the engine): there was only us in the server, so I've spawned on another airbase and kicked both their a$$es.

 

If they were the same pilots you fought against I can say that more than a squad procedure it's a matter of a$$holeness.

Edited August 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Mac_Messer]

So you never met 3xx squadron online!

I confirm that. The minus rating didn`t really matter since there were whole squads performing chutekills. Although it did a good job of showing who can`t tell a difference between real life war and a game. I don`t fly with or against such douchebags. Those people who feel nothing doing this I have nothing against. Having said that, I often dealt with people who outright said they hate a certain nationality hence they chutekill. Maybe you`re (not you, Uther) one of them or maybe not, but I choose to avoid playing against such people.  Shooting an unarmed human figure just rubbs me the wrong way, leaves a foul taste.

 

For me it`s a question of resources. The minute the pilot bails out, he`s immune to my guns. All I care is his aircraft being destroyed. For this reason I think vulching is a valid tactic, both when my adversary is taking off or landing. That said, if an online war parser gave me a kill (and a -1 to enemy resources) for an aircraft that would ditch, I let him go most of the times.

These things only make me feel sorrow when I see them in some good historical movie: "Das Boot" is one of these... but it doesn't prevent me from playing Silent Hunter (killing dozens of poor sailors).

You don`t say. Last time I played SH I didn`t see any sailors, just heaps of broken metal sinking. Is there a mod for this game that introduced sailor human figures?

[6S.Manu]

You don`t say. Last time I played SH I didn`t see any sailors, just heaps of broken metal sinking. Is there a mod for this game that introduced sailor human figures?

 

No mods for that as far as I know: in my imagination there are "virtual sailors" in those ships.   

 

Sure to me it would not be a game-changer feature. 

Edited August 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Mac_Messer]

No mods for that as far as I know: in my imagination there are "virtual sailors" in those ships.   

 

Sure to me it would not be a game-changer feature. 

Probably because there should be no virtual sailors. Drowning or burning. Totally unnecessary for such a game. I know some people like to see other humans suffer but there should always be firm boundaries to that.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Hmm so if we ever do get a map with proper naval units, along the general line of thinking it would be then perfectly ok to put down

a hospital ship, or any ambulances seen on the road.

 

Yes I remember 3XX squadron, they where not welcome on many servers.

 

Even though the fellow in the chute was a moment ago in the plane a combatant, it does have a bit

of a foul taste, to wait and pick him of when he is in the chute. Sort of like sinking life boats to me.

And thinking of SH IV I have and many times life boats in front of my guns and could of blasted them.

[FTC_Karaya]

Even though the fellow in the chute was a moment ago in the plane a combatant, it does have a bit

of a foul taste, to wait and pick him of when he is in the chute. Sort of like sinking life boats to me.

And thinking of SH IV I have and many times life boats in front of my guns and could of blasted them.

 

I find it very disrespectful online, "adding insult to injury" as they say. You dont have to be friends with everyone but show a bit of respect and you too will be respected. Its like watching Tiger Woods win a golf tour and at the award show seeing him flip off his competitors.

 

And to be honest I find the compulsive behaviour of a select few online towards their personal most hated nationality #1 way more troubling than what some in here make of my thoughts about a flight sim.

[6S.Manu]

I know some people like to see other humans suffer but there should always be firm boundaries to that.

 

Exactly. 

There could be players who ask for them because of the "immersion" issues: can you listen to them? "Hey! Are these ships empty? Are the sailors so dumb to not jump in the water?"

For the same reason there are people asking for blood in the cockpit as the pilot is wounded.

 

I think sometimes people should work more with their imagination. In Silent Hunter even if sailors are not visible, in that sinking ship virtual persons are actually dying. They could have virtual families at their virtual home, who knows.   

 

But, as I said before, I realize that I'm not hurting anyone otherwise I could not play that game.

 

[FuriousMeow]

So it's less a morality issue and more of a you don't like it when it happens to you so it should be removed topic. Fair enough, make it an option to have it enabled or not and you can run a server the way you see fit.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

I find it very disrespectful online, "adding insult to injury" as they say. You dont have to be friends with everyone but show a bit of respect and you too will be respected. Its like watching Tiger Woods win a golf tour and at the award show seeing him flip off his competitors.

 

And to be honest I find the compulsive behaviour of a select few online towards their personal most hated nationality #1 way more troubling than what some in here make of my thoughts about a flight sim.

Absolutely agree, especially thinking of certain pilots that then leave "friendly" remarks, that definately spured friendly feelings towards those people!

But as FuriousMeow mentioned the option of switching it on or off on the servers would be one of the best solutions. And the servers with that setting set to off

will then not see the likes of 3XX so friendly exchanges of compliments will not happen too much.

 

[JG4_Greif]

I remember a mission on Spit vs 109 where I took a fw-190 on a mission to attack ships on the Norway map. I sank a ship while destroyers and battleships where firing at me. Somehow I managed to surive the attack with a lot of damage to my plane. Engine damage, big holes in my wings, but i tried to bring the plane home. Suddenly I see two Spits coming in from my 6. I decided to jump out of the plane as I couldn`t do anything to fight them and guess what? One of them killed me while I was hanging on my chute. As you can imagine I wasn`t very amused and left the Server.

 

As this is a game I can choose with whome I want to play. If such players are know, and they will be known sooner or later, I can choose to not play on that server or play on their side if there are no other server aivailable. I don`t care on which side I fly I like the planes on both sides.

 

I see this as a sports. I don`t shoot at chutes and don`t shoot at heavy damged planes. I like the thrill of a good dogfight.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I'm always amused when the subject of "morals" comes up in a game that simulates war.

 

If you cannot draw the distinction between what we do in a game, and real life, then you should not be playing in the first place,

 

The way I understand this, the relationship between playing the game and experience the moral dilemma of shooting a helpless person is tied up in immersion. Developers have asked for immersion ideas, and I personally like to play the game as "me flying in WWII", to the degree I stop campaigns if I am killed. With that angle to gaming, chute killing is repulsive.

 

I know a lot of people, particularly on-liners, fly this game for competitive reasons. Immersion, realism and mission design only enter into such an angle to the degree it influence their ability to collect points. In that regard I suppose chute-killing is a relevant strategy. Each to his own I suppose.

[FuriousMeow]

I know most people fly this game for competitive reasons. Immersion, realism and mission design only enter into such an angle to the degree it influence their ability to collect points. In that regard I suppose chute-killing is a relevant strategy. Each to his own I suppose.

 

I fixed it for you. Everyone plays for points. There aren't enough grains in the sand to count how many times campaigns are complained about because the enemy keeps running away, the enemy flights aren't encountered enough, there are too few enemy flight numbers, time acceleration to get to the next target because 4 hours of flying straight and level is boring, etc.

 

No point in segmenting, immersion and realism go only so far when boredom sets in. Points have little to do with chute shooting.

Edited August 28, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[II./JG27_Rich]

I remember a mission on Spit vs 109 where I took a fw-190 on a mission to attack ships on the Norway map. I sank a ship while destroyers and battleships where firing at me. Somehow I managed to surive the attack with a lot of damage to my plane. Engine damage, big holes in my wings, but i tried to bring the plane home. Suddenly I see two Spits coming in from my 6. I decided to jump out of the plane as I couldn`t do anything to fight them and guess what? One of them killed me while I was hanging on my chute. As you can imagine I wasn`t very amused and left the Server.

 

As this is a game I can choose with whome I want to play. If such players are know, and they will be known sooner or later, I can choose to not play on that server or play on their side if there are no other server aivailable. I don`t care on which side I fly I like the planes on both sides.

 

I see this as a sports. I don`t shoot at chutes and don`t shoot at heavy damged planes. I like the thrill of a good dogfight.

Right why should a server be fine with that and not be fine with bases being straffed. Hello to Bendwick btw from Richie he could hit anything in that 190

Edited August 28, 2013 by II./JG27Richie

[nynek]

I remember a mission on Spit vs 109 where I took a fw-190 on a mission to attack ships on the Norway map. I sank a ship while destroyers and battleships where firing at me. Somehow I managed to surive the attack with a lot of damage to my plane. Engine damage, big holes in my wings, but i tried to bring the plane home. Suddenly I see two Spits coming in from my 6. I decided to jump out of the plane as I couldn`t do anything to fight them and guess what? One of them killed me while I was hanging on my chute. As you can imagine I wasn`t very amused and left the Server.

 

As this is a game I can choose with whome I want to play. If such players are know, and they will be known sooner or later, I can choose to not play on that server or play on their side if there are no other server aivailable. I don`t care on which side I fly I like the planes on both sides.

 

I see this as a sports. I don`t shoot at chutes and don`t shoot at heavy damged planes. I like the thrill of a good dogfight.

 

Dear Greif ... Next time You about to choose a server make sure that all enemy planes are:

- inferior to Your crate

- lower than You

- without ammo

- with 1% of fuel

- above heavy concetration of friendly flak

 

end of the joke

 

With me is different. The moment I get shot while in the chute I open a can, smoke a smoke and COMEBACK with the vengeance counting on that during my hopeful killing spree I get the bastard.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Dear Greif ... Next time You about to choose a server make sure that all enemy planes are:

- inferior to Your crate

- lower than You

- without ammo

- with 1% of fuel

- above heavy concetration of friendly flak

 

end of the joke

 

With me is different. The moment I get shot while in the chute I open a can, smoke a smoke and COMEBACK with the vengeance counting on that during my hopeful killing spree I get the bastard.

Hmm and thinking of what went on, on hyperlobby, those not successful in their vengeance with their plane, took it via TS and Chat........

That is why I prefer the approach filter out the chute-shooters and you have a enjoyable match. Worked fine with IL2 should work fine with BOS

[nynek]

Hmm and thinking of what went on, on hyperlobby, those not successful in their vengeance with their plane, took it via TS and Chat........

That is why I prefer the approach filter out the chute-shooters and you have a enjoyable match. Worked fine with IL2 should work fine with BOS

 

Are You talking from Your personal experience?. 

I prefer rage fighting to the ballet astronaut boom and zoom backstabbing at 720 by 480 resolution.

Chute shooting, strip vulching, kill stealing IS part of the game.

You have to simply do everything You can to not to be a victim.

And remember , there is always offline option.

[FuriousMeow]

Someone has blown a gasket.

[Tektolnes]

 

Chutekilling can come back to bite you on the ass as some German pilot found out after doing it in front of Richard 'Bud' Peterson...

Edited August 28, 2013 by Tektolnes

[Rjel]

Chutekilling can come back to bite you on the ass as some German pilot found out after doing it in front of Richard 'Bud' Peterson...

 

I've heard that story many times. In the circumstances that Peterson described, I can understand his reaction. I'm afraid many others here won't.   

Edited August 28, 2013 by Rjel

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I've heard that story many times. In the circumstances that Peterson described, I can understand his reaction. I'm afraid many others here won't.   

 

I think everyone here can understand his reaction in REAL life, though i dount i will have the same feelings if someone shoots my mate in his chute while he is sitting in his underpants flying a sim at home.

[76SQN-FatherTed]

I think everyone here can understand his reaction in REAL life, though i dount i will have the same feelings if someone shoots my mate in his chute while he is sitting in his underpants flying a sim at home.

Slightly disturbing that you picture your opponent sitting in his underpants, but anyhoo...

 

Back to the OP.  There seem to be two issues here.  The first is to do with how one feels about recreating a ruthless act.  My view is that, yeah, it's just pixels, but most of us whinge on forums about how true-to-life various aspects of a CFS are, so why shouldn't we extend that to emotional impact?  There's a lot of chat about immersion: if you're immersed in the game, then surely you should have some sort of stab of conscience when you  kill someone in cold blood? For example you're not doing anything wrong in reality if you strafe a cow in IL2, but I would suggest that if you have no sort of niggle at the back of your mind about it, then you've got no imagination.

 

The second, unrelated, issue is what it means to shoot a parachute, game-wise.  This may seem a bit strange, given the above paragraph, but I don't understand the fuss about this.  You get shot down and you bail out.  If someone shoots you during this sequence of events, how does it affect your in-game experience? To me, getting PK'd, de-winged, de-engined, or set on fire are all the same thing - I'm done and going to hit re-fly.  If someone wants to shoot at my parachute whilst I'm doing so, then bully for them.

[crossfade]

Holy shit 

 

This is crazy every day on many different forums i see people go on about flight models paint schemes etc etc because it is more realistic.

Well guess what war is hell and if a piece of an airplane falling from my last kill can take me out so can a pilot jumping out of said airplane (ever here of a birdstrike?) i don't shoot at pilots that bail out myself BUT if i see a load of paratroopers jumping out so that they can harm my fellow countrymen well thats another story.

the last thing i want to hear from is the pc police these things happen in war situations end of story if you cannot stomach it play farmville.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I assume if a person came onto the server and started chute shooting, the word would get around fairly quickly. I expect pilots on team speak would organize themselves fairly quickly and give the culprit a bit of a virtual flogging!

 

I've never seen it happen in the  CoD servers I've been to, but I guess anyone who wishes to indulge in the practice would quickly get to realize there is a thing called natural Justice.

[Mac_Messer]

Exactly. 

There could be players who ask for them because of the "immersion" issues: can you listen to them? "Hey! Are these ships empty? Are the sailors so dumb to not jump in the water?"

For the same reason there are people asking for blood in the cockpit as the pilot is wounded.

 

I think sometimes people should work more with their imagination. In Silent Hunter even if sailors are not visible, in that sinking ship virtual persons are actually dying. They could have virtual families at their virtual home, who knows.   

 

But, as I said before, I realize that I'm not hurting anyone otherwise I could not play that game.

Sorry, those are exactly the boundaries I`m talking about. An act of killing a human being should never be a thing of routine and no "immersion" wishes should change that. For this reason I agree with you that people should use their imagination. When playing SH I sometimes zoomed in on the damaged vessel and observed the damage. Next thing was the cracks in the hull when it was already under water. The sound of the cracking hull gave me nightmares.

[Sokol1]

If it was good enough for the USAAF it's good enough for us.

 

 

Ah, they are only taking close ups to send for girlfriends.

 

Sokol1

[Mac_Messer]

I've never seen it happen in the  CoD servers I've been to, but I guess anyone who wishes to indulge in the practice would quickly get to realize there is a thing called natural Justice.

We are observing just that. An 3xx squad infamy carrying over to the nextgen multiplayer flightsim. And a well deserved one at that.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Interestiing thread, from what I have read from memoirs this sort of discussion happened to pilots on both sides. Personally no, I don't think I'd shoot at a helpless pilot, it was his machine I was after not him, however would I buzz him? Sure! If its safe to do so, would be a bit embarrassing to then hit the silk moments later after getting nailed.

 

I can understand the cold hard mentality people may form, if over enemy territory you know he is likely to be back in the air killing your people, perhaps even the next day or afternoon. Over occupied territory? Whilst listening to Masters of the Air a pilot scrambled away from his crashed P-51 before it got strafed by an enemy a/c (is this the same thing? I think its close enough). If you have lost friends and family you may not see them as human beings and therefore target the enemy in any shape or form.

 

Perhaps we can visit this topic in a year or so? See how much attitudes changed, and also if people are honest perhaps see who says they won't ever shoot a parachute and end up doing so, plus vice-versa.

[Heywooood]

another old Il2 chestnut - chute shooting...good times

 

we who play at war,  play in the virtual world the same way we would play in the real one...some of us would kill in this manner for killings sake, some for the objective of winning the day/battle/war...and some would draw the line.

 

it is as it should be in any good combat flight simulation -  a reflection of who we are in this mirror of reality.

 

good thing its only a mirror where we dont end up dead, or having to deal with being actual killers for the rest of our lives - just a brief pang in the lower guts and a 'what if' moment lol

Edited August 29, 2013 by Heywooood

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I fixed it for you. Everyone plays for points.

 

Most perhaps, but not everyone. I have a few mates who never bothered with points, and some of the guys I used to fly with on-line (that was before the Madam had twins) didn't bother with them. So why you are likely right about it being very common, it is not universal.

[Matt]

Just don't shoot at parachutes if you don't like it and laugh at those guys who shoot you while hanging on a parachute and shoot them down next time before they get a chance to do so. Maybe you even get the chance to bounce that guy who is going for a parachute, because he's too focussed on that.

 

It's a simulation, allows people to do what they want. Way better than disallowing things that might be considered immoral by some.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Give the host of a server the option of setting chute shooting yes or no, and the matter is settled.

Simple as that. If you do not like the settings of that particular server, well there should be plenty of others.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Give the host of a server the option of setting chute shooting yes or no, and the matter is settled.

Simple as that. If you do not like the settings of that particular server, well there should be plenty of others.

 

I would think being able to set the points, positive or negative (or 0), for shooting chutes would be even less intrusive.

[6S.Manu]

Sorry, those are exactly the boundaries I`m talking about. An act of killing a human being should never be a thing of routine and no "immersion" wishes should change that. For this reason I agree with you that people should use their imagination. When playing SH I sometimes zoomed in on the damaged vessel and observed the damage. Next thing was the cracks in the hull when it was already under water. The sound of the cracking hull gave me nightmares.

But if we look at any wargame out there, they are all about killing men as "routine". In some games you only see the "platoon icon" (and so according to "morality" these are good game) but in others you need to shoot single men and most of the time there are bloody results: in Red Orchestra the gore level is very high.

I think that since the days of "Doom", most videogamers are not easily impressionable: by now the only thing that shock me are real videos of dying/dead people... youtube is full of "mortal accident" videos, and even if I can't see the drivers they chills me.

 

We can talk about RoF too: there you have to shoot right to the pilot, and most of the time you see him looking at you. But even if the pilot wasn't modelled (ghost pilot) still I can't forget the images I saw on a video (search for "Dogfights: Deaths of the Great War ("Ave Maria"; Pavarotti)": watch out you sensitive people): that's the result of the crash as I "fire" to the plane.

 

The only reason that keeps me "playing" such "games" is the fact that I realize, like Furbs said, that the opposite player is probably "sitting in his underpants flying a sim at home".

Edited August 29, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I have never played a flight sim in my underpants :D

[76SQN-FatherTed]

I have never played a flight sim in my underpants :D

 

I always play flight sims in my underpants - plus my other clothes as well, of course.

Edited August 29, 2013 by FatherTed