Developer Diary, Part 81

[dburne]

Starting point is the ROF career mode and you can improve it through the time and than port it improved back to ROF.

 

That is what I was hoping for all along.

[kaboki]

(In my humbles, "Flight" was sunk by a) a ridiculous pay-to-do-anything-while-being-told-it-was-free-to-play nonsense, b) it being touted as a great step forward from FSX when it was just a steaming pile of odure, and c) FSX iteslf being a steaming pile of odure in the first place. None of that applies here, pretty obviously.)

 

Edit: self-censored!

 

I totally disagree that FSX is a steaming pile of odour..... In default condidtion it may not "look" that impressive, but with 3rdparty addons it is an amazing civil aviation sim. I'm still amazed what the engine is capable of in 2014 for it being a sim made in 2006. FSX is actually a great piece of software that still is going strong thanks to 3rd party devs. And that it's still more popular than X-plane wich still is in development says it all.

Offcoure FSX can be a pain in the ass to get set up, but when tuned, tweaked and pimped up, it is GREAT.

 

Flight could have been great too if they just had opened it up to 3rd party devs from the beginning, but instead they tried to drag in casual gamers(releasing cocpitless planes that could be flown with a mouse and XP based gameplay) and also decided to release all addon content themselfes(greed) and that's why it got rejected by the sim communety and also it didn't succed atracting casual gamers, so it failed. 

Edited October 5, 2014 by kaboki

[Zak]

Look at the success of Demon Souls, that game is really rewarding the player because he has to do something for progress. And it doesn't need some kind of easy achievments or it throws for you with unlocks.

Offtopic. Demon souls was pretty much the first butt kicking hardcore game for mostly casual console user base. Meanwhile IL2BOS is just another complicated flight sim, it has no radical sensation in it. It's a continuation of a 13 year old game, and it was never supposed to blow your mind and fit every expectation of the boards. And I tell you what - it's absolutely the best flight sim ever for the money that we had for development.

[II/JG17KaC_Wolfe]

I get it why the campaign unlocks things..not everyones cup of tea I know..but its not the end of the world either.  The games great.

[1./JG42Nephris]

The game design decision is the message from our studio, it speaks for itself.

Unlocks give you motivation, smth to keep flying for, something rewarding your success. How can it be bad when you're given a bonus every time you reach a certain amount of game experience?

 

Using the RoF campaign Gui/System, generated with live filled mission (+20 AI planes /+ 30 ground vehicles dynmically  doing this or that) would have done the trick. Advancing in ones carreer is more than enough motivation, earning a medal, advancing to a certain ranks etc.

Why not using the longtime developed system of RoF.

I guess a lot a people were expecting we would see a RoF Campaign system version 2.0

 

And I tell you what - it's absolutely the best flight sim ever for the money that we had for development.

 

No doubt, cant agree more. So pls dont crash it to the wall by some odd decisions.

I guess most of us are of the same opinion.

Edited October 5, 2014 by 1./JG42Nephris

[Dakpilot]

I too would enjoy a career Mode but they said very few people played it in RoF...and they, I am sure have the stats to back that up..the cost of producing did not warrant the popularity in reality

 

Maybe WWII crowd are diferent?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Leaf]

The game design decision is the message from our studio, it speaks for itself.

Unlocks give you motivation, smth to keep flying for, something rewarding your success. How can it be bad when you're given a bonus every time you reach a certain amount of game experience?

I wish we gave you no unlocks in the first place, but we had to test them and we let you do that.

 

You're right, and that works perfectly well in singleplayer. 

The issue is that it destroys the multiplayer community. Yesterday evening was a case in point. I wanted to fly with the 19te guys, the response was "Yeah, but give me an hour, I've got to unlock this and that first". You're making it really difficult for the multiplayer community to exist. Bomber squadrons, for instance, rely on everyone having the time (which most of us don't) to unlock stuff in singleplayer. I realise that according to your calculations the multiplayer contingent isn't that large, but it's key for recruiting new players to the game and keeping the community together. 

Either leave unlocks for singleplayer only, or have unlocks for multiplayer and singleplayer, so that friends can at least have fun flying together whilst unlocking stuff. Right now, you're just making it difficult for squadrons, multiplayer and the community in general, to function properly. 

 

EDIT: whilst you now know my/our thoughts, I really appreciate the communication!

Edited October 5, 2014 by 19te.Leaf

[Voidhunger]

Offtopic. Demon souls was pretty much the first butt kicking hardcore game for mostly casual console user base. Meanwhile IL2BOS is just another complicated flight sim, it has no radical sensation in it. It's a continuation of a 13 year old game, and it was never supposed to blow your mind and fit every expectation of the boards. And I tell you what - it's absolutely the best flight sim ever for the money that we had for development.

hmmm for me as a only single player guy i need good singleplayer experience + good graphic and fm together. and I rather have worse fm and graphic with good career mode.

BOS looks nice and has good fm , but for me is worse than old IL2.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Voidhunger

[AuroraJutilainen]

Unlocks give you motivation, smth to keep flying for, something rewarding your success.

no, realistic flight models, overall immersion, sense of flight, and accurately detailed aircraft are the core of whats needed to want to fly in a sim. If a so called 'flight sim' thinks it needs to be like mainstream FPS with promotions and unlocks to be a good SIM........ 

[Anw.StG2_Tyke]

Offtopic. Demon souls was pretty much the first butt kicking hardcore game for mostly casual console user base. Meanwhile IL2BOS is just another complicated flight sim, it has no radical sensation in it. It's a continuation of a 13 year old game, and it was never supposed to blow your mind and fit every expectation of the boards. And I tell you what - it's absolutely the best flight sim ever for the money that we had for development.

Then, why does it has such a success on the PC also?

 

I don't want to offend you but just one thing. Nobody cares if this is the best thing you could achieve with the money you had. Because in the end it doesn't really matter what you made out of your budget, it only matters what the people can play. And if this is just not enough or the expectation isn't reached than the game won't be remembered as the best flight sim ever made with the budget they had but remind as: Ahh IL-2:BoS another flop from the IL2 franchise because "insert multiple reasons why there are so many uproars in the forum".

[Voidhunger]

I too would enjoy a career Mode but they said very few people played it in RoF...and they, I am sure have the stats to back that up..the cost of producing did not warrant the popularity in reality

 

Maybe WWII crowd are diferent?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

its simple Pat wilson made better career mode

[dburne]

If the majority of ROF players didn't play the campaign then I've often wondered why the multiplayer aspect wasn't the focus of this game ... :/

 

 

I did two things when the announcement came out about BOS - first I signed up on this forum, ( then when EA was available purchased it), and downloaded the free to play version of ROF.

Right after I did this, I purchased the ICE edition of ROF. First thing I did was go through the training campaign, which I thought was really neat. Then, started flying a beta Career.

I love the Career mode, flying with my squadmates, progressing through achievements, losing some squadmates ( sadly ) when they would get killed, then new ones joining in.

I thought wow, if they take this career mode and enhance it even further for BOS, I am going to be one happy camper...

its simple Pat wilson made better career mode

 

Yeah I have heard so many good things on his campaign mode, I am definitely going to have to go back into ROF and give it a try. Especially now...

[Klaue]

If the majority of ROF players didn't play the campaign then I've often wondered why the multiplayer aspect wasn't the focus of this game ... :/

 

+1

[Afwastus]

The game design decision is the message from our studio, it speaks for itself.

Unlocks give you motivation, smth to keep flying for, something rewarding your success. How can it be bad when you're given a bonus every time you reach a certain amount of game experience?

I wish we gave you no unlocks in the first place, but we had to test them and we let you do that.

 

Dude...have you guys even read up on social psychology?

 

You do know that rewarding people for things they already like to do, actually decreases their enjoyment of it?

 

If it would help the developers, I can provide you with five or six experiments and studies that show that rewarding people decreases the time they spend playing a game (or doing something like drawing). More importantly, that's not my opinion but actual scientific studies. It's called the overjustification effect.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[Rjel]

Then, why does it has such a success on the PC also?

 

I don't want to offend you but just one thing. Nobody cares if this is the best thing you could achieve with the money you had. Because in the end it doesn't really matter what you made out of your budget, it only matters what the people can play. And if this is just not enough or the expectation isn't reached than the game won't be remembered as the best flight sim ever made with the budget they had but remind as: Ahh IL-2:BoS another flop from the IL2 franchise because "insert multiple reasons why there are so many uproars in the forum".

You sure as Hell can't spend monies you don't have. Haven't they said repeatedly that BoS will be a work in progress?

[Aracno]

Offtopic. Demon souls was pretty much the first butt kicking hardcore game for mostly casual console user base. Meanwhile IL2BOS is just another complicated flight sim, it has no radical sensation in it. It's a continuation of a 13 year old game, and it was never supposed to blow your mind and fit every expectation of the boards. And I tell you what - it's absolutely the best flight sim ever for the money that we had for development.

 

Sorry Zac, but a game without FMB, or a future ones that will be a pain in the ass, and with an unlock sistem for MP it is not the continuation of IL2 1946.

Its another thing, very nice, but its another thing.

Unlock can give motivation in a campaign, but dont give anything to a MP player and is a nightmare for a squadron.

I fear you are going to put yourself in the middle of nothing, too much expensive for "WT like" gamers and not useful for simmers and organized squadrons.

And this would be a shame because indeed you did a really great work with this game.

 

Btw in this moment, while i'm writing, there are more players in the old IL2 1946 servers, than in BOS MP, this should tell you something, right?.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Aracno

[Anw.StG2_Tyke]

You sure as Hell can't spend monies you don't have. Haven't they said repeatedly that BoS will be a work in progress?

The consumer don't care about that. They want a finished product which fullfill their expectations. And in the end they just don't care if the budget was too small or something else.

[Vaxxtx]

I too would enjoy a career Mode but they said very few people played it in RoF...and they, I am sure have the stats to back that up..the cost of producing did not warrant the popularity in reality

 

Maybe WWII crowd are diferent?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

RoF career and even Pat Wilsons campaign got boring real fast. Its easy to see why it was not played much. There is only so much random missions you can play until you tire of it.

 And now they are doing the same thing in BoS but under the impression that unlocks will make it "fun".

 

I wish people would stop using RoF as a measuring stick as far as a SP campaign goes. Start using IL2's Dgen and DCG's deep campaigns, not an empty "career". Dont go backwards, move forward.

[falstaff]

Rewards...bonuses...whatever you want to call them....can go two ways.

 

If they blend with the context and have the right tone...great...you want to carry on.

 

If they seem silly and incongruous...or worse, patronising...you don't.

 

And as far as the SP mode seems concerned...why provide the detailed engine, gearbox and ECU, and nice interior...only to have the most basic bodywork and chassis?

 

Limited investment and time, yes, surely...but also bean-counter overview and insight? This game seems caught in the corridor between the detailed programmers, and the management just coming out of the room with the over-head projector and pie-charts in it.

 

It doesn't seem sure what it wants to be, ultimately.

[UVPalexej21]

Hi,

After 3 hours in campaign it is not a complety disaster but:

- The map is completely dead and without any life. 

  --Your mission is to escort bombers, 3 bombers appears after takeoff, flying to some place on the map, then 2 enemy fighter appears, I or my AI wingmans destroy them, go home. 

  --Your mission is a ground attack, you take off, fly to waypoint, you find 4 isolated artilery , destroy them, go home

  etc...

  etc... 

 

Why not include more (really more: 20 - 30) other aircraft with different tasks on each side. Ground units fighter their own battle. Supply aircraft etc....

 

-Playing on full real would be better without any messages like the big yealow one: You reach the waypoing, continue. Your mission is complete etc... 

 

Peace

Edited October 5, 2014 by UVPalexej21

[J2_Trupobaw]

Unlocks give you motivation, smth to keep flying for, something rewarding your success. How can it be bad when you're given a bonus every time you reach a certain amount of game experience?

I wish we gave you no unlocks in the first place, but we had to test them and we let you do that.

 

I think the swords, brillants, golden oak leaves, hero of Soviet Union (n times), photo of Zis or Volkswagen awarded to player, promotion, news of players XXth victory on first page of Vőlkischer Beobachter or Pravda, command of squadron or a wing and unlocks applying to campaign only would be more motivating. To me, at least . Unless you can't do that under Russian law?

I think the test showed something about the community and their willingness to go along with unlocks, too. 

 

Starting point is the ROF career mode and you can improve it through the time and than port it improved back to ROF.

Agreed. I hope that current campaign is what can be brought on release date and we will see it replaced / supplemented with career more as the game develops.

 

 

its simple Pat wilson made better career mode

 

This. Also, PWCG appeals more to the elitist elements of community, more or less the same kind that refuses to unlock things in BoS. You can't make a question thread about RoF stock career on official forums without getting "Play PWCG instead" as universal solution to all problems, supplemented with list of all shortcomings that stock career had n years ago when poster switched to PWCG. Stock RoF career shouldn't be used as measure of popularity of career modes because community is steering new players away from it and towards PWCG. Won't happen in BoS, IIRC Pat said he's not interested in WW2 and won't adapt PWCG. 

 

 

 

 

You do know that rewarding people for things they already like to do, actually decreases their enjoyment of it?

 

 

This assumes the rewards are intended for people who already like flying sims; I think they are made for  people that like to be awarded to teach them to enjoy flying sims.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Trupobaw

[VR-DriftaholiC]

I agree 100% Reading books about the time period it wasn't uncommon to come across flights of 20-40 russian ground attack planes with another 10-20 fighters flying cover.

[zippyPerrserker]

The reason the RoF career mode was never popular is because the missions are practically empty of air and ground units.  The interface and ranking system is the greatest piece of design I have ever seen in a campaign, but it is completely wasted as soon as you fly a mission.  You must try to understand.  The tiny number of AI units is exactly the reason the RoF campaign was not popular.

 

+1

[Afwastus]

This assumes the rewards are intended for people who already like flying sims; I think they are made for  people that like to be awarded to teach them to enjoy flying sims.

 

Indeed, but therein lies the problem with this idea: how do you make people who don't want to play flight sims play flight sim, so  that you can reward them for playing flight sims?

 

Do you really think rewards will change their opinion of a genre they dislike?

 

I mean to compare would you play Barbie Horse Adventure if I rewarded you with unlocks and XP if you did so?

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[Zak]

...

Thanks, sir, I wouldn't say better.

[NastyDog]

Unlocks give you motivation, smth to keep flying for, something rewarding your success. How can it be bad when you're given a bonus every time you reach a certain amount of game experience?

 

 

I think the problem is that older gamers are tyerd of the word unlocks in games it self , they dont give Sxxt fore that type of a bonus ....The game bonus they want is a fantastic graficsh blast ,stady game whit nice fps ,in sp and mp..... nice tools to do extra stuff like skins or a mp compain making ...they never ask UNLOCK STYLE alla call of duty or warthunder . so i can understand why some people here go nuts here on the forum ...fore my self i smoke a nice green one in the paper i buy in the coffeeshop last night here on the conner

Edited October 5, 2014 by NastyDog

[Dakpilot]

Dude...have you guys even read up on social psychology?

 

You do know that rewarding people for things they already like to do, actually decreases their enjoyment of it?

 

If it would help the developers, I can provide you with five or six experiments and studies that show that rewarding people decreases the time they spend playing a game (or doing something like drawing). More importantly, that's not my opinion but actual scientific studies. It's called the overjustification effect.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect

 

I guess Sony forgot to read that when they released the most successful ever car game/sim....and six sequels....

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Afwastus]

You don't perhaps think that Sony released a very successful car game because there are more people interested in cars?

 

It would be more relevant to ask, "How many people play Gran Turismo because they enjoy getting XP and unlocking things?" or "How many GT players kept playing because of unlocks/XP?"

 

I'm not saying that you can't be successful if you have rewards in a game, but I am saying that years of research indicate that consistent rewards are not the best motivator (i.e. +20 XP for shooting down an enemy fighter).

 

Hell, if we want to go all Behavior Psychology on this the best system of rewards to get a desired behavior is to randomly reward people for a behavior, randomly in this case both in regards to time and the frequency of behavior.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[Dakpilot]

You don't perhaps think that Sony released a very successful car game because there are more people interested in cars?

 

It would be more relevant to ask, "How many people play Gran Turismo because they enjoy getting XP and unlocking things?"

 

I'm not saying you can't be successful if you have rewards in a game, but I am saying that years of research indicate that consistent rewards are not the best motivator (i.e. +20 XP for shooting down an enemy fighter).

 

logic fail...unlocks and rewards are the core of that franchise

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Livai]

Indeed, but therein lies the problem with this idea: how do you make people who don't want to play flight sims play flight sim, so  that you can reward them for playing flight sims?

 

Do you really think rewards will change their opinion of a genre they dislike?

 

I mean to compare would you play Barbie Horse Adventure if I rewarded you with unlocks and XP if you did so?

 

Steam Sales 25% 50% 75% the best reward for the customer. If they follow this Idea with XP, unlocks they should not forget that Steam Sales belong to this, too. 

How many grab games during Steam Sales even if they dislike or never played this genre before.

[Afwastus]

logic fail...unlocks and rewards are the core of that franchise

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

So people don't play them because they like cars? So, in your opinion if Sony releases GT 25 and it focus on horses, they will still break sales records as long as they have unlocks and rewards?

 

 

Steam Sales 25% 50% 75% the best reward for the customer. If they follow this Idea with XP, unlocks they should not forget that Steam Sales belong to this, too.  

How many grab games during Steam Sales even if they dislike or never played this genre before.

 

When do you expect BoS will be on sale at 25%, 50% or 75%?

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[Dakpilot]

And cars are relevant to this...

 

Afwastus, on 05 Oct 2014 - 18:11, said:

Dude...have you guys even read up on social psychology?

 

You do know that rewarding people for things they already like to do, actually decreases their enjoyment of it?

 

If it would help the developers, I can provide you with five or six experiments and studies that show that rewarding people decreases the time they spend playing a game (or doing something like drawing). More importantly, that's not my opinion but actual scientific studies. It's called the overjustification effect.

 

anyway I am out of this strain of conversation

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Anw.StG2_Tyke]

logic fail...unlocks and rewards are the core of that franchise

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Ehhh not?

Because the SP-Game of GT is pretty straight forward and is more or less based on the fact that your driver improves. If you want to drive a specific car or in a series to achiev the goal of the game (For example World Champion) you have to win races and earn money. This is a simple reward system, which also works in World of Warcraft.

The rewards make in their environment sense and are good built into the game. In a WW2 Game rewards in this style donT make any sense because the environment doesn't support them.

[Afwastus]

And cars are relevant to this...

 

 

Cars are relevant because you refered to the success of a major racing game and suggested that because it is successful, there is a correlation between unlocks/XP and sales. I.e. "Gran Turismo sold well and has unlocks, therefore unlocks = large # of sales (which is not very good science or logic, "correlation is not causation").

 

I'm suggesting that it may instead be because those players actually enjoy racing and cars. 

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[zippyPerrserker]

Voidhunger, on 05 Oct 2014 - 08:51, said: Starting point is the ROF career mode and you can improve it through the time and than port it improved back to ROF.

 

Agreed. I hope that current campaign is what can be brought on release date and we will see it replaced / supplemented with career more as the game develops.

 

 

+1

[Livai]

When do you expect BoS will be on sale at 25%, 50% or 75%?

 

6 months after release. Halloween 25%, Christmas 50% New Year 2016 75%

[unreasonable]

Now that I have finally managed to download and get going, a few constructive proposals for improving the campaign mode:

 

1) I like to play expert with nothing on the screen, which I can do, but the one thing I have to have is the chat box. Since I do not speak either Russian or German (and please do not tell me that I should learn!) this is the only way I can tell what is going on. Please link the chat box to a key setting independently of the HUD so that we can use it without having the strange blue icons or the yellow text messages. I believe many MP flyers would appreciate this as well.

 

2) I have played two long intercept missions as German. Both had rather heavy cloud which meant that I was unable to locate the bombers myself, although after I told the wingmen to carry on I did get a radio message from Volcano saying the objective was accomplished. Flew back over the exit point (or so I believe), good landings. On exit get the "mission is still in progress" button, exit anyway, zero points.

 

I do not particularly care TBH, because I am quite happy to put in the time in new missions, but if you are going to have an unlock system (which I do not feel strongly about) at least do not design it so that it punishes sensible flying. Why not award some points for t/o and landing even if the mission objectives are not met?

 

3) Wingmen: sometimes the commands were acknowledged, sometimes not, even when the AI were very close. Not sure if there is a bug here?

 

Additionally, their formation flying leaves much to be desired. After calling them into V formation I flew for about 5 minutes straight and level at an economy cruise setting. The 2 who were around did follow me, but lagged so far behind (300m+) that I could barely see them at about 5.50 o'clock. They should be at my 4 and 8 o'clock. This still needs some work. RoF planes managed it (at least the onlines) so I am hopeful this can be tweaked.

 

Lastly on this topic I would really like an option to fly as just a pair - quite realistic for the German side when they were stretched for operational aircraft, and easier to manage. Perhaps this is already in as a future "unlock"?

[Afwastus]

6 months after release. Halloween 25%, Christmas 50% New Year 2016 75%

 

So the plan of action is to wait six months for the unlock fixated gamers to binge purchase the game when it is on a steam sale?

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[APIKalimba]

Obviously, 777 NEEDS to implement such things like "unlocks" and "rewards" in BOS. Otherwise, they would not do it it since almost everyone here dislikes  it.

So my question is more like : Why do 777 absolutely need to go that way ? Maybe  its the only ( or best)  way 777 found to ensure BOS viabilty and future development ?

If so , should'nt we support our team ? 

 

Kal

[Afwastus]

Maybe there could be an option to pay $10-20 more and not have to deal with XP or unlocks?

 

Pros:

More money for 777/1C

Unlocks/XP still available for those who want it

Those of us who don't want to grind for unlocks don't have to

 

Cons:

Players have to pay a bit more

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus