On the matter of morality

[FlatSpinMan]

But you're the one pulling what happens in a computer game into the realms of reality by saying it is morally wrong.

 

 

Anyway, it'S not so important really. You see it your way, I see it mine.  Wonder what the Devs will do.

[FTC_Karaya]

Why? I repeat, its a game. For a sim/game, more troubling is shoulder shooting. Thats la bigger problem than somebody shotting a chute fir fun. If thats what makes him happy without braking the server or online war rules...BTW, I personally never saw an online pilot shootin a parachute in online war. Never.

 

I saw a few, not going to mention names though, as it would just turn this thread into a flame war.

 

Overall however you are right, there were rather few such incidents but I think this was more likely related to the fact that you had a part of your "honor" score taken away if you did that (same for using wingtip smoke or nav lights), not because people felt it was unnecessary.

[Trooper117]

Dowding, head of Fighter Command, was known to have said that the Germans have every right to shoot at British pilots that have bailed out... after all, they would land and be back in operation again the very same day... Source, 'The Most Dangerous Enemy'

[Finkeren]

Discussions like this are indicative of exactly what's wrong with war-themed games and used to be wrong with war movies as well: A white washed romantization that puts two neatly defined groups of uniformed soldiers against one another in an honorable fight to the death. Completely glossing over the fact that suffering of civilians is an integral part of almost any war, and that atrocities are invariably committed by all sides (though in some cases, they are more deliberate and organised than others)

[Sokol1]

CLoD option is dumb.

I vote for colision and possibility to shoot at parachute, is fun.

It's like play War of the Roses and do some "executions".

No "moral drama" with this matter .  

 

Sokol1

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

I do not care if they implement it or not, never do any chute shooting anyway. In online wars and stuff this will be used for stats padding and outright abused to hell and back. It wll cause a lot of arguments. Still, up to devs how and what is implemented.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

This isnt a question of morality, you cant have that in a simulated world of aircombat, chute shooting is just something that pisses people off because their online pilot is killed, hence resetting their kill streak and ruining the Kill/death ratio, same as vuching aircraft on the runway or landing.

 

Me? i dont give a crap, il shoot you landing, taking off or in your chute and i expect the same to be done to me, though i dont go chute hunting on purpose because thats a good way to get bounced.

 

Ive been vulched taking off and landing loads of times, yep it pisses me off but my morals or the guys doing it are not offended.

 

The only time i wont shoot down a crippled plane or the chute is if i had a really good dogfight with someone and feel they dont deserve to have their online pilot get killed, but never for pretend morality.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Furbs

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I liked how they did it in online wars, your rating went through the floor into minus figures for chute killing, so everyone knew what a **** you were and treated you accordingly.

[FuriousMeow]

 pretend morality.

 

And that is exactly what it is. Virtual morality and virtual honor, might make you feel good playing the game but amount to diddly anywhere else.

Edited August 27, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Having said what i said, i dont think the devs should spend time on simulating civilian death and horror, not because i would find it offensive but because this is a flight sim and they have more important things to do.

 

If they did not have a collision model for chutes, i wouldn't be bothered at all.

[Sethos]

Shooting down parachutes was a fun pass-time in the original IL-2 

[Requiem]

Thinking about this brought to mind a vision of a pilot with his parachute, floating down to earth serenely watching the battle unfold around him...

 

Then of course he pulls out his personal weapon and starts blasting wildy at all of the enemy aircraft wizzing by. I wouldn't waste the effort to shoot  at people in parachutes, but I think they should still be fair targets in terms of being engageable/collidable within the game.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Requiem

[vyyye]

Thinking about this brought to mind a vision of a pilot with his parachute, floating down to earth serenely watching the battle unfold around him...

 

Then of course he pulls out his personal weapon and starts blasting wildy at all of the enemy aircraft wizzing by. I wouldn't waste the effort to shoot  at people in parachutes, but I think they should still be fair targets in terms of being engageable/collidable within the game.

It would be such a great gimmick to be able to whip your pistol out while parachuting. Doubt one in a million shots will have any effect at all, but that one time..

[Furio]

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I suspect that parachutes in CLoD haven’t collision because developers had technical troubles with that. I think that’s not easy to make a cotton sheet correctly wrap around a wing or plane’s nose.

Leaving aside technicalities, I strongly believe in options. Offline you don’t need to discuss with anyone your preferences, online you need consensus among players. In the end, you’ll have the option to join the server closest to your tastes (or less far).

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

The way I look at this as a whole is there seems to be a double standard when you compare games to movies, television, books and even documentaries. There are far worse things than games. I've seen terrible and I mean terrible rape scenes, murders and war crimes with all these types of media (didn't enjoy those moments) but I've yet to see any just as violent in games. When watching these uncomfortable moments I understand  that these are just stories or reconstructions of what might have happened and therefore I understand it is not real. I suppose someone could argue in a video game you are acting out these atrocities but much can be said about sitting there are watching people being raped or mass murdered in a film. There is actually no difference and in fact movies are much more visually graphic and with greater detail.

 

I can't possibly see what damage it would course to someone's mental health shooting down a virtual pilot's parachute. I've read it in books, I've seen it in films and me re-enacting it with a fellow virtual pilot is all just a bit of fun and yes it's even fun for the poor sod in the parachute because we all know and understand it's a game. I find it hilarious when one of my squad mates kicks off some banter when they've shot my parachute. And you know what, neither one of us has to go to a mental health unit afterwards.

 

This topic is ridiculous. 

Edited August 27, 2013 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[Uufflakke]

Having said what i said, i dont think the devs should spend time on simulating civilian death and horror, not because i would find it offensive but because this is a flight sim and they have more important things to do.

 

 

We won't see blood and gore in BoS like some IL-2 mods have. With blood spattered like tomato ketchup on the inside of the canopy. Or the dead rear gunner of the Po-2  biplane hanging out of the plane with blood all over the fuselage.

Remember also a sound mod where you could hear the gunners of a bomber scream when hit by bullets.

 

As far as I know no civilians will be included in BoS, let alone its death and horror.

(Still don't know what to expect of infantry and íf infantry will be included at all)

Read this thread what Zak (post #11) has to say about blood and violence in game:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/848-resource-collection-ground-units/

By the way that thread discusses also the shooting on civilians, animals, ambulances etc.

[StG2_xgitarrist]

Freedom you know.

That is what they fought for in WWII.

 

yeah, sure.....nice joke

[LuftManu]

This is Like Vulching, It like to have it, and dont set rules, for those who want to do it or not, I, ofcourse, I will not do it , morality and honour, (parachute killing/Vulching in Mp) ,But the this is a Simulation, I dont know if there are some more Stories like that B17 being scorted by the 109 that damaged it, But I am sure, Some pilots from all sides, Spent some time thinking about Killing an Innofensive Guy whitout possibilities of Defend himself.

 

The war can show how aggresive we are, but it can also show who of us can be more Human.

Edited August 27, 2013 by .-RDS-.Manu_vc

[BlitzPig_EL]

It was always a good gunnery and target acquisition exercise in old IL2 to see if you could shoot the bailing pilot

before he got his parachute deployed.

 

I'm always amused when the subject of "morals" comes up in a game that simulates war.

 

If you cannot draw the distinction between what we do in a game, and real life, then you should not be playing in the first place, and should seek some kind

of remedial therapy. 

[Trident_109]

I remember one of the first missions I flew in IL2. It was an intercept mission flying the 109 against IL2s and LaGGs. I downed a bomber over the water and decided to try to get a LaGG. After gaining enough altitude I engaged one and managed to dogfight it into an an advantageous position and shot at him. The LaGG stopped evasive maneuvers and I flew past him to continue on over land and maybe pick up another IL2 or so. While flying to my next engagement I watched the LaGG do long shallow counter clockwise circles into the ocean. It dawned on me that I killed the pilot and the plane was spiraling down under it's own power and empanage deflection.

 

Now, I think it's safe to say that most of us have an affection for WW2 history and maybe even admire a pilot's bravery in the life or death struggle of combat flying. It was that moment that made me think of 1942 and the real life and death struggle of Combat pilots. I can read books, watch movies, have discussions, but it was that brief moment while watching that LaGG circle into the ocean that cemented in my mind the life or death certainty of CF. I almost felt bad - a sort of remorse, if you will.

 

It sounds silly, I know. They're pixels on a screen, but for that moment I was in 1942 dealing with my own mortality verses the other pilot's mortality, who'd kill me if he had the advantage. For a brief moment I killed a pilot.... another person.

 

I've not felt that emotion since, with the exception of the first time I got PKd and my screen went black. I'm dead and it was just that sudden. I know I'm shooting a representation of war and combat flight so I have no qualms about shooting down other aircraft or even parachutes. I can choose to shoot them or not. Most times I refuse to shoot escaped pilots.

 

I don't think there is any way to simulate combat flying and not think of the human toll.

[Sokol1]

 

 

This isnt a question of morality, you cant have that in a simulated world of aircombat, chute shooting is just something that pisses people off because their online pilot is killed, hence resetting their kill streak and ruining the Kill/death ratio, same as vuching aircraft on the runway or landing.

 

What is need against players moaning is not dumb the game, is option for server turn OFF chat - at least between sides - serves only to discussions with "enemies".

 

Players in squad already use TS.

 

Sokol1

[TheNotoriousFNG]

I'm not a chute-shooter nor do I have any desire to do so but I'd like to see it as an option, especially having the capacity to collide with chutes as it was a hazard in real life. I'd like to see some form of penalty for killing someone in their chute, as it was a practice that was frowned upon/considered dishonorable and I'd like for the sim to reflect that, should this be an option.

[leitmotiv]

What is need against players moaning is not dumb the game, is option for server turn OFF chat - at least between sides - serves only to discussions with "enemies".

 

Players in squad already use TS.

 

Sokol1

 

I saw this on at least 2 servers that have old il2, and it was so good not being able to see enemy chat, less undesirable comments and more fun (in team chat you could see so guys not on ts could cooperate)

Edited August 27, 2013 by Yaklover

[Rjel]

I'm not going to force my views of morality on others. Neither am I going to pretend those same views should be used in a flipping game. I'm shooting pretend bullets into pixels, not real flesh.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Rjel

[TheNotoriousFNG]

I'm not going to force my views of morality on others. Neither am I going to pretend those same views should be used in a flipping game. I'm shooting pretend bullets into pixels, not real flesh.

 

Exactly. If this is to be a sim, the developers can choose what and what not to model. It seems that the devs wouldn't be interested in depicting graphic violence (in the name of rating and the fact most don't feel this is needed to be immersed in said title), but a pilot in their chute is a very real hazard and something that some may choose to attempt to shoot down. I'm in the group of hoping there will be more than "honor" lost for intentionally shooting down chutes should it be modeled, but I'm not going to be up in arms if chutes are "invulnerable".

 

Making this a question of morality is silly. At the end of the day, we're playing a video game to immerse ourselves in a world and our actions within that world are not a direct reflection of how we are in reality. If one cannot make that distinction, then yes, there is a serious problem but that's a completely different discussion. Chute-shooting/colliding should be modeled, as it was something that existed and I believe it would add to the immersion.

[Trooper117]

Shooting pilots who parachute to 'safety' should be allowed in game. It is after all something that happened.

If I were to see an enemy plane that was shooting at one of my pilots that had bailed, I'd go balls out to bring him down, much as I'd suspect I'd be doing if I saw it for real!

Can't get better realism than that!

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I do not know if there has been an official statement yet but I would like to know if shooting parachutes will be possible in BoS, in any case I would vote against it. AFAIK Cliffs of Dover does not have a collision/damage model for parachutes and to be honest it has never felt unrealistic to me or as if I was missing something just because I cannot shoot helpless pilots in their chutes.

 

Now I know that there are some who like to throw around phrases such as "it happened in real life so it should happen in BoS too" or "its war, get over it" or even better (my favourite) "war is hell". But I think these people are somewhat disillusioned, BoS is still a simulator and not real life, sure we are getting closer with every new generation of simulations but IMHO there are things that we should not strife to recreate. I can live without the ability of shooting farmers and their horses to pulp, I can live without being able to shoot parachutes and I can live without the ability of seeing refugee columns bombed to gibs on the ground. I do not see anything enjoyable coming from it.

 

What is the general opinion on this issue?

 

 

Actually I think what is much worse is where the virtual violence has been muted or dumbed down to acceptable levels. I believe that these sims/games should serve as a gentle reminder of the horror of war and as a history lesson. That's not to say that we should have brains spattered all over the cockpit but historical missions such as general carpet bombing of an area are partly representative of WW2. The same applies to the fact the Swastika has to be removed, yes I understand why, but in many ways it turns WW2 in to a competition rather than what it really was a nasty brutal fight for survival. When you look at FPS type games they glorify the violence and teach very little.

Edited August 27, 2013 by JG5_Emil

[AX2]

War is WAR !

You must shoot everything you have in your sights

Bad ?... YES ! ,  

A dead enemy is a friend will be lives ..  

 

Edited August 28, 2013 by Mustang

[LukeFF]

Parachutes are already shootable in the game, according to Loft. I asked him that very question when I saw the pre-alpha for the first time a few weeks back.

[RoboticPope]

I remember one of the first missions I flew in IL2. It was an intercept mission flying the 109 against IL2s and LaGGs. I downed a bomber over the water and decided to try to get a LaGG. After gaining enough altitude I engaged one and managed to dogfight it into an an advantageous position and shot at him. The LaGG stopped evasive maneuvers and I flew past him to continue on over land and maybe pick up another IL2 or so. While flying to my next engagement I watched the LaGG do long shallow counter clockwise circles into the ocean. It dawned on me that I killed the pilot and the plane was spiraling down under it's own power and empanage deflection.

 

Now, I think it's safe to say that most of us have an affection for WW2 history and maybe even admire a pilot's bravery in the life or death struggle of combat flying. It was that moment that made me think of 1942 and the real life and death struggle of Combat pilots. I can read books, watch movies, have discussions, but it was that brief moment while watching that LaGG circle into the ocean that cemented in my mind the life or death certainty of CF. I almost felt bad - a sort of remorse, if you will.

 

It sounds silly, I know. They're pixels on a screen, but for that moment I was in 1942 dealing with my own mortality verses the other pilot's mortality, who'd kill me if he had the advantage. For a brief moment I killed a pilot.... another person.

 

I've not felt that emotion since, with the exception of the first time I got PKd and my screen went black. I'm dead and it was just that sudden. I know I'm shooting a representation of war and combat flight so I have no qualms about shooting down other aircraft or even parachutes. I can choose to shoot them or not. Most times I refuse to shoot escaped pilots.

 

I don't think there is any way to simulate combat flying and not think of the human toll.

 

This here is the best post.   Most people will say they want as much simulation and realism as possible, so why not make more of how you as a ww2 pilot would actually feel about killing another human not just an ai or a human's avatar with limitless lives. So bailed pilots could be murdered but there would be a good reason for the player not to choose to, maybe also a good reason for the player not to want to cause death at all (avoiding cockpit/gunner shots, shooting engines), for realisticly this is probably how you would feel. How to simulate this is a good question, maybe by making friendly ai more likely to help out a nice guy while possible ignoring a murderer.  Maybe a murderer online could have an icon next to his name for a time, while a pilot that gets aircraft kills without causing a lot of death could get another icon.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I used to assume there was some kind of silent "honor code' among pilots, and shooting an ajected enemy and his chute was considered like a blasphemy, so I've never, ever shot a chute in any previous game.

 

I suppose it is a cultural thing. In some quarters shooting at chutes is done as a matter of course, in other it would never be done.

 

In one of my first sorties on-line in IL2, I came across an enemy flying straight and level. I got behind it and gave it  squirt, only to realize it had been shot at earlier, and the pilot was about to bail. I was close enough to see my MGs killing the pilot as he climbed out. I still fell kind of bad about it, despite it being a game. I have never been fired on when flying a SEOW-style on-line war. but have experienced two enemies jockeying over position to shoot my chute on on-line servers. Turned me off "Zekes and Wildcats" permanently.

[Creepermoss]

I'm somewhat ambivalent here. My objective in an aerial fistfight, is to remove your ability to shoot me down. Once your plane is no longer a threat, I'll go looking for one that is. If other folks get some thrill out of shooting defenseless pilots, that's their deal, and I don't much care. DMs for chutes would be nice, though, as I imagine an actual pilot would try to avoid them.

 

If anything, it seems like a better idea tactically to let him hang there, delaying his ability to launch another aircraft for as long as possible.

Edited August 28, 2013 by -JG2-Creepermoss

[Freycinet]

It is a matter of good taste...

 

Want some animated people on the ground being blown to bits or burning to a charred skeleton when bombing cities/towns, too?

 

Where do we draw the line on graphical violence?

I am always sceptical when other people want to impose their view of 'good taste' on me... It is the beginning of a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

[6S.Manu]

Probably I've never been killed by another player during an online campaign: most of the time it was the flak.

 

Anyway when I fight against an enemy airplane I don't think to its pilot as a living person: it's another guy like me, sitting in front of his desktop, who can't be hurt or "killed" by my weapons.

 

About chute shooting, I find it as an disrespectful action in an online campaign (where people tend to preserve their lives), but it's part of the "game". I know it was part of the war too, but I don't wanna think about that, otherwise I would not strafe enemy columns anymore.

 

So chute shooting is still IMO a good way to create rivalries in the game: just like in a online racing championship when you race against a driver who bumps you at every turn and finally throws you out. Many will remember that name and they will not be so gentle with him in the future.

For example I have a list of pilots who attacked me with offensive head-ons (no problem with the defensive ones). It's a way to motivate me as their KIA are more enjoyable than the normal ones.

Edited August 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[HagarTheHorrible]

One of the best bits of Microprose Gunship was the way ground troops reacted to being attacked by the players helicopter. Whatever the other deficiencies of the game killing ground troops was great fun. Considering the tactical nature of the aerial war on the Eastern Front ..................

[Panzerlang]

If it was good enough for the USAAF it's good enough for us.

[150GCT_Veltro]

War is war, simulation or not.

 

Allowed.

 

Gentlemen agreement is the right way as for penalty in a Tournement. You can do it but with a penalty in "honour points". It's a matter of rules and mission-campaign design as for the strafing - vulching.

 

During a SEOW campaign i did a massacre of paratroopers in Normandy. We had to stop them, and i did it even if it was quite embarassing. I had to because of mission design.

Edited August 28, 2013 by 150GCT_Veltro

[6S.Manu]

Probably I've never been killed by another player during an online campaign: most of the time it was the flak.

 

Edit: of course I mean by chute shooting.

Edited August 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Edit: of course I mean by chute shooting.

So you never met 3xx squadron online!

Edited August 28, 2013 by Uther

[II./JG27_Rich]

I don't like shooting chutes. When someone mentions it all I think about is some pilot landing on the ground in a heap of bloody rags

Edited August 28, 2013 by II./JG27Richie