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Karaya

On the matter of morality

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I do not know if there has been an official statement yet but I would like to know if shooting parachutes will be possible in BoS, in any case I would vote against it. AFAIK Cliffs of Dover does not have a collision/damage model for parachutes and to be honest it has never felt unrealistic to me or as if I was missing something just because I cannot shoot helpless pilots in their chutes.

 

Now I know that there are some who like to throw around phrases such as "it happened in real life so it should happen in BoS too" or "its war, get over it" or even better (my favourite) "war is hell". But I think these people are somewhat disillusioned, BoS is still a simulator and not real life, sure we are getting closer with every new generation of simulations but IMHO there are things that we should not strife to recreate. I can live without the ability of shooting farmers and their horses to pulp, I can live without being able to shoot parachutes and I can live without the ability of seeing refugee columns bombed to gibs on the ground. I do not see anything enjoyable coming from it.

 

What is the general opinion on this issue?

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Considering about 1/3rd of all the  crashes i had in old Il2 were collidign with chutes, I can see  gameplay  in it.

 

I think people need to realize its a GAME,  and we are trying to shoot people. Yes we are already  being AGRESSIVE and violent in a simulated way. I  think its   not logical to make such artificial  limitations  to pretend that what we are doign is not already part of a WAR, the human  maximum representation of savagery. 

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I think that there should be a collision model for parachutes, not so much to be able to shoot them down (won't do that personally), but because if it could be a hazard for your plane IRL it also should be so in the sim.

 

Of course your plane should not explose if hitting one, but still it could damage some parts. Probably the chances of hitting a parachute are pretty low, but it could happen, it happened to Finnish pilot Eino Luukkanen during the winter war, while attacking a russian bomber at point blank range, apoor crewman jumped and hit his airplane...

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If you don't want to shoot parachutes you don't have too.

But give at least the option to do so for those who want to.

Everybody plays the game in his own way. Isn't that great?

 

By the way, I never understood the debate in the simming/gaming world about shooting at parachutes.

What does it matter. Setting villages a fire, rocketing passenger trains, shooting paratroopers etc.

It all ain't nothing more than pixels on a screen.

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If you don't want to shoot parachutes you don't have too.

But give at least the option to do so for those who want to.

Everybody plays the game in his own way. Isn't that great?

 

By the way, I never understood the debate in the simming/gaming world about shooting at parachutes.

What does it matter. Setting villages a fire, rocketing passenger trains, shooting paratroopers etc.

It all ain't nothing more than pixels on a screen.

 

It is a matter of good taste...

 

Want some animated people on the ground being blown to bits or burning to a charred skeleton when bombing cities/towns, too?

 

Where do we draw the line on graphical violence?

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Want some animated people on the ground being blown to bits or burning to a charred skeleton when bombing cities/towns, too?

 

As long as these people models don't have such a realistic damage model? And as long it will be Pegi 10+ we won't see any.

 

That's why I kill people and play war in the sim but not in real life. It doesn't hurt anybody. The rest is inside your brain.

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I want it in game, wouldn't cry if it wasn't but if it was my decision I'd put it in. It happened historically after all, frankly I'd even prefer if there was a system where a killed pilot hurts your team more than a pilot who lands safely behind his lines, like in 1946. That factor was big enough in the war to warrant a place in the game.

Adds another element to the game as well, you bet your arse I'm getting on a vendetta to take whoever shot my chute down out. That I do see as enjoyable, dogfights are incredibly fun when it's a bit more personal.

 

I frankly don't see how you could compare it to shooting a farmer and his horse or bombing a refugee column. That's a false analogy.

 

 


Want some animated people on the ground being blown to bits or burning to a charred skeleton when bombing cities/towns, too?

Graphical depictions of the horrors of war aren't bad for a game about a war, as I see it anyhow. See Red Orchestra 2 where your dying enemies will have their leg blown off and you hear them screaming for their mother as they slowly pass away. Only time any FPS made me feel like "Oh crap.." rather than just another shooting gallery.

I'd argue that's more tasteful than pretending it was anything else.

Edited by vyyye
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It is a matter of good taste...

 

Want some animated people on the ground being blown to bits or burning to a charred skeleton when bombing cities/towns, too?

 

Where do we draw the line on graphical violence?

 

Don't dramatise it too much.

We definately won't see burned children in the street, heaps of dead bodies or soldiers in the snowy fields with missing limbs.

Otherwise it will be too realistic and nobody wants to buy it. Not to mention age rating.

I've read there was one war game (forgot the name of it) which was too realistic. Users didn't like it and developers decided to turn things back in the next update.

 

Talking about good taste.

Many people around the world don't like the idea at all of turning a war into a game thing.

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I do not know if there has been an official statement yet but I would like to know if shooting parachutes will be possible in BoS, in any case I would vote against it.

 

What is the general opinion on this issue?

 

Really mate. Its a game at the end. Just a game. Today, you can blow up somebodys head in shooters, rip the parts of his bodies. Shooting parachutes (graphicaly) is far less scary or bloody than crap which is served in most games teens play. I dont have a problem with that as long its just in a game. Blasting ppl in games is fun for many but that doesnt mean they would slaughter their neighborhood after a session online. There are other factors which causes that. It is an old and well chewed topic.

Edited by Tvrdi

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 AFAIK Cliffs of Dover does not have a collision/damage model for parachutes and to be honest it has never felt unrealistic to me or as if I was missing something just because I cannot shoot helpless pilots in their chutes.

 

 

I've never shot anyone in their chute in Cliffs, nor have I been shot in mine by a player but I have definitely been shot by AAA after I've ejected.

 

I guess we are quite a moral bunch then!

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I used to assume there was some kind of silent "honor code' among pilots, and shooting an ajected enemy and his chute was considered like a blasphemy, so I've never, ever shot a chute in any previous game.

Edited by J4Scriszeri
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Really mate. Its a game at the end. Just a game. Today, you can blow up somebodys head in shooters, rip the parts of his bodies. Shooting parachutes (graphicaly) is far less scary or bloody than crap which is served in most games teens play. I dont have a problem with that as long its just in a game. Blasting ppl in games is fun for many but that doesnt mean they would slaughter their neighborhood after a session online. There are other factors which causes that. It is an old and well chewed topic.

 

This thread is only about BoS, dunno why you bring other games up. I play FPS games myself, never had a problem with them. But you have to admit that there's a difference fighting other armed people and killing them or musing over wether or not to turn a non-combatant dangling in a chute into mincemeat. It is (for me) similar to shooting PoWs and just rotten.

 

For me a pilot is fair game as long as he stays in his aircraft, even if he tries to emergency land, he could bail out any time after all. But as soon as he has left his plane I just leave him alone, but thats just me.

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I don't get the whole "morality" issue concerning parachutes. When we fly in a CFS we are playing at war (with emphasis on "playing"), and thus we are ofc imagining to be shooting at other human beings.

 

Having objects with no collision or damage model floating around would be detrimental to immersion, so ofc we should be able to shoot down parachutes, if we so desire (not that I imagine that anyone would, I think it would get old, fast)

 

We don't need blood and gore in this sim to get the idea of the risks involved in jumping from an aircraft. The way it was done in the old IL2 worked just fine and an updated version of that would be sufficient.

 

BTW: I wonder what ppl who are against jumping aircrew having a DM want to do about pilots who jump out at too low altitudes? Should they just get up and look as if they're fine after landing or should they maybe disappear into the ground, so we don't have to look at their broken mangled corpses lying in the field?

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guy just bombed town in which my family lives, week after week, and if i see him jumping from airplane i just putt in flames i would shoot him, honor cods are for cartoons, books and movies

 

and i like to have that same option in game makes it more like real thing, i do it in game when i play bomber intercept, i do it in some fast food DF no rules servers when i wont more revenge on some one and players did it to me often it makes it more fun for me, i dont do it if server has rule not shoot parachute :)

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I frankly don't see how you could compare it to shooting a farmer and his horse or bombing a refugee column. That's a false analogy.

 

All three are examples of non combatants that are at your mercy without means to fight back, according to the Geneva convention these would all essentially classify as war crimes. You cannot abuse a person wearing a uniform as you please. Otherwise why even bother taking prisoners, we could just shot them all in the face and get it over with, ey?

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How about strafing infantry? Those guys are just standing there and can't do much about it.

It's a combat flight sim so as far as I'm concerned shooting chutes should be allowable.

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BTW: I wonder what ppl who are against jumping aircrew having a DM want to do about pilots who jump out at too low altitudes? Should they just get up and look as if they're fine after landing or should they maybe disappear into the ground, so we don't have to look at their broken mangled corpses lying in the field?

 

If you're not bale to jump out in time and get squished on the ground, then thats entirely your problem and self inflicted, not related to someone else taking your life hanging in a chute.

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No victory is complete without the opponent plane exploding or dead virtual manikin with a folded chute

No mercy! :biggrin:

Edited by JGzbV_Manni
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I like the idea of chutes not having collision models. It's a war crime, and I think war crimes are nothing one should strive to recreate.

 

If chutes are killable, I think the omnipresent stats should record chute kills separately, so that it is possible to keep chute killers away from servers where that behaviour is not welcome. Put them in the virtual brig where they belong for their virtual crimes.

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@JG4_Karaya:

 

Geneva convention? War crimes?  :blink:

It is a flightsim you know. We are not commiting a crime by enjoying a sim each and everyone in their own way.

 

By the way, talking about prisoners of war you mention.

Take some time and read what German soldiers did to the hundreds of thousands of Russian PoW's.

Read what Russian soldiers did to German PoW's.

Basically letting them die of exhaustion and starvation.

Edited by Uufflakke
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For a flight sim there is no need for gruesome imagery, but what should not be swept under the rug about aerial warfare (in WW2 particularly) is the huge amount of random carnage inflicted upon people who are completely defenseless, be they regular infantrymen, wounded soldiers or innocent civilians.

 

We don't need to be able to gun down collumns of civilian refugees (even though that did happen), but we do need parachutes to be modelled, and they should have DM like any other object in game.

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Geneva convention? War crimes?  :blink:

It is a flightsim you know.

 

By the way, talking about prisoners of war you mention.

Take some time and read what German soldiers did to the hundreds of thousands of Russian PoW's.

Read what Russian soldiers did to German PoW's.

Basically letting them die of exhaustion and starvation.

 

Exactly! And you want to recreate that for... fun?

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I like the idea of chutes not having collision models. It's a war crime, and I think war crimes are nothing one should strive to recreate.

 

You know what's also a war crime? Area bombing of civilian population centers. Yet it's imposible to imagine a WW2 combat flight sim without it.

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Exactly! And you want to recreate that for... fun?

 

Basically I'm not a parachute shooter but let everybody decide for himself how he wants to enjoy BoS ar any other game.

That is something you still don't seem to understand.

Please make a distinction between real life and virtual life. 

The way you want to have fun with a game should not be imposed by whoever.

Freedom you know.

That is what they fought for in WWII.

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Also, on the issue of it being a war crime:

 

Parachuting air crew weren't protected under the Geneva Conventions until 1977. In other words: Shooting a guy hanging from a parachute wasn't illegal in 1942. Paratroopers have never been protected and are specifically exempt from the protection under protocol I, article 42.

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You know what's also a war crime? Area bombing of civilian population centers. Yet it's imposible to imagine a WW2 combat flight sim without it.

How many combat flight sims you've played modelled civilians? My guess would be none. Might be because war crimes are nothing one should strive to recreate.

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Exactly! And you want to recreate that for... fun?

Like the others said dont impose your "white knight"  and " honor " view to all the people who enjoy combat flightsims in different way. Me for example, I like chuteshooting guys who take it that serious... thats real fun.

Edited by =VNVV=Stoyanov
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How many combat flight sims you've played modelled civilians? My guess would be none. Might be because war crimes are nothing one should strive to recreate.

Vitually all combat flight sims model civilian population centers. I've played several modern CFSs, that model civilian vehicles as well.

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Like the others said dont impose your "white knight"  and " honor " view to all the people who enjoy combat flightsims in different way. Me for example, I like chuteshooting guys who take it that serious... thats real fun.

 

Lol, no comment :rolleyes:

Edited by JG4_Karaya

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Vitually all combat flight sims model civilian population centers. I've played several modern CFSs, that model civilian vehicles as well.

There's a difference between a structure or machine and a human being.

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There's a difference between a structure or machine and a human being.

 

In a computer game? Is there really?

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So you have no problem PK a vitual human but you have with chute killing? If your moral is that high you will know that killing "people"is a bad thing....no matter how you do it

Edited by =VNVV=Stoyanov
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Morally wrong or just bad manners ?

 

Does it make a difference if it is just A.I or whether it is a bunch of pixels representing another human player ?

 

If the parachutist is armed with a pistol, does that make him fair game or only if you think he is actually shooting at you ? Is a parachutist allowed to take pot shots at an enemy aircraft but not the other way around ?

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I used to assume there was some kind of silent "honor code' among pilots, and shooting an ajected enemy and his chute was considered like a blasphemy, so I've never, ever shot a chute in any previous game.

Read in Marseille's biography where a British pilot shot down a parachuting pilot in their Gruppe. Obviously this was the subject on everyone's mind right after with varying opinions but the order was that no one should shoot down a parachuting enemy under any circumstance and the repurcussions for doing so would be severe. No matter if the Allies continued doing it.

However, it was said with a subtext in the form of "It's not like on the Eastern front where we are fighting animals" where, according to the pilots recently transferred from there, it was commonplace for parachuters to be shot at.

 

One look at Wikipedia and you can see there are numerous reported cases (on both front mind you) of it happening. Many thought ill of it, but it's hard to argue it never occured.

 

All three are examples of non combatants that are at your mercy without means to fight back, according to the Geneva convention these would all essentially classify as war crimes. You cannot abuse a person wearing a uniform as you please. Otherwise why even bother taking prisoners, we could just shot them all in the face and get it over with, ey?

You cannot make the distinction between a pilot in a combat zone who will get back to the front of he is able and a civilian in the form of a refugee? Really? I am not condoning shooting down parachuters, but I would not compare a pilot shooting down parachuters to anyone wearing uniform murdering unarmed civilians. Completely different leagues.

Nor do I think it's the equivelant of "shooting prisoners in the face". You are not a prisoner until taken captive, and you can bet your ass a pilot who has landed has no intention of walking to the enemy to turn himself in. If anything he is a soldier temporarily out of action. Could we stick to the issue at hand? The subject is whether you should be able to shoot down parachuters or not. It's not if there should be refugee trains to strafe or prisoners of war to execute.

Edited by vyyye
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In a computer game? Is there really?

Yes. As there are in movies or any other art. That's why movies where you disassemble a car get's a different rating then a movie where you do the same with a person. Or computer games.

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Parachutes should be shootable. Just like in IL2. It was very much stigamatized in the online community, but the option should be there. Let's you know a man's (online) character

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Lol, no comment :rolleyes:

Why? I repeat, its a game. For a sim/game, more troubling is shoulder shooting. Thats la bigger "morality" problem than somebody shotting a chute for fun. If thats what makes him happy without braking the server or online war rules...BTW, I personally never saw an online pilot shootin a parachute in online war. Never.

Edited by Tvrdi

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The way you want to have fun with a game should not be imposed by whoever.

Freedom you know.

That is what they fought for in WWII.

 

It is not my aim to force my moral views onto others, just trying to understand why some want it and making my point of view clear to others.

 

Also linking this sim to freedom and the sacrifices of millions is very far fetched, dont you think?

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