Developer Diary, Part 81

[dburne]

Your also getting just this community which is going to be much less critical due to moderation. Expand your online footprint and you see much more harsh thoughts on the game and campaign.

 

Indeed.

[Freycinet]

The hate against BoS expressed in these days is an exact carbon-copy of the hate against RoF in its early days, when it had only four flyables and ran like crap. Seems it is always the same. Almost makes me ashamed to be a flight simmer.

[Rama]

 this community which is going to be much less critical due to moderation.

No this community isn't less critical due to moderation.

It is as critical, but is doing it while staying civil... which is much more meaningfull than an insult fest.

 

But the subject of this thread isn't moderation but Developper diaries #81. So please stay on topic.

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

Which means what? That the silent majority, because they are silent, like or dislike this design decision?

 

Well no, if you actually read what I said it means the silent majority are always silent, their silence indicates nothing, the vocal part is always from the same people.

[dburne]

I seriously am not seeing any hate in this thread, just passionate flight simmers that have some concerns. On both sides of the fence.

[Rjel]

Your also getting just this community which is going to be much less critical due to moderation. Expand your online footprint and you see much more harsh thoughts on the game and campaign.

Please. I don't need to spread my views to the four corners of the flight sim world. Been there and done that. Your tenure here hasn't been long either. I'll base my opinions on my experiences. Not opinions like yours.

[wellenbrecher]

What is so mindblowingly unheard of about "having to do something"? 

No, you do not understand or do not want to understand.

The game is forcing me, against my will and for no gameplay relevant reason whatsoever, to do something I and apparently many others have no interest in doing and have get no enjoyment out of doing. It's irrelevant that it's not new, that it only takes so and so long or that there's wars in the world, it's bad design. Horrible, bad design.

Forcing players to do something in a way that was obvious would result in annoyance and unwillingness is never a good idea. Bad design.

 

 

Many companies have found this out the painful way in the past. If even some random university dead-end lazy slacker like me knows and recognises that pattern, then a bloody paid professional should as well.

[Rama]

The hate against BoS expressed in these days is an exact carbon-copy of the hate against RoF in its early days, when it had only four flyables and ran like crap. Seems it is always the same. Almost makes me ashamed to be a flight simmer.

The few posts with excessive rudeness have been removed, I don't see any hate in the actual discussion.

There's no need to be excessive in calling critic "hate". it's also useless.

[Trooper117]

As stated in my earlier posts... It took me an hour to unlock a pretty fair stack of stuff and get to the next stage of the campaign.

It certainly isn't difficult, and it was done just to show that you could easily progress.

But I don't like the way some of the MP crowd are labelling the SP guys as people who are happy to 'grind' our way through this 'Campaign' and enjoy getting unlocks!

Firstly, I hate having to do it, but as an adult I understand that 'I have what I have' at this stage of the development so I'm just cracking on with it.

Secondly, I'm sure there will be some adjustments to the game before release, (we are still playing an unfinished product at the moment) so I'm not overly worried that what we are seeing is final

As an old time IL2 player and sim junkie, I have to say, back in the day I lived for the old IL2, loved the community, and bought everything that Oleg and crew put out, and week after week I was online and played many of the large 'online wars' (those were the days, lol!)

I have longed and waited for that scene to reappear, and I had hoped that BoS was the beginning of that new era. But I have to say I'm now not so sure that is something that will happen... I do hope I'm wrong

I only have one other option if this goes for a ball of chalk... if you catch my drift.

[Rama]

To all.... the debate has a tendancy ot heat in the last exchanges.

Please calm down. There's no need for an immediate reply each time you see a post which you don't like.

Take some time before replying, it's better for everybody.

[dburne]

 

As an old time IL2 player and sim junkie, I have to say, back in the day I lived for the old IL2, loved the community, and bought everything that Oleg and crew put out, and week after week I was online and played many of the large 'online wars' (those were the days, lol!)

I have longed and waited for that scene to reappear, and I had hoped that BoS was the beginning of that new era. But I have to say I'm now not so sure that is something that will happen... I do hope I'm wrong

 

 

I hope you are wrong as well, I too am a single player only guy and I am just not feeling it with how the campaign appears to be coming out - don't care for unlocks, certainly don't care for XP grinding. I am more about a story line, becoming a character in a WWII combat flight sim world.

 

At this stage, I am hanging on to hope that there will be some great user made missions and hopefully campaigns that will whet my appetite. If not, well then I will do something else.

[ducs]

With SE gone, chuck pulling guides, and all the rage on the forums, I fear for this game I have really come to enjoy. I really hope a drastic measure is taken to get everyone happy quickly.

[Rama]

Just hided a few post that were off-topic, criticizing other poster's and/or forum behavior.

 

Enough... next post in the same vein will grant a ticket to banville.

[falstaff]

I suppose the thing to do is wait until such time as a good SP campaign is developed, either in-house or 3rd party.

 

I guess it's a question of how far you're prepared to re-adjust your expectations. And how often you expect to have to do this as we draw closer to release. 

 

(A lack of wit and perspective, maybe, but I haven't seen much hate, just disappointment. God knows I'm disappointed in what I've read of the SP here and at SimHQ).

 

....but at least we have *something* to be disappointed in....which is better than nothing...

 

...yours truly...a half-full cup with wings....

[GOZR]

The Developers heard you, Give them the chance, they tested .. It is yet a Beta before all.. They saw and listen.. now give them the chance to better it.. It's just the weekend atm

 

BoS still has the best potential for this era and genre. It just need to be adjusted for two world.. ONLINE and OFFLINE. SO it is quite simple.

 

For my part I still hope to be able to have the SDK and built something for it. There is always frustration at first and afraid to have something you do not like but teh communication with the Devs is still open.

[DD_bongodriver]

it's always a weekend when a bombshell drops, the big news always comes on a Friday.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

For me the worst part of all this so far is that the eagles nest-server is gone Really hope it comes back in one form or another. I have been really busy for a month or so, and didn't have time to fly there but once or twice, I think. Now when I do have more time again, the only attractive server in North America is no more.

Anyways I really hope that some of these decisions get re-thought and some changes will be made. As some people have pointed out before, fact that majority is silent does not equal majority being happy. And I for one don't want to see majority voting with their wallets/feet (unless ofc it's vote for BoS.)

[FlatSpinMan]

Well it's still the weekend for a bit longer in Russia, but pretty soon they'll be back in the office again. Maybe after that we'll start to here more from their side.

 

In the meantime, as Rama said, stay calm when posting. Insulting or provoking other users isn't going to help get the game changed to the way you want it to be.

[Urra]

For me the worst part of all this so far is that the eagles nest-server is gone Really hope it comes back in one form or another. I have been really busy for a month or so, and didn't have time to fly there but once or twice, I think. Now when I do have more time again, the only attractive server in North America is no more.

Yep.1+

[J2_Trupobaw]

Indeed, but therein lies the problem with this idea: how do you make people who don't want to play flight sims play flight sim, so  that you can reward them for playing flight sims?

 

Do you really think rewards will change their opinion of a genre they dislike?

 

I mean to compare would you play Barbie Horse Adventure if I rewarded you with unlocks and XP if you did so?

I'm thinking of people that *would like* to play flightsims, but think learning them is to much hard work and to little fun. I was one, many of my IRL friends are like that - they respect my hobby because they think it's something difficult, learned hard way, a fun beyond their reach. at least today, some of them are "going to play realistic sims one day, when they have more time" . Whjen proposed to fly a sim they go for arcade mode Wings of Prey, joystick only, pedals and TrackIR are complicating things to much!

 

The unlocks are an attempt to bring fun element to the foreground - easy, accessible fun factor for everybody, and sense of accomplishment before you get any piloting skills. Nothing difficult little Trupy, just take the stick and try flying that plane towards a waypoint. Wow little Truppy, you have flown your plane from point A to point B without stalling or spinning, here is your unlock, you are making *progress*! Little Truppy may not be making any real progress yet, but he is on right track. He will want more, to get next unlock he will be running ground attack missions until he learns to hit immobile target without hitting the ground, or fly escort missions without crashing into own bombers. He may even try interceptions and learn to climb. By the time he "completes" the game and unlocks everything there is to unlock, he should be ready to dogfight AIs or understand Requiems tutorials.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Trupobaw

[Yakmaster]

I'm thinking of people that *would like* to play flightsims, but think learning them is to much hard work and to little fun. I was one, many of my IRL friends are like that - they respect my hobby because they think it's something difficult, learned hard way, a fun beyond their reach. at least today, some of them are "going to play realistic sims one day, when they have more time" . Whjen proposed to fly a sim they go for arcade mode Wings of Prey, joystick only, pedals and TrackIR are complicating things to much!

 

The unlocks are an attempt to bring fun element to the foreground - easy, accessible fun factor for everybody, and sense of accomplishment before you get any piloting skills. Nothing difficult little Trupy, just take the stick and try flying that plane towards a waypoint. Wow little Truppy, you have flown your plane from point A to point B without stalling or spinning, here is your unlock, you are making *progress*! Little Truppy may not be making any real progress yet, but he is on right track. He will want more, to get next unlock he will be running ground attack missions until he learns to hit immobile target without hitting the ground, or fly escort missions without crashing into own bombers. He may even try interceptions and learn to climb. By the time he "completes" the game and unlocks everything there is to unlock, he should be ready to dogfight AIs or understand Requiems tutorials.

 

im guessing that kined of player will tell ou why pay 90$ when i have same thing for free in WT, to him FM DM and all that what makes differance betwen 90$ and free fun dont seam any differant...

[indiaciki]

I'm thinking of people that *would like* to play flightsims, but think learning them is to much hard work and to little fun. I was one, many of my IRL friends are like that - they respect my hobby because they think it's something difficult, learned hard way, a fun beyond their reach. at least today, some of them are "going to play realistic sims one day, when they have more time" .

 

The unlocks are an attempt to bring fun element to the foreground - easy, accessible fun factor for everybody, and sense of accomplishment before you get any piloting skills. Nothing difficult little Trupy, just take the stick and try flying that plane towards a waypoint. Wow little Truppy, you have flown your plane from point A to point B without stalling or spinning, here is your unlock, you are making *progress*! Little Truppy may not be making any real progress yet, but he is on right track. He will want more, to get next unlock he will be running ground attack missions until he learns to hit immobile target without hitting the ground, or fly escort missions without crashing into own bombers. He may even try interceptions and learn to climb. By the time he "completes" the game and unlocks everything there is to unlock, he should be ready to dogfight AIs or understand Requiems tutorials.

 

The very problem is that people who do not love airplanes do not fly sims. You can't make them do it if you were Jesus christ. They just don't care. And the younger people think that aerial combat is shooting high tech missles at 50G maneuvers at targets in 5 min missions. tie fighter vs x-wing. They don't give a ... about piston aircraft. 20 year olds don't relate to that. ww2 aircraft to them is like gothic cathedrals.

 

...unless you make them WASD flyable with slow motion headshot unlocks

Edited October 5, 2014 by indiaciki

[Afwastus]

im guessing that kined of player will tell ou why pay 90$ when i have same thing for free in WT, to him FM DM and all that what makes differance betwen 90$ and free fun dont seam any differant...

 

Pretty much, the type of audience that will go "OMG, unlocks" are more than happy to play War Thunder, which is free.

 

 

The unlocks are an attempt to bring fun element to the foreground - easy, accessible fun factor for everybody, and sense of accomplishment before you get any piloting skills. Nothing difficult little Trupy, just take the stick and try flying that plane towards a waypoint. Wow little Truppy, you have flown your plane from point A to point B without stalling or spinning, here is your unlock, you are making *progress*! Little Truppy may not be making any real progress yet, but he is on right track. He will want more, to get next unlock he will be running ground attack missions until he learns to hit immobile target without hitting the ground, or fly escort missions without crashing into own bombers. He may even try interceptions and learn to climb. By the time he "completes" the game and unlocks everything there is to unlock, he should be ready to dogfight AIs or understand Requiems tutorials.

 

That's a great idea in theory, except when you make everyone, regardless of experience or interests (i.e. the people who want to play multiplayer have to play the single player campaign.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[aletto]

Pretty much, the type of audience that will go "OMG, unlocks" are more than happy to play War Thunder, which is free.

 

Trust me, even the WT crowd isn't happy about the upgrades. It gets really, really excessive the more you play.

[indiaciki]

I bought RoF 5 years after release because of comments and reviews. And I bought a lot of planes since and it's great. I guess BOS will need another 5 years, which is really sad. 

[J2_Trupobaw]

im guessing that kined of player will tell ou why pay 90$ when i have same thing for free in WT, to him FM DM and all that what makes differance betwen 90$ and free fun dont seam any differant...

 

 

 

The very problem is that people who do not love airplanes do not fly sims. You can't make them do it if you were Jesus christ. They just don't care. And the younger people think that aerial combat is shooting high tech missles at 50G maneuvers at targets in 5 min missions. tie fighter vs x-wing. They don't give a ... about piston aircraft. 20 year olds don't relate to that. ww2 aircraft to them is like gothic cathedrals.

 

...unless you make them WASD flyable with slow motion headshot unlocks

 

 

*cough* I wasn't exactly talking about FPS/MMORPG crowd converting to flight sims because BoS has unlocks, but undecided people already attracted to planes who think flight sims are to difficult for them, or require to much time investment before they start seeing results. "I wish I had time to learn this awesome thing / I want realism, but if I have to learn by being thrown into deep water, I'll pass for now " crowd.  They may give WT a try first, or see it for shooter it is. I thought I already  wrote that

 

 

I'm thinking of people that *would like* to play flightsims, but think learning them is to much hard work and to little fun. I was one, many of my IRL friends are like that - they respect my hobby because they think it's something difficult, learned hard way, a fun beyond their reach. at least today, some of them are "going to play realistic sims one day, when they have more time" . Whjen proposed to fly a sim they go for arcade mode Wings of Prey, joystick only, pedals and TrackIR are complicating things to much!

 

 

 

 

That's a great idea in theory, except when you make everyone, regardless of experience or interests (i.e. the people who want to play multiplayer have to play the single player campaign.

No argument here, I never said I'm comfortable with the execution or that it makes my BoS experience better. I'm trying to understand the idea behind devs team decisions before saying unlocks have no merit (now buried overjustification effect part, which I agree will apply to many veteran simmers). 

 

('m getting tired and sleepy so expect more and more ramblings from this point on)

 

I believe in trying to understand what other guy is thinking before telling him why he's wrong - what exactly he tries to accomplish and how he arrived to his conclusions. It either helps me show him where exactly he's wrong, in his own terms so he'll listen and understand, or to see why he has a point where I wish he hadn't. Or why he won't listen  . Any way, it helps avoid "You are wrong!" - "No, you are wrong!" kind of arguments. In this case, I think I see what devs were trying to accomplish and what kind of people they hope to attract / placate with unlocks. I guess they also assumed the veteran flyers will gloss over the unlocks, getting them quickly and forgetting they ever had to grind for them. This would be a reasonable reaction, vets have skills to brush unlocks away quickly. If so I think they made the wrong assumption and underestimated effect of elitism (for lack of better word) - multiplayer only players will refuse to play SP campaign even through they can be done with it quickly, because it's to simple / boring / it's not where they get their kick from. Since the game is still being tested, I hope devs will see that in making the game attractive to aspiring simmers they spoiled it more than they needed for rest of their base and will adjust unlocks - by not locking MP content or making experience points earnable in MP. 

 

Making experience earnable in MP would give us nice workaround for tutorial bug - but I digress.

 

I'm afraid at least some devs believe that whatever they do, large portion of veterans will hate it anyway (which is probably true, but still shouldn't be acted on ). I'm pretty sure they are more stressed and overworked than they admit, which makes imperfect design decisions unavoidable. This makes everybody on forums nervous - players often see stress as signs of bad will and respond in kind, so often that some members of the team see attacks in what was posted as criticism, or criticism in questions that merely touch sensitive subjects. We need more good will - or visible signs of good will - here.

 

Since I'm rambling anyway, i think elitism I mentioned may yet end this hobby. In most computer games "noobs" are bottom of pecking order, seen as something less than proper players by veterans. Flight simmers I see are very protective of new pilots, going out of their way to help them learn the ropes - but a sim friendly to the noobs is seen as something less than the sim, even if differences are cosmetic. The sim itself should be as realistic, difficult and unwelcoming to new aspirants as possible. 

 

Once you get unlocks out of the way and log into Expert settings, mission-oriented server, you will be flying a pure blooded sim. This is the part that should count.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Trupobaw

[FlatSpinMan]

Really well written post, Trupobaw. It sums up my impression of the rationale behind this system.

 

There've been many visceral, knee-jerk responses on both sides over this past weekend that the defensive shields have slammed down and many have set their tolerance-meters to "fly off the handle immediately".

 

I really appreciate those who have taken the time to post calmly and thoughtfully - again, on both sides.

 

The game is still not finished yet. The Devs have repeatedly shown they will listen to and act on input from alpha and beta players. That said, there's no guarantee that things will change. They are building the game they can with the resources they have.

 

Let's see what the week has in store.

 

And if we can all pause briefly before hitting "Post", it' may help calm things down.

[Afwastus]

If so I think they made the wrong assumption and underestimated effect of elitism (for lack of better word) - multiplayer only players will refuse to play SP campaign even through they can be done with it quickly, because it's to simple / boring / it's not where they get their kick from.

 

The thing is though this it isn't about elitism.

 

1) Most of us don't see single or multiplayer as inherently better (we do have personal preferences however)

2) Most of us don't see ourselves as "veteran" players as any better than new players or those who don't play flight sims at all

3) Most of us don't care if other people play the game using easier settings or if someone doesn't want to focus on realism

 

What bothers most of us is when we aren't given a choice about how we have to play game.

 

Take me for instance, I don't look down on people who prefer to play offline nor do I think I am any better than any other player by virtue of being a flight sim enthusiast. What does annoy me however is when I am forced to play offline in order to unlock stuff I can use in multiplayer. Not because I think multiplayer is superior or better but simply because it is what I enjoy. Similarly, I'm not concerned with how other people choose to play the game in regards to difficulty, play normal and enjoy it, I'm not here to judge anyone. However, don't make me play the game according to your standards.

 

To summarize, I'm not saying that any way of playing the game is better than another, but rather I suggest that everyone be allowed to play the game in the manner that they prefer. Let offline pilots play offline with all the features of the game and let online players play online with all the features of the game. Let pilots fly normal mode and let pilots fly expert mode (ideally let pilots fly custom mode). Don't force any group of players to play in a way they don't want to.

 

I enjoyed your post Trupobaw and it's nice to see that we can have a discussion, while keeping it civil. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Afwastus

[unreasonable]

Allowing MP play to include xp gain and unlocks would actually allow the developers to deal with an issue which devalues MP (IMHO), namely the complete disregard for their own lives with which many players fly.

 

This could be addressed by a game mechanic whereby any fighter pilot who is killed, captured or exits the game in a damaged aircraft gets their xp and unlocks for that specific fighter type reset to zero.

 

I would exempt bombers - getting yourself killed in a fighter in MP is almost always the player's own fault, while the bomber boys have to plough on and trust to luck.

[LastRightsXIII]

Question; (I don't know much about this server stuff.)

Will the xp unlock system be implemented in non ranking servers?

[indiaciki]

ever asked a teen about the appeal of piston engine dogfighting? 

 

why did cod switch from ww2 FPS to modern warfare? Any idea?

[BraveSirRobin]

Allowing MP play to include xp gain and unlocks would actually allow the developers to deal with an issue which devalues MP (IMHO), namely the complete disregard for their own lives with which many players fly.

 

This could be addressed by a game mechanic whereby any fighter pilot who is killed, captured or exits the game in a damaged aircraft gets their xp and unlocks for that specific fighter type reset to zero.

 

I would exempt bombers - getting yourself killed in a fighter in MP is almost always the player's own fault, while the bomber boys have to plough on and trust to luck.

 

Same rules for everyone.  If you lose unlock points getting killed in a fighter, bomber, SP, or MP, then you lose them in all. 

 

Of course, it's probably moot because they've said they're not even considering changing the current design.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I can live with the unlocks and all that, not too hard to get and propably being tweaked before release. What I criticize most is the lack of any attachment to the campaign. There is no immersion whatsoever, just a string of missions in a chosen plane adding to your XP and unlock. No attachment to a squadron or other features that would add a feeling of you being a part of one of the biggest struggles in WW2. EAW had it nicely done, for example.

[unreasonable]

Same rules for everyone.  If you lose unlock points getting killed in a fighter, bomber, SP, or MP, then you lose them in all. 

 

Of course, it's probably moot because they've said they're not even considering changing the current design.

Actually I would be quite OK with that, since there is no other way to play DiD in SP as it currently stands, as there is no "you" there to die, which is also in agreement with Flanker's point. All the best SP games tell a story or help you to imagine your own, with you as the hero.

 

 

 

FSM: EDITED TO DELETE OFFENSIVE REMARKS.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I don't like unlock. But this mess is developers fault, because they give them to me i early access and now they take it from me and forced me to earn them in more sophisticated QMB...

I know them (unlock) so there is no surprise or else. I could say that if i would buy this game in final stage i would not mind to earn them and use them in mp. BTW for me there are more important issues related to FM.

Edited October 6, 2014 by tomcatqw

[FlatSpinMan]

ever asked a teen about the appeal of piston engine dogfighting? 

 

I bet there'll be some that are into it, like I (and probably many of us here) were - borrowing Bill Gunston books full of photos, cutaways, and technical specs. Actually that's more like me between the ages of 8 and 13, but the interest stuck and came back when I was older.

[Mainstay]

I dont like unlocks. Even worse i got stuck after mission 1 because i cant unlock to proceed. Great succes long live unlocks !

[jaydee]

My 2 cents...After a five hour download on Sat I was not happy. I now had to Unlock things id gotten used to.

I think the "Unlock" System as is now will be come an obstacle for a lot of BOS players. Rather than an incentive for New BOS players who "may" be willing to Grind. Example, a new BOS player who wants to fly and bomb in the Heinkill. How is he going to practice ?

In the previous pages I have seen a lot of Singleplayer/Multiplayer opinions. In my view this Unlock System affects Both in different ways. No one has the right to say "Fix it for Me". We all want to enjoy BOS and any changes the Devs (may) consider have to be consistent across all of BOS.

In the previous pages are examples of how this Unlock system affects all BOS players.

I nearly walked away on Sat.

No point walking away and whingeing if I haven't tried it. I did my unlocks and flew a few missions in the campaign. I had great fun but,to me the Campaign world is sterile. But its early days so im not dismissing it.(Don't know what happens when it is finished).

I have seen BOS compared to games that sell in the millions. I have heard the word "Elitest" banded around.

Lets face it BOS isn't going to sell in the millions and "Elitest" could mean "weirdo".

How many of your friends,workmates and family members do you know that Spend money to sit in front of PC, pretending to "FLY"... And we want it "Full Real"...We are not Elite,just very unusual.

I think the Devs have done a great job so far.

As a Flight Sim I think, BOS has great potential and I will support it. IF Simming gives way to Gaming, I wont.

~S~

[Dakpilot]

I think the "Unlock" System as is now will be come an obstacle for a lot of BOS players. Rather than an incentive for New BOS players who "may" be willing to Grind. Example, a new BOS player who wants to fly and bomb in the Heinkill. How is he going to practice ?

 

 

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the unlocks...all the bombers have standard loadouts you can go online before any "unlocking" and use a JU87 with up to 1000kg bomb, Pe2 with 250kg bombs and rockets H111 has four different historical bomb loadouts etc. most of the unlocks such as "remove headrest" do not affect historical MP

 

The only need to do any unlocking to get into MP is to convert fighters to jabo's and that is very early in the procedure and not very time consuming..so to say unlocks stop people from practicing or being able to get into MP straight away is a bit of an overstatement

 

Sure I understand it is a pain for MP only people to do a bit of offline..but how many people NEED to unlock every single extra for every single A/C to enjoy or even to be able to participate in MP. not saying it is good but maybe a bit of overreaction has been encouraged due to misunderstanding

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SR-F_Winger]

I dont understand all the fuzz as well.

For now I just unlocked 80% of the F4 and the 180 rounds wingcannons for the FW. I dont need anything more for current MP missions. This took me like 2 hours to play free.

I will free all unlocks when the effort wont be reset anymore. No point doing earlier.

Devs would do much better if the progress woudnt be reset. There is little to no incentive to play the campaign right now. Everyone would "test" much more if the progress wouldnt be resased in a month.