Developer Diary, Part 81

[falstaff]

Zak said:

 

Well. in fact it is pretty much the same team that made ROF. And every decision that was made within game design of this project was dictated by the understanding that some of previously made mistakes must not repeat here and now.

 

 

Not repeating previous mistakes does not mean adding new mistakes instead

 

This time we're more close to reality and we estimate our possibilities better.

 

I hope you are right. Equally, the pressure near a release means that questionable decisions can also sometimes be taken

[Matt]

Yes.

And how can these unlocks be such a hot topic, folks? You hate them or you can't play without them?

Because without unlocks, you can't even drop bombs or fire rockets when flying a fighter. And most common loadouts for the ground-attack and bomber planes are turned into unlocks.

 

Fighters will do alright. The only unlock that might make sense when dogfighting are probably those armor plate stuff on the 109s. So yes, they are not even forced to fly SP in most cases, while practically everybody who is looking for more than a simple dogfight will have to play the campaign.

[FG28Kodiak]

Yes.

And how can these unlocks be such a hot topic, folks? You hate them or you can't play without them?

Simple you need a Unlock to make a Ju87 G1 out of a Ju 87 D3. You get a SC2800 bomb as unlock for He111 (that thing can destroy a enemy airfield with ease, i will not see this thing online, btw its absolutly unhistoric only a few exist). You can made a IL-2 into a true tank killer with a Unlock (37mm).

Dont think for fighters only.

[SKG51_Joker]

Yes.

And how can these unlocks be such a hot topic, folks? You hate them or you can't play without them?

 

Seldom that I heard such an ignorant statement!

What is your expectation:

Yess Sir, I totally agree Sir (despite in my opinion it is complete bullshit), Sir!????

 

 

Do you read your customers comments?

 

You can now ban me Sir, the cow had been milked, what else do you need.

Edited October 7, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

[Aracno]

Yes.

And how can these unlocks be such a hot topic, folks? You hate them or you can't play without them?

 

A) I hate the idea to be forced to something I dont like.

B) As a squadron member i hate the idea to force members to SP for playing Jabo missions together, as example.

C) I have seen your last update as a spit in to my eyes, making point A and B even more odious and tedious and forcing me even more in something you know  i dislike..

[IckyATLAS]

I think all this drama around "unlocks" of whom some are simply absurd others could be discussed, could be closed very simply.

I understand very well that you need to make money out of all those features.

I am a premium member right. I paid already 100 bucks. Fine tell me just how much for the full "Platinum" or "Diamond" package. Another say 100 bucks. Nice heh!

 

Okay I pay but, a big BUT:

 

NO MORE unlocks, all future extensions, maps, campaigns and planes are all included FOREVER.

 

Period.

[unreasonable]

Zak, I am sure very few people will complain about the absence of Belgian float-planes in BoS, but many of us are missing some of the human interest elements that made us care about our career pilots in RoF.

 

We do not all need a huge backstory, vast list of squadrons, etc, but without having a bare minimum of a named pilot and unit to provide a little continuity between missions, the missions themselves are unsatisfying and flying Dead-is-Dead is meaningless.

[1./JG42Nephris]

Dear Devs,

plz hear your customer base, even more in regards of your future products dont cut the band.

Just allow the compromise to allow enabling or disabling  unlocks in the DServer config.

A compromise is done by every side doing a step onto each other.

The community already accepted all the unliked points which were discussed before (given presets, skins, fmb, triple screen etc etc) but this one reached the boiling point now I guess.

 

 

In regards to reviews of the game at release time, you cant expect the most positive feedback if you treat with your foundation customers that way.

Everyone wants the game to be a success, but dont treat us in the way you do atm.

It is just a small step and a little option to the config, unlock=true/false , and I guess the walls would be painted white again.

The huge amount of international voices versus your decision in this point cant leave you cold that way it is supposed to do atm.

 

Up to that we should probably relax, and wait for next friday and maybe some changing decisions will be made in the "jour fixe" at your office, to discuss about this major issue with the community.

Edited October 7, 2014 by 1./JG42Nephris

[354thFG_Leifr]

Yes.

And how can these unlocks be such a hot topic, folks? You hate them or you can't play without them?

 

Come on buddy, read the thread since Friday's update. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Leifr

[Dakpilot]

The "can't play without them" issue has been explained in terms of mission design in other threads.

 

Of course, in air-quake scenarios the unlockable loadouts are unimportant.

 

Having winter camo as an unlock when we're flying on a winter map seems a strange design choice ...

 

I thought the mission design issue was simply an incompatibility between server update and the actual rollout of this update, what is the current problem?

 

Winter skins are pretty much the first unlock and achieved with 1-2 missions..when skins are user made and available this issue will fall away (anally historical but many aircraft in the theatre never got winter paint  )

 

bombs for jabo's are similar very early unlocks, everything else pretty much has historical loadouts as standard

 

I am not trying to argue about this just interested in the real facts of how not having the optional loadouts actually affect MP

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 7, 2014 by Dakpilot

[303_Kwiatek]

I would like rathe to see Developers working on bugs and sim improvements before relase (  FM corrections - expecially FW 190, gear and flaps damage and many other things need fixes) than focus on stupid system for  lock and unlocks mods.  These is just waste of time and suorces which could be used for more needed things.

 

Instead developers prefer to force customers to be happy with unnecessary things.  Bravo.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Kwiatek

[Dakpilot]

I would like rathe to see Developers working on bugs and sim improvements before relase (  FM corrections - expecially FW 190, gear and flaps damage and many other things need fixes) than focus on stupid system for  lock and unlocks mods.  These is just waste of time and suorces which could be used for more needed things.

 

Instead developers prefer to force customers to be happy with unnecessary things.  Bravo.

 

While I agree with the sentiment , I don't think the same  team that does FM/DM would be the same one who design and implement gameplay mechanics

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Matt]

bombs for jabo's are similar very early unlocks, everything else pretty much has historical loadouts as standard

The very smallest bombs are the very first unlocks. I think i needed 6 missions with the La-5 to get the 100 kg bombs. That's roughly two hours campaign, which would translate for me as 2-3 days just flying campaign and just flying one planetype.

 

All that not counting the tutorial.

[Livai]

There is one thing to keep in mind: Most likely (bad) development decisions are not meant as personal insults to anyone...

 

but we are not far away from them.

 

Just remember where the frist one comes out with a solution how to bypass this unlock system with the autopilot and game speed up time 4x - 16x. And how was reaction from them to the solution? Very quick! They removed very fast the 4x - 16x game speed up time from the game and removed the autopilot from normal difficult, too.

 

Personal I not care how someone play the game and if someone enable the autopilot and the game speed up function to unlock faster. But they care!!!!!!!!!!!

 

We lost

• Custom Realism Settings for Campaign Mode
• Custom Graphic Settings
• Game speed up time 4x - 16x

[FlatSpinMan]

Yes because from the game design point of view, they were means of jumping the queue, of getting ahead unfairly relative to others.

Whether you agree with the game design itself is a separate question.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Let's say that with a proper implementation of immersing the player to the SP campaign the unlocks would not have been such a big issue. They could have been field mods being available according to the historical dates, some freedom to choose a winter camo pattern to your plane from a few available etc. If you really would feel like joining a war raging in ranks of a chosen VVS or Luftwaffe Regiment/Squadron with crews, officers briefings and such it would make it more plausible to invest at least some time to the SP. The campaign now is a string of generated missions on a chosen plane, a merely tweaked QMB.

 

 To break it down a bit. Let's say I chose to play LaGG-3. I start by choosing part of campaign, my rank, plane and squadron of my liking. Then accordingly "transferred" to that field where they historically operated from during BoS. I would be a new pilot or older, why not, and given a plane. I could see missions for today, being assigned to them as wingman or leader depending on your Rank selection. With higher rank you could have some more effect on the mission than as a fresh rookie. How about some flights with a senior pilot to get a picture of the surroundings and some skirmishes with Ze Germans? Kind of a tutorial masked into "real" missions?

 

 Successfully completing missions would of course add to the possibility of getting medals and promotions etc. You could see the progress of other pilots, like in EAW for example, and see who are KIA/MIA or the new pilots. To make it feel you are WITH a squadron, part of it in this war. Transferring to new fields as battle progresses and all that. Missions should make you feel you are being a part of a big war machine, not winning it alone but doing your part. Falcon 4.0 reference!

 

 Now the MP and SP in relation to unlocks. The MP should have all the required stuff like we had before, to avoid problems with having a lot of players with different amount of unlocks available. The SP unlocks could be cosmetic and non-critical to MP. MP should have no unlocks, at all. Nobody wants yet another War Thunder or F2P game. If devs could add a co-operative mode to the mix the game would get an insane boost because it would cater to both pure MP players and also those who do like to do missions with friends. SP and MP crowd would both get what they look for: an enjoyable gaming experience.

[1./JG42Nephris]

Maybe the fixed Dev position has sth to do with vanity?

Perhabs the Unlock System was the second main feature of the complete game, which was coded throughout the past 12 months.

Right now the Community turns out to refuse it. So probably they must get used to the situation first, that their "lil one" needs to be adapted and reworked.

[wellenbrecher]

 

(I find some ofthe schizophrenic comments made my fellow simmers curious. On the one hand, people criticise the HUD elements for taking away immersion (even though it's so easy to turn these off) and yet at the same time bemoan the fact that  the missions are too hard or too long, that they can't "do" the missions on autopilot! So are the missions too easy or too difficult? Are they too realistic or not realistic enough? I can't square that particular simming circle!)

 

It's not that hard to understand the problem people have with this, is it?

Many of us do not want to be forced to play SP in order to be able to fully enjoy MP or QMB. Understandable so far?

 

But we are.

So many of us were looking for ways to make that forced experience as fast as possible to get it over with so we can do what we actually enjoy. Reasonable and understandable so far?

Lo and behold, they took two integral parts of that away from us. While the lack of autopilot can be adjusted for with autolevel, taking away the x16 is just a smack in the face.

 

It's not about realism, not about "too hard" or "too easy" (only in the way that AI isn't a challenge when compared to real humans) and not about what mode is inherently better. It's about being forced to do something one doesn't want to do. And then when one finds a solution to get the chore over with in a mostly painless way, one gets a smack on the fingers and waggle of the finger and a "deal with it" from the devs.

Understandable or should I rewrite this?

Ugh, you'll never see this anyway...

Edited October 7, 2014 by [JG2]G3_wellenbrecher

[Zak]

Do you read your customers comments?

You can now ban me Sir, the cow had been milked, what else do you need.

Yes, I do read customer comments, and have no intention to let yours be public for three days

 

A) I hate the idea to be forced to something I dont like.

B) As a squadron member i hate the idea to force members to SP for playing Jabo missions together, as example.

C) I have seen your last update as a spit in to my eyes, making point A and B even more odious and tedious and forcing me even more in something you know  i dislike..

That's a good review of the topic issues, thank you for it. You have my word that devs know this opinion, although I wish I could help you feel better about the features you don't like..

[SYN_Haashashin]

Example: mission designed for a bombing run, except if you haven't unlocked said loadout you cannot participate.

 

Bombing runs can be perfectly done with standards loadout, no unlocking needed. Not a big one 2 (250) for the Pe-2 and 4 for the He-111 but still, I dont see why it cant be done. That you want the 1800kg bomb to do just one bombrun and destroy a whole airfield??, thats another story.

[FG28Kodiak]

Could you use Bombs on a unlocked La-5?

A player should decide which loadout he will use (or a Mission Designer) online but not a single player Campaign unlockable thing.

I and it seems many others have a problem to be forced to play a mode, i don't wanna play. I am never played any campaign in Il-2 (1946). I am a pure online player, i use single player missions only for testing, now i am forced to play offline to unlock things that are usefull for online ground attack missions.

Edited October 7, 2014 by FG28Kodiak

[Lensman]

Zak, Jason & The Team.

 

I'm as concerned as anyone about some aspects of your design philosophy and its implementation BUT

 

It must be soul destroying to put a huge amount of time and effort into producing this application and then (rightly or wrongly) to have to endure massive criticism from your beta testers. I have every confidence that you are setting out to create the best, most entertaining, most fulfilling and most commercially viable product you can. You obviously have zero intention to annoy your customers. It's sad that despite those best intentions we are all experiencing difficulties.

 

Here's why I'm writing this. I love IL-2 BOS. I spend most evenings using it for a couple of hours in single player and (badly) multiplayer. I've learned a lot and been truly interested and enthralled by the artificial universe of flight that you've created. I'm a software developer and I know how very very difficult it must be to create a stable system like this with seemingly infinite variables and knock on effects. You have all done REALLY well!

Yes there is serious debate and opinions about the way ahead vary radically and sometimes you might listen a bit more BUT there's a LOT of people on Earth really really enjoying the fruits of your labour today and don't lose sight of that please.

[AbortedMan]

Example: mission designed for a bombing run, except if you haven't unlocked said loadout you cannot participate.

The are many other examples of locked loadouts meaning the mission cannot be played.

This is why the unlocks cannot work for a MP situation in any other scenario other than 'airquake'.

  

Bombing runs can be perfectly done with standards loadout, no unlocking needed. Not a big one 2 (250) for the Pe-2 and 4 for the He-111 but still, I dont see why it cant be done. That you want the 1800kg bomb to do just one bombrun and destroy a whole airfield??, thats another story.

Read my post linked below for an example of this unlock stuff effectively gutting one of the functions of an objective based mission. Of course, I wasn't able to report this issue before my input was rendered irrelevant, so I'm not sure if there is a workaround planned.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11359-multiplayer-dead/?do=findComment&comment=174168

[Nankeen]

I do not think you have seen what was in it yet.....

With all due respect, I was refering to this :

 

The change log for today's update is as follows:

Quote

- fixed the bug with skins unavailability;

- impossibility to finish tutorial and start the campaign was fixed;

- video cutscenes were converted to Bink to avoid stutters;

- autopilot feature was turned off for campaign mode;

- it's now possible to speed up time for x2 only;

- some corrections were made to the He 111 physical model;

- aim helper added in Normal difficulty;

- incorrectly low resolution at first start of the game via Steam was fixed

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

With all due respect, I was refering to this :

 

With all due respect....so was he.

[CIA_Yankee_]

For decades even simulations bore the possibility to switch time acceleration or a "sandbox" mode and leave everything up to the player.

 

Then came the restraints.

 

Silent Hunter V: permanent Internet connections, carreers ending in 1943, only one or two submarine-types. Result? Sh5 was a disaster, its successor is an arcadish browser game..

 

Let's not overgeneralize here... Of these changes, the only one that really caused significant negative outcry was the online singleplayer, a victim of Ubisoft being ahead of its time (singleplayer online is fast becoming the standard nowadays, in fact). Beyond that, like any of other sim out there, years of community support has turned SH5 in an excellent subsim. If anything, its single sub focus is a strength, making it just about the most immersive simulator I've ever played.

 

And pretty much the same will happen with BoS. There's been some questionable choices (limiting time compression to x2 is just annoying, if you ask me), but BoS' core simulation is still excellent and actually works smoothly straight out of the box. That's an impressive feat in an of its own.

 

Things will improve, and we _know_ they will since Jason explicitly said they are working with content creators to give us the sort of content we want (which no doubt involves a more immersive campaign, for example).

 

I do agree that it's a shame the devs aren't going to give us perfection out of the box, but the fact is they're putting their main effort in what actually matters: the core simulation. It _works_, it's stable, has excellent FM/DM and aircraft modeling in general, beautiful terrain and map, and is a breeze to install and get started in.

 

That alone is worth my money. Unlike CloD, I don't need to wait 2 years before something solid emerges. That's pretty damn good in my book.

[dburne]

 

Things will improve, and we _know_ they will since Jason explicitly said they are working with content creators to give us the sort of content we want (which no doubt involves a more immersive campaign, for example).

 

 

 

I do hope that is still the case, with the events of late I am concerned whether it is or not.

But as a SP guy, that is what I am hanging my hat on at this stage, as far as BOS is concerned for me.

[FZG_Merlin]

Zak, Jason & The Team.

 

I'm as concerned as anyone about some aspects of your design philosophy and its implementation BUT

 

It must be soul destroying to put a huge amount of time and effort into producing this application and then (rightly or wrongly) to have to endure massive criticism from your beta testers. I have every confidence that you are setting out to create the best, most entertaining, most fulfilling and most commercially viable product you can. You obviously have zero intention to annoy your customers. It's sad that despite those best intentions we are all experiencing difficulties.

 

Here's why I'm writing this. I love IL-2 BOS. I spend most evenings using it for a couple of hours in single player and (badly) multiplayer. I've learned a lot and been truly interested and enthralled by the artificial universe of flight that you've created. I'm a software developer and I know how very very difficult it must be to create a stable system like this with seemingly infinite variables and knock on effects. You have all done REALLY well!

Yes there is serious debate and opinions about the way ahead vary radically and sometimes you might listen a bit more BUT there's a LOT of people on Earth really really enjoying the fruits of your labour today and don't lose sight of that please.

 

nobody criticize hard work or whats been done otherwise. its a great achievement. 

 

I and other trusted fhem from day one dorpping a 100$ on something that wasnt even there. thats not the point.

 

 

we would just like them to understand that SP and MP are 2 very different things, and that some people have no interest in SP other than for very specific things (such as very specific training) and thats why the QMB is there.

 

We would like them to understand that it isnt possible for everyone to spend countless hours on something they really have no interest in, to later enjoy 100% of what they are interested in and purchased the game for.

 

Simple as that.

[Lensman]

nobody criticize hard work or whats been done otherwise. its a great achievement. 

 

I and other trusted fhem from day one dorpping a 100$ on something that wasnt even there. thats not the point.

 

 

we would just like them to understand that SP and MP are 2 very different things, and that some people have no interest in SP other than for very specific things (such as very specific training) and thats why the QMB is there.

 

We would like them to understand that it isnt possible for everyone to spend countless hours on something they really have no interest in, to later enjoy 100% of what they are interested in and purchased the game for.

 

Simple as that.

 

There was nothing in my statement that contradicted yours. :-)

[Feathered_IV]

Hi Zak, Hopefully there are more elaborate plans for the campaign in the near future.  Currently it does not deliver any real sense of "being there".  Can you comment about any upcoming improvements to immersion and level of detail?

[[TWB]80hd]

I dunno if any compromise has even a remote chance of being entertained, but here goes nothing...

 

You of course aren't going to please all of the people all of the time (or, in the sim world, apparently anyone, ever) but here is what I think would at least somewhat satisfy both parties (again, if that's even on the radar as something that those holding all the cards are interested in).

 

• Leave SP unlocks the way they are.  If you fly offline, you will continue to accrue points as you do right now.  2x points for Expert mode.
• Allow players to do their unlocks in MP.  Cut the point rate to 1/4 SP (normal difficulty servers) or 1/2 for Expert servers. (XP/Unlock rates adjustable, just examples)

This allows MP-only players to bypass the portion of the game they don't want to play, while still keeping the SP campaign the much faster-track to unlocking.

 

Everyone wins.

 

[Aracno]

Yes, I do read customer comments, and have no intention to let yours be public for three days

 

That's a good review of the topic issues, thank you for it. You have my word that devs know this opinion, although I wish I could help you feel better about the features you don't like..

 

 

Let me add, in our group we are all around/over 40, with work, family, often little child, exactly like some of you developer i imagine.

Now think this, after an hard working days, after the time for your wife and son finally you have a little spare time to play your favorite game.

But you cant do it.

You have to play, alone, a campaign you are absolutely not interested in.

Worst case, after done your duty (the campaign) it you can not organize a jabo mission with your friends because some have unlocked the things and some not.

And due to the few spare time this will stand for a long time before all your team mate are done with the unlock.

Add to this the lack of a mission builder for training your new players and you will understand why the majority of the old IL2 players that I know, and i know a lot of them, are playing BOS randomly and less than ClOD or Il2 1946.

Now i know we are not your main target but is so easy to make us happy, just leave the unlock for SP only and provide a FMB ASAP.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Aracno

[Dakpilot]

Example: mission designed for a bombing run, except if you haven't unlocked said loadout you cannot participate.

 

The are many other examples of locked loadouts meaning the mission cannot be played.

 

This is why the unlocks cannot work for a MP situation in any other scenario other than 'airquake'.

 

I don't want to call you out on this, but your example is unfounded, all bombers have bombs,..sorry but you are just perpetuating that myth..which is then repeated everywhere

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Krause]

I moved to a new home but still with no internet service installed yet. So I didn't even had any chance to play the campaign mode yet because of the silly "always connected" drm.. grrrr. I hope this will be changed with the full release.

 

Cheers

[Nankeen]

I purchased for the thrill of flying, and don't mind the campaign. I noticed, if you are a little more aventuras, like flying to the other sides airfield, that can be quite the experience Like the skins/ art work aswell, noticed the communities input. Thank you team, as a community member.

[FZG_Merlin]

I dunno if any compromise has even a remote chance of being entertained, but here goes nothing...

 

You of course aren't going to please all of the people all of the time (or, in the sim world, apparently anyone, ever) but here is what I think would at least somewhat satisfy both parties (again, if that's even on the radar as something that those holding all the cards are interested in).

 

 

• Leave SP unlocks the way they are.  If you fly offline, you will continue to accrue points as you do right now.  2x points for Expert mode.
• Allow players to do their unlocks in MP.  Cut the point rate to 1/4 SP (normal difficulty servers) or 1/2 for Expert servers. (XP/Unlock rates adjustable, just examples)

This allows MP-only players to bypass the portion of the game they don't want to play, while still keeping the SP campaign the much faster-track to unlocking.

 

Everyone wins.

 

This would be very acceptable in my opinion.

[Dakpilot]

 

Let me add, in our group we are all around/over 40, with work, family, often little child, exactly like some of you developer i imagine.

Now think this, after an hard working days, after the time for your wife and son finally you have a little spare time to play your favorite game.

But you cant do it.

You have to play, alone, a campaign you are absolutely not interested in.

Worst case, after done your duty (the campaign) it you can not organize a jabo mission with your friends because some have unlocked the things and some not.

And due to the few spare time this will stand for a long time before all your team mate are done with the unlock.

Add to this the lack of a mission builder for training your new players and you will understand why the majority of the old IL2 players that I know, and i know a lot of them, are playing BOS randomly and less than ClOD or Il2 1946.

Now i know we are not your main target but is so easy to make us happy, just leave the unlock for SP only and provide a FMB ASAP.

 

 

I understand, but really after one week this issue is over with. are all MP experts so good that two or three jabo bombing practice runs in AQMB really going to ruin possibly the next five years of MP entertainment? This system is also an excellent way of getting newcomers up to speed before they progress to MP as to the FMB I heartily agree but releasing it before game release and finalisation will only lead to compatibility issues such as with Dservers during beta...Everyone wants to play this as if it is the finished product before that time has come

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 7, 2014 by Dakpilot

[Potenz]

well the unlock system is not the best for a flight sim, and in fact is quite uninteresting for many.

 

but please there are so many out there over reacting to the unlocks, it's not the end of the world

 

you can still play online with no trouble.

 

just my 2 cents

[FG28Kodiak]

Yes, I do read customer comments, and have no intention to let yours be public for three days

 

Better than "I reseted all your XPs". 

Ops

Edited October 7, 2014 by FG28Kodiak

[Trooper117]

Will the people who believe that the answer to all of this is a simple 'Make unlocks for Single Player' but 'No unlocks for Multi Player' just give it a rest!

There are plenty of SP guys who don't want to do it either.... The only reason I'm doing it at all is because of the game in it's current state only gives me that option!

But given the CHOICE (a beautiful word don't you think) I'd rather not be messing about with unlocks, restrictions, or any other functions I thought I would never see in a serious flight sim with an IL2 lineage...

I'm only doing it because I've convinced myself I'm an adult, and that I should be seen to be acting like an adult, but the latest patch has almost got me convinced otherwise...