Developer Diary, Part 81

[kaboki]

 

This sim is about more than just deathmatch. It is about the history, the difficulty of flight, the challenges of navigation, all manner of things. Aviate/Navigate/Communicate as they say.

 

Oh, and the "great campain" does really give us that. Get a grip!!

[Trooper117]

Give it a couple of days chaps... it'll sort itself out

I have so many other games I like playing I'm just going to take some time out and play something else for a bit.

Everyone of us has different ideas on what we want or expect from our hobbies, and its going to be hard for the devs to please all of us,

In a years time we will all still be here remarking how great the Afrika/Med addon is!

[FZG_Merlin]

Then that would make flying against AI using autopilot lamer still. I don't understand why these MP folk are making such a fuss. It doesn't show any sense of stoicism or self respect that in two days of a year long development some have shown that they have no patience or sense of proportion over the issue. The first response is to slam down their toys and storm out of the room, or lose all self respect by trying to game the system to achieve benefits which (even if they are unfairly distributed) are not earned in the same way as those who play by the rules which have been laid down for everyone.

 

We have a system where (regardless if you like the criteria or not) everyone gets to earn the prestige and/or equipment for the game via working on the same tasks. For veterans of the game, such progress should be swift, so though they are advantaged by their skill they are not unfairly advantaged over those developing skills. It makes sense, and this kind of thing is required for building on-line community which is inclusive of all skill levels.

 

Seeing veteran MP pilots greedily exploiting loopholes in the game to get all the unlocks has disheartened me about the flight sim community. I had imagined these aces to be mature and level headed types who would consider their formidable skill as an a priori benefit over newbies, and gracefully accept reduced loadouts as a form of handicap that their skills would allow them to neutralize. If they wished to dabble with the campaign for the occasional unlock when nobody was about online then why not.

 

Instead I have seen hysteria and veteran players throw away all sense of immersion by completely exploiting AI to do the work for them to feed their impatience. This is the kind of behaviour I would expect from spoilt kids on F2P games, rather than the over 40's audience this title has attracted. It is the same poor sportsmanship that fills servers with 109 pilots until it is completely unbalanced and there is nobody for them to shoot at.

 

This sim is about more than just deathmatch. It is about the history, the difficulty of flight, the challenges of navigation, all manner of things. Aviate/Navigate/Communicate as they say. Members of the community are working on beautiful maps to aid long distance navigation via dead reckoning, which shows an appreciation of the pilot's skill. Yet on multi player servers the teamspeak channels are empty, suggesting that we are not flying in together as was historically done, but engaging in one on one brawls where coordination and communication are devalued.

 

We have a long way to go to build the community spirit that keeps even CloD alive and kicking despite it's release faults. We will not get there by being reactive and immature when faced with things we do not like, but by fostering immersion and sportsmanship within the community. Like it or not (and I do not agree with all the developer decisions) the existing system has merits for introducing people to the game - partly in leveling the playing field, encouraging learning, giving players easy to understand signposts for reputation and achievement and so on. We have a lot to do as a community to make this work, and the developers have their own work to do too. It's not the end of the world. The sky isn't falling. Etc.

 

 

Wake up !!!

 

people have been doing this not to avoid the difficulty, but not to waste time !!! playing and winning SP mission, is absolutely NO challenge for anyone a bit experienced in MP... None. nada. nothing. Ive been playing flight sim at a competitive level for more than a decade.. At this point the AI doesnt bring anything challengeful to the game... some AI bombers in coop mod ? sure why not... but other than that..

 

People enjoy flying SP ? fine. people enjoying having their unlock in SP ? fine. Nobody ever complained about that.

 

 

 

What sense does it make to force someone to play the SP campaign for 7 or 8 freaking hours so he can get the MGFF on his FW-190 in MP ??? it makes no freaking sense-

 

the only unlock i did for the 109 was the removed headrest, because I like the visibility......

 

what sense does it make to force someone to play 2 hours of meaningless campaign to get that in MP ? none.

 

 

I dropped almost 100$ on this way before it was playable, because I trusted the dev.... I just wish the dev would trust us in return.

 

 

as for the second part, I do all what you say in realistic MP servers. long navs (without the radar and GPS) and most serious squad have their own TS... because it makes no sense to be more than 5-6 on a freq anyway...

 

 

we people were flying VEF and such online campaigns more than a decade ago.... I dont think you even realize at what level of coordination and teamplay we are used to..

Edited October 6, 2014 by SYN_Haashashin

[kaboki]

It is a cunning plan to improve flying standards online...they just realised 75% the people are using autopilot and 16 X speed compression because they cant complete the missions without it ....

 

No it's not, it's forcing us to play something we MP guys never ever have been intrested in, that's why most people used 16x, me I didn't, I played the 5 first missions and then got bored and refused to play spend another minute in it!! Now with todays news BoS is wiped out of my hardrive and Im now looking into CLOD again.

Edited October 6, 2014 by SYN_Haashashin
Offensive

[HBB*Hunger]

PLS Stop calling it "Campaign" please. Call it whatever but not campaign..

[FZG_Merlin]

Cliffs of dover.

 

 

no more flickering ? nice. I might be up for a reinstall

[Vaxxtx]

no more flickering ? nice. I might be up for a reinstall

Get the TF patches, and its freekin gorgeous.

[oneeyeddog]

I'm hoping that the adage "It's always darkest before the dawn" holds true (as it did in the FW190 bar issue). I love this sim, but it really is looking pretty dark right now. Hopefully something can be worked out in the coming days.

 

Salut!

I really hope you 're right Jim, but its almost always pretty dark before they put you in a sack and beat you with sticks.

[HBB*Hunger]

Wake the f up !!!

 

people have been doing this not to avoid the difficulty, but not to waste time !!! playing and winning SP mission, is absolutely NO challenge for anyone a bit experienced in MP... None. nada. nothing. Ive been playing flight sim at a competitive level for more than a decade.. At this point the AI doesnt bring anything challengeful to the game... some AI bombers in coop mod ? sure why not... but other than that..

 

People enjoy flying SP ? fine. people enjoying having their unlock in SP ? fine. Nobody ever complained about that.

 

 

 

What sense does it make to force someone to play the SP campaign for 7 or 8 freaking hours so he can get the MGFF on his FW-190 in MP ??? it makes no freaking sense-

 

the only unlock i did for the 109 was the removed headrest, because I like the visibility......

 

what sense does it make to force someone to play 2 hours of meaningless campaign to get that in MP ? none.

 

 

I dropped almost 100$ on this way before it was playable, because I trusted the dev.... I just wish the dev would trust us in return.

 

+100

 

'Cause thats IT, meaningless, non-immersive, XP-Call of Duty nonsense "here get a nice Cutscene" - piece of Battlefield 3 quick mission time waste...

Edited October 6, 2014 by J99*Hunger

[wellenbrecher]

Geezus.

And here we were joking last night about today it's all going to be alright and we'll feel silly for being so upset with the first version. Good times, full of innocence and hope.

 

This is what it all boils down to:

 

 

FFS, how is it so hard to understand that people by nature dislike a lack of choice?

 

Edited October 6, 2014 by [JG2]G3_wellenbrecher

[PFR_Bearkiller72]

Could some Mod pls black out the MP vs. SP debate, no place for this in this thread.

 

Folks, please hold your horses right now. We're at 90%, not the final.

Again: yes, we also are testers, though not called as such.

Any feedback generated here goes back to the devs.

 

AND: this is the first crowdfunding revenue in flight-sim history, AFAIK. This is new, let's keep it friendly from both sides.

 

If it doesn't meet our demands at 105%, we can still flame it to death thru various other sources, such as customer reviews.

Edited October 6, 2014 by SK_Bearkiller72

[Static]

Apple contacted me about my e-mail account being over the limit by this thread, lol! Unsubscribe does not work???

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

The change log for today's update is as follows:

- it's now possible to speed up time for x2 only;

- aim helper added in Normal difficulty (RCTRL+i to disable it);
 

 

Great thanks for fixing issues.

 

However 2 changes are just not necessary and make things for me at least less enjoyable. The aim helper in Normal difficulty is making mode with icons which in general is easy ... easier. I know I can disable it but still, even thinking of any aim help brings some strange comparisons with more arcadish games ...

 

- Even old Il2 1946 in any case had at least x8 if not x16 if I recall. Its not nice for me flying 40-60 km after mission (completed task) to land at x2, it is just boring since chances of meeting enemy are not high and you already might be low on ammo. As said, I'd like to see x16 back. Flying to target as climbing and thinking on tactics at x2 is perfectly ok, but any other movements ... I really appreciated x16.

 

 

Personally I'd like to see some attention given to Ai, which seems to be ace of headons due to great accuracy. And also since I'm flying Fw-190 mostly I spotted that Ai of my wingmen is not skilled enough to fly time, they very often fall into spin and cant recover. In last 10 missions my wingmen provided 0 help, while some crashed before even reaching target, other two were shot down by Yak-1s trying to turnfight them. As much as I like being hero and killing 2+ enemies, I think wingmen are there for some reason. 

[Static]

AND: this is the first crowdfunding revenue in flight-sim history, AFAIK. This is new, let's keep it friendly from both sides.

 

?????? They have backers & shareholders. This was not a so called kick starter or crowd funded project. It was pre- order with the ability to alpha/  beta test though, if that is what you mean by crowd funding?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Static

[PFR_Bearkiller72]

Apple contacted me about my e-mail account being over the limit by this thread, lol! Unsubscribe does not work???

Not with Apple, not with BoS. You're in it, now bear with it...

[Aracno]

 

Any feedback generated here goes back to the devs.

 

 

 

And we saw how it work ....

[PFR_Bearkiller72]

 

AND: this is the first crowdfunding revenue in flight-sim history, AFAIK. This is new, let's keep it friendly from both sides.

 

?????? They have backers & shareholders. This was not a so called kick starter or crowd funded project. It was pre- order with the ability to alpha/  beta test though, if that is what you mean by crowd funding?

 

 

 

Sort of. My fault in using false diction. We backed the whole project by buying the pre-alpha access, thus making us a sort of "kickstarter", but not in the generally used term of it.

And we saw how it work ....

Wait for it... After this wave of atrocity they have to calm it down. If they don't... hmmm...

Edited October 6, 2014 by SK_Bearkiller72

[Dakpilot]

Sort of. My fault in using false diction. We backed the whole project by buying the pre-alpha access, thus making us a sort of "kickstarter", but not in the generally used term of it.

Wait for it... After this wave of atrocity they have to calm it down. If they don't...

 

If you seriously think that the early access buyers backed the whole project?... perhaps that is not what you meant

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[PFR_Bearkiller72]

If you seriously think that the early access buyers backed the whole project?... perhaps that is not what you meant

 

Cheers Dakpilot

We defo backed the project with our money, that's what I meant.

(And as such, this makes us some sort of "shareholders", if you get my meaning.)

Edited October 6, 2014 by SK_Bearkiller72

[Jason_Williams]

Sorry, but this was not a crowd-funded project. All funds were provided by 1C-777 whether we launched an Early Access or not. In other words, the project would have been build regardless. We've stated this many times before. We launched an Early Access to shorten the window from announcement to flying after past issues with previous products lengthy development cycle.

 

Jason

[Livai]

Sort of. My fault in using false diction. We backed the whole project by buying the pre-alpha access, thus making us a sort of "kickstarter", but not in the generally used term of it.

Wait for it... After this wave of atrocity they have to calm it down. If they don't... hmmm...

 

in other words its our fault that we trusted them and gave our money without seeing the end product.  The same happend with Clod, now we have it again.

[Dakpilot]

in other words its our fault that we trusted them and gave our money without seeing the end product.  The same happend with Clod, now we have it again.

 

LOL cannot even be compared

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[AuroraJutilainen]

-long story about not being able to read-

take a moment to read my post VERY thoroughly.

People. Do. Not. Have. Time. To. Play. A. Mode. They. Do. Not. Like. - To. Unlock. Features. For. A. Game. They. Have. Already. Paid. For.

No one should be forced to play the 'campaign' or be forced into any mode for that matter to get the full enjoyment and experience for whatever mode they play. Believe it or not, there are people out there who do not want to fight with or against AI, why should they be punished for not taking part in singleplayer? that is what the complaints are about, not this bulls##t you are spitting.

 

read and then reread this about 5 times

 

[wellenbrecher]

take a moment to read my post VERY thoroughly.

People. Do. Not. Have. Time. To. Play. A. Mode. They. Do. Not. Like. - To. Unlock. Features. For. A. Game. They. Have. Already. Paid. For.

No one should be forced to play the 'campaign' or be forced into any mode for that matter to get the full enjoyment and experience for whatever mode they play. Believe it or not, there are people out there who do not want to fight with or against AI, why should they be punished for not taking part in singleplayer? that is what the complaints are about, not this bulls##t you are spitting.

 

read and then reread this about 5 times

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

LOL cannot even be compared

 

LOL, it can.

[FuriousMeow]

LOL, it can.

 

LOL, it can't. The SP unlock system is BS and silly, but the game is complete and runs without any of the inherent issues in CloD still present to this day even with TF's hacking of the code.

 

I don't like the SP unlock crap, but comparing this to CloD? That takes a screwdriver to the cerebellum kind of special to establish any kind of similarities.

Edited October 6, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[PFR_Bearkiller72]

in other words its our fault that we trusted them and gave our money without seeing the end product.  The same happend with Clod, now we have it again.

 

Sorry, but this was not a crowd-funded project. All funds were provided by 1C-777 whether we launched an Early Access or not. In other words, the project would have been build regardless. We've stated this many times before. We launched an Early Access to shorten the window from announcement to flying after past issues with previous products lengthy development cycle.

 

Jason

Thanks for the official reply. But understand this reaction; our bucks have been used to keep the credit institutes at bay, so questions in this general direction must be asked.

Again, you asked for feedback, here it is, bear with it.

No offence meant.

[Jaws2002]

LOL cannot even be compared

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Agree. One failed because the developer tried to make it as awesome as possible and the other one will die because the developers try to make it as annoying and retarded as possible.

[HBB*Hunger]

Thanks for the official reply. But understand this reaction; our bucks have been used to keep the credit institutes at bay, so questions in this general direction must be asked.

Again, you asked for feedback, here it is, bear with it.

No offence meant.

 

 

Exactly

[JimTM]

I really hope you 're right Jim, but its almost always pretty dark before they put you in a sack and beat you with sticks.

Lol. Sorry, sticks are locked!

[Madigan]

The sad thing is, nobody likes the unlock system, yet the developers has spent so much time in making it, that they can't accept the fact that just about everyone dislike it, so they even go through very dumb decisions to make people play it the way the developers want them to. I would have enjoyed the campaign in its own right, if I wasn't forced to play it to get modifications. But now that I can't even skip the travel time I would never consider playing the campaign, it's such a basic feature and it's what makes single player nice, to be able to skip the down time and get right into the action.

Totally agree mate..

[sturmkraehe]

I feel again like being treated as a 5 year old child that cannot take the responsibility for its own decision (like for instance accelerating beyond 2x)...   (same again after being paternalized wrt graphic and difficult settings).

 

This is imho more annoying than the whole unlock thing that I don't appreciate despite not taking it for a huge drama either.

Edited October 6, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[kaboki]

I just pray to god that Oleg succed with he's DCS WW2 ambition

[Vaxxtx]

No it did have an unlock..it just took TF 3 years to find it to make it work

 

Cheers Dakpilot

So the 1c team fumbled the ball, (is some of that team working on BoS?), and talented people from the community made it awesome.

 

Thats a great story.

[dburne]

I just pray to god that Oleg succed with he's DCS WW2 ambition

 

Fyi, Oleg is not part of that, it is all on DCS at this point.

[39bn_pavig]

Do you actually read our complaints or do you just decide ahead of time that we are being elitists?

 

Yes I do read the complaints and I understand that MP folk are feeling that the ground has moved under them due to changed loadouts and the new system. I have also developed games and watched a lot of player behavior and the knock on effects various constraints have on the way people play. Plus I'm in an Arma3 realism clan, so we constantly battle between the almost infinite availability of mods and loadouts and managing realistic distribution of the tools at hand to ensure missions remain balanced with the constraints the scripters have built in top ensure they play out with an appropriate difficulty. 

 

The problem with entirely sandbox based games is that they become volatile to unbalancing very quickly. Player behavior changes as well, when there is an abundance of clearly superior equipment on hand. This is just plain human nature, and you see it in the way players unconsciously unbalance servers by choosing all the most superior fighters if they are available in unlimited supply. 

 

Games are built on constraints and if those constraints are reasonable then without too much curation by moderators well balanced gameplay emerges. If this was just a flight sim then we could rely on the players to moderate themselves, but a true flight sim would be boring to all but those going for their pilots license. It is by necessity also a game, and due to multiplayer also a community building tool. 

 

We may not agree with all the constraints the developers have put in place to keep things in order, but there is a logic behind them. We will only see the outcome of those decisions down the line as new players come in and are integrated into the community and start flying with us. 

 

At this point it has only been two days since the major element of the gaming engine has been introduced, and it is sure to be iterated and refined. I understand that many of the MP folk are upset that the topology of the game has changed for them, but it is still early days. It is quite likely that co-op will be developed and integrated into the engine which would bring tears of joy to some of these very passionate folk - a game mode which has been sorely lacking in any approachable sense from other combat flight sims with the exception of some well designed but sub-optimal hacks. We will have to see.

 

But I find the immediate reaction of many of the community to the current version of the sim to be overblown - not passionate but hysterical. Time will change both the game and our perception of it, and I still have hope that both will continue to improve. 

 

I have friends who I have introduced to War Thunder, just because I thought they'd like it. Personally I hate it. But when they showed a passion for flight I suggested RoF and they went out and bought a stick are now addicted. They're waiting for BoS to be released, and are maturing as flight simmers, developing stronger skills, and approaching sims with an eye to teamwork and a great sporting attitude. These are folk who have always had an interest but were intimidated by the sheer humourlessness and obscurity of existing sims. We will be flying with these people soon, and they are good folk. Despite complaints we may have, BoS is being written in a gaming language they can understand, so with the wrapping intelligible the simulation can shine through without much of the sim baggage we have come to expect of the genre.

 

So yes, I do listen to the arguments of the MP community, but I find some of it overly dramatic. This isn't DCS where there is nothing but the sandbox and a big question mark as to how to proceed, you pay a fifty for a plane and then scratch your head. It is BoS where you pay your fifty for two fleets of planes, a gaming framework designed to hone your piloting skills, and a system which provides you with clear objectives for what to do and where to go until you can take the training wheels off. BoS is a simulation gateway drug designed to convert gamers into pilots and grow with them. We will have to see how successful it is as it is developed and refined, and as the community grows into it.

[kaboki]

Fyi, Oleg is not part of that, it is all on DCS at this point.

 

Oh, have I missed something? a few months ago I was watching a video on he's crowdfunding page where he talked about it...

 

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/?ref=kicktraq

 

"Legendary flight simulation designers Oleg Maddox, Ilya Shevchenko, and Igor Tishin, are excited to bring you a new WWII flight simulation for the PC. Built by industry veterans with the same approach that made the famous flight sims of the past great, and in partnership with the experts at the Fighter Collection and Eagle Dynamics, the simulation aims to satisfy seasoned aces as well as attract new pilots to the genre."

 

What have changed? Please give me a direction, source...

Edited October 6, 2014 by kaboki

[wellenbrecher]

Oh, have I missed something? a few months ago I was watching a video on he's crowdfunding page where he talked about it...

He made such a giant mess of it in terms of finances and progress that DE stepped in and took it away from him.

[II/JG17KaC_Wolfe]

I don't know if anyone agrees but the aiming aid (little red bouncing circle) really detracts.  It turns it into an arcade game.  Please guys - can you remove it or at least allow it an as option for players who want it?   I'm  still learning on deflection shooting but I don't want to hit anything with this aid...I'd rather miss.

[dburne]

I don't know if anyone agrees but the aiming aid (little red bouncing circle) really detracts.  It turns it into an arcade game.  Please guys - can you remove it or at least allow it an as option for players who want it?   I'm  still learning on deflection shooting but I don't want to hit anything with this aid...I'd rather miss.

 

You should be able to disable it with R-CTRL i ( according to Zak, I have not tried it yet).

 

The downside would be having to do that with each mission start, much like disabling the engine aides in Normal mode.

Edited October 6, 2014 by dburnette