Developer Diary, Part 81

[No601_Prangster]

The fact is that if they created game for the people on who post on flight sim forums they would go bust in a week. There's just not enough of you. They need to attract more main stream gamers and to do that they need good reviews in the main stream gaming press. Game reviewer don't spend a lot of time delving into the complexities of a game, at least not for a niche game like BoS. They'll go strait to the main game play element, in this case the campaign, and play a few missions. What they'll be looking for is a familiar game playing experience, that is they expect to make some progress and be rewarded for success. If you can give them something familiar they will understand it and possible like it. This will provide good reviews which in turn will drive sales. This seems to be IC Game Studios' strategy and it might just work!

 

What won't work is trying to sell the mainstream gaming press a product with lots of detailed aircraft with accurate FM but no game play beyond a series of static missions or a geeky dynamic career system where you are stuck in a single plane type and may get a medal or promotion after a dozen historically accurate missions. Yes this is probably what the majority of people on the forums want but, as I said previously, there just aren't enough of you to keep a flight sim developer in business.

 

However the good news is that you can have your static campaigns and dynamic careers because the community will create them, hell I'll be doing a campaign as soon as I get my hands on the ME.

 

And yes I do understand the angst over unlocks in MP. OK this is the way it is done in the majority of AAA shooter, you unlock the big asses gun in single player so you can use them in MP, think Destiny. I'm not sure that it's necessary in BoS but frankly most of the unlocks are pretty useless anyway. The bigger guns just add weight and kill your maneuverability and if you can't get a kill in this game with just the default weapons then you really need to spend more time practicing you aim. 

 

So in conclusion I think that this is a last throw of the dice to get a complete WWII flight sim into the mainstream, if this doesn't work then I don't see another developer coming along in future to try it. So let's try and be optimistic and at least hope that they succeed. In the mean time I'm rather enjoying the campaign.

[wellenbrecher]

Hm yeah, it worked to well for WT's FRB mode and Microsoft Flight, didn't it?

And Guild Wars 2, to repeat that example.

 

Okay, here's a major bug. I'm level 4 whatever expert and I'm flying my Bf109F for 3 or more mission without a gunsight. It doesn't work on the F4. It doesn't really matter since I don't have a clue at what altitude to intercept any of the bombers I'm supposed to destroy. When I get to the target area it says fly to exit. No kills, no bombers, no idea what fligh level, no working gunsight, no need to land = mission accomplished. I even ulocked some bombs I will never have to use... since I can't even use my guns

 

not even in QMB... my Bf109F is blind...

Move your head to the right and up.

You can see the end of the reticule in the screenshot.

Edited October 4, 2014 by [JG2]G3_wellenbrecher

[indiaciki]

Thanks wellenbrecher ! Didn't notice I messed up my view

[LukeFF]

Just wait till we're shelling out £15.99 for an aircraft, only to have to unlock it in SP first! :lol:

 

It's been said a thousand times that you won't have to unlock a plane that you've paid for. C'mon, this is getting ridiculous.

Edited October 4, 2014 by LukeFF

[Afwastus]

The fact is that if they created game for the people on who post on flight sim forums they would go bust in a week. There's just not enough of you. They need to attract more main stream gamers and to do that they need good reviews in the main stream gaming press. Game reviewer don't spend a lot of time delving into the complexities of a game, at least not for a niche game like BoS. They'll go strait to the main game play element, in this case the campaign, and play a few missions. What they'll be looking for is a familiar game playing experience, that is they expect to make some progress and be rewarded for success. If you can give them something familiar they will understand it and possible like it. This will provide good reviews which in turn will drive sales. This seems to be IC Game Studios' strategy and it might just work!

 

 

Sure, but said "mainstream" gamers will also look at how the current "investors" feel about the game. If they are met with a disappointed, frustrated and displeased group of regular flight simmers they will look elsewhere. Look at War Thunder for an example of this, even the most regular of mainstream gamers is starting to steer clear of that title because of displeasure with the game from the various types of players.

 

Again however, the problem isn't that there are things ingame that appeal to the mainstream gamers, it's that people are shoehorned into playing modes they don't want to play.

 

For instance, if unlocking things was only necessary in and for SP, mainstream gamers could feel right at home, but the MP community wouldn't be left out in the cold. So to be perfectly clear, you can have both arcade/mainstream options and options that are targeted for flight simmers as long as you let people choose themselves which way they wish to play the game.

 

People are angry because no one likes to lose all agency, no one wants to play a game where no matter what sort of gameplay they prefer they are forced to play another (even if its only for a brief period of time).

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[wellenbrecher]

An error occurred

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

 

Feel +1'd

[dburne]

 

 

For instance, if unlocking things was only necessary in and for SP, mainstream gamers could feel right at home, but the MP community wouldn't be left out in the cold.

 

Not necessarily, I have seen a lot of SP guys pretty unhappy with this as well.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

The fact is that if they created game for the people on who post on flight sim forums they would go bust in a week. There's just not enough of you. They need to attract more main stream gamers and to do that they need good reviews in the main stream gaming press. Game reviewer don't spend a lot of time delving into the complexities of a game, at least not for a niche game like BoS. They'll go strait to the main game play element, in this case the campaign, and play a few missions. What they'll be looking for is a familiar game playing experience, that is they expect to make some progress and be rewarded for success. If you can give them something familiar they will understand it and possible like it. This will provide good reviews which in turn will drive sales. This seems to be IC Game Studios' strategy and it might just work!

 

What won't work is trying to sell the mainstream gaming press a product with lots of detailed aircraft with accurate FM but no game play beyond a series of static missions or a geeky dynamic career system where you are stuck in a single plane type and may get a medal or promotion after a dozen historically accurate missions. Yes this is probably what the majority of people on the forums want but, as I said previously, there just aren't enough of you to keep a flight sim developer in business.

 

However the good news is that you can have your static campaigns and dynamic careers because the community will create them, hell I'll be doing a campaign as soon as I get my hands on the ME.

 

And yes I do understand the angst over unlocks in MP. OK this is the way it is done in the majority of AAA shooter, you unlock the big asses gun in single player so you can use them in MP, think Destiny. I'm not sure that it's necessary in BoS but frankly most of the unlocks are pretty useless anyway. The bigger guns just add weight and kill your maneuverability and if you can't get a kill in this game with just the default weapons then you really need to spend more time practicing you aim. 

 

So in conclusion I think that this is a last throw of the dice to get a complete WWII flight sim into the mainstream, if this doesn't work then I don't see another developer coming along in future to try it. So let's try and be optimistic and at least hope that they succeed. In the mean time I'm rather enjoying the campaign.

So yeah dumb it down so the console players will feel right a home and give it a good review. Don't worry about the thousands who paid 100 US for alpha/beta access and thought they were helping to make a game take shape. Weekly contact with the dev's and updates and all. What is a mainstream gamer? I've been gaming since 2004 and I have yet to meet one that is a "mainstream gamer" . Not an attack on you ,I'm just trying to understand this. If a game reviewer wont dive deep into a game before giving a review he or she needs to be fired or get another job. So we make games that are a quick fix,fast and appeal to the mainstream 20 something that were born after the grunge thing happened? 

[dburne]

So yeah dumb it down so the console players will feel right a home and give it a good review. Don't worry about the thousands who paid 100 US for alpha/beta access and thought they were helping to make a game take shape. Weekly contact with the dev's and updates and all. What is a mainstream gamer? I've been gaming since 2004 and I have yet to meet one that is a "mainstream gamer" . Not an attack on you ,I'm just trying to understand this. If a game reviewer wont dive deep into a game before giving a review he or she needs to be fired or get another job. So we make games that are a quick fix,fast and appeal to the mainstream 20 something that were born after the grunge thing happened? 

 

I am afraid they are going to find out, that those thousands that paid up front for Early Access, and were with them from the very beginning for the most part, and are being the most vocal of the latest developments - are their mainstream customers.

[AuroraJutilainen]

lol pretty great campaign so far, I got shot by a friendly AI while I was on a yak's 6 and failed the mission due to engine damage from said shot. 10/10 enjoyable grind, no faults whatsoever 

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Agree with both of you. DB and Extreme one.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Blackwolf

[Chuck_Owl]

@5:55

Riiiiiiiiight....

[39bn_pavig]

Hotas setup: $200-500

Trackir: $200

Pedals: $150-$400

Gaming rig: $2000 and up

Fancy flight seat: $400

Wanting your money back for a $90 sim that you've been playing for months: priceless.

[Rjel]

You would think , but that certainly does not appear to be the case.

But really, how many are having such an issue with the system as it stands now? It sure isn't the majority here. They might be the most vocal, but they certainly aren't most in number.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Rjel

[Afwastus]

I think that regardless of how you feel about the system, it's important to note that at this point in time no one has the data to claim that a majority is for or against the current unlock system. 

 

If we are going to start talking about statistical analysis, for example if a majority of players enjoy unlocks or not, then we also need to have some proper data to utilize.

 

I hope I don't have to explain how flawed it would be to extrapolate either that all players hate the features because of the number of negative posts or vice versa that most players are fine with unlocks because when compared to the total number of players the number posting complaints is less.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[novicebutdeadly]

But really, how many are having such an issue with the system as it stands now? It sure isn't the majority here. They might be the most vocal, but they certainly aren't most in number.

What percentage or people have the game and are active on the forum?

 

What percentage of that number disagree with the unlock system as it currently is, and see that other people have raised the issue and so don't feel the need to comment?

 

How many people just quietly walk away from a game instead of posting on every forum (I didn't post on any forum when I walked away from BF4 after 2 weeks, or Supreme Commander 2 after about a month)?

 

 

A proper way would be to conduct a poll, if possible through the launcher, that forced people to vote yay or nay in regards to the current unlock system before the game would load up.

Edited October 5, 2014 by novicebutdeadly

[Afwastus]

Again, I'd like to point out that your method is not a very good way to collect data, nor is it a suitable method of analyzing statics and therefor it is fairly irresponsible to conclude this or that based on what you consider solid numbers.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[Feathered_IV]

A comment for the comment: the unlock system is not about to be changed yet. It hasn't been considered at all.

The campaign logic and saturation with events may improve IF we find out that the whole campaign mode is interesting to you, the players. ROF had a superb career mode but it was never popular.

 

The reason the RoF career mode was never popular is because the missions are practically empty of air and ground units.  The interface and ranking system is the greatest piece of design I have ever seen in a campaign, but it is completely wasted as soon as you fly a mission.  You must try to understand.  The tiny number of AI units is exactly the reason the RoF campaign was not popular.

[Jason_Williams]

 

Don't worry mate, it's clear you were in an impossible situation from the beginning.

 

Unfortunately, because 1C/777 decided to fund your server, they decided that by doing so it was within their rights to stop any of you guys from being able to express any opinion that was contrary to the 1C/777 ethos. I guess that's fair enough.  

 

 

Don't worry mate, it's clear you were in an impossible situation from the beginning.

 

Unfortunately, because 1C/777 decided to fund your server, they decided that by doing so it was within their rights to stop any of you guys from being able to express any opinion that was contrary to the 1C/777 ethos. I guess that's fair enough.  

 

 

 

When I provide money for anyone to have special access to our systems and technology and work as a team member instead of a regular customer, there are certain professional and discretionary expectations that goes along with that. Some on the SE team went overboard in their reactions to something they knew would happen and instead of working with me to find solutions to issues I knew were coming, which was the reason for working with talented 3rd party people in the first place they decided to attack. I'm simply not obligated to provide funding for folks or give special access to folks who can't work with me on a discreet professional basis. I work with a half dozen others or so on this level for years and it's worked fine until this episode. I did not say anyone on SE could not speak their mind, that is a lie. It's how they said it that was out of line. Showed me a personal lack of respect that I did not appreciate after all I have done to give them the tools they asked for.

 

When you work with someone on a confidential basis, you need to be able to trust them and what occurred told me otherwise. A very simple situation.

 

Whenever I need to put my manager hat on with "friends" people always get their feelings hurt. Was my mistake in the first place for even entertaining this idea.

 

Jason

[Urra]

Many thanks for everything to the Devs. I was looking forward to doing the unlocks even twice without too much issue and to find bugs. Was looking forward to unlocking everything to play Multiplayer in the US. But with the only US objective based server of (Eagle's Nest) gone I've decided it's better to sit in a dark room. Sincerely - slightly Depressed.

Edit. Was writing my post at same time as the Above post. So this is not meant as a reply to the above post. Hope there may be another such server possibility in the future.

Edited October 5, 2014 by roaming_gnome

[novicebutdeadly]

Again, I'd like to point out that your method is not a very good way to collect data, nor is it a suitable method of analyzing statics and therefor it is fairly irresponsible to conclude this or that based on what you consider solid numbers.

 

@ my comment?

[indiaciki]

If BoS was a bad sim nobody would complain. People would just leave. It's great  as is ROF. That's why all those people complain. I don't care about the camaign and the unlocks. I didn't fly the RoF career and I won't fly the SP in BOS. I'll do my training in QMB and fly MP. But, compared to the RoF career this one is complete nonsense. Don't force adults and I know that ww2 sims are flown by adults only to go through a pathetic game pattern. BoS was great even without missions or careers. It's a sim flown by peaople who fly sims and it's a good one. Don't spoil it with childish reward systems. Kids won't play it exept in "Normal" mode if they'll play it at all. They don't even know what messerschmitt, Stuka or Yak mean and they don't care at all.

Edited October 5, 2014 by indiaciki

[Afwastus]

@ my comment?

Nah, it wasn't specifically aimed at you.

 

 

Many thanks for everything to the Devs. I was looking forward to doing the unlocks even twice without too much issue and to find bugs. Was looking forward to unlocking everything to play Multiplayer in the US. But with the only US objective based server of (Eagle's Nest) gone I've decided it's better to sit in a dark room. Sincerely - Depressed.

 

 

Come on gnome! You get to play the single player campaign twice! You should be overjoyed right now!

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[novicebutdeadly]

Nah. :D

 

I didn't think so 

[jarg1]

It's all been said, but I'll throw in my two cents worth.  First, I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  Sure, BoS may have features that an individual doesn't like.  I'm guessing that is true for every flight sim ever made.  But let's keep this in perspective.  It is still a great flight sim. My concern is that the complaints may give the wrong impression to potential customers, and given the decline in the genre, I think we need to do what we can to encourage more participation so that developers will have a reason to continue their work.

[indiaciki]

does the autopilot unlock "normal" mode method work in mp and QMB expert mode? Do you keep the unlocked assets once you switch to expert mode?

[Urra]

 

Nah, it wasn't specifically aimed at you.

 

 

 

 

Come on gnome! You get to play the single player campaign twice! You should be overjoyed right now!

I immediately made that appointment with my dentist I was pushing off for the last 6 months. I miss my dentist.

[Afwastus]

 

does the autopilot unlock "normal" mode method work in mp and QMB expert mode? Do you keep the unlocked assets once you switch to expert mode?

 

 

You keep the stuff you unlock during the campaign in other modes and regarding expert mode, the difference is merely that you get more XP per mission.

 

The easiest way to go about completing the campaign if you aren't interest in grinding is to just run ground attack missions over and over on autopilot and x16 time compression. You can read a book or browse while you do it, but on occasion you will have to babysit the autopilot and obviously end/start the missions.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Afwastus

[GOZR]

Ok I think everyone are nervous due to the unknown ..  I think the Campaign is actually very well and cool to have, for anyone that want to fly offline. So lets it be clear.. Campaign is great !!  no doubt but the problem that is occurring is actually just the fact to unlocking for Multiplaying..  here easy fix..

 

what need to be done:

-Online and OFFline should be separate ( will make campaign and Online able to grow )

-Textures of snows need to be dirtier at battle scenes and Airfields.

-FM tweak CG while landing ( a minimum ) ( Russian aircraft  to my knowledge)

-other tweak there and there ( Joystick range and maybe like RoF aircraft have their own controls set to be adjusted )

 

So briefly it's not alarming when you see it that way. ..There are some great things into BoS imo .. now need to convince the Devs to really separate the OFFline and ONline.. and the Sim will be a success of-course adding a better easier mission editor and SDK (tools ) would be fantastic for the grows of the sim and community.  Comon Jason I faith on you  

Edited October 5, 2014 by GOZR

[indiaciki]

Thanks Afwastus !

[Taxman]

It's all been said, but I'll throw in my two cents worth.  First, I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  Sure, BoS may have features that an individual doesn't like.  I'm guessing that is true for every flight sim ever made.  But let's keep this in perspective.  It is still a great flight sim. My concern is that the complaints may give the wrong impression to potential customers, and given the decline in the genre, I think we need to do what we can to encourage more participation so that developers will have a reason to continue their work.

I agree with jag1.   Why do we as flight simmers love to eat our own IE: the developers.  I was one of the first on board with this title, and watched it be developed over last 16 months or so.  BOS is still  in BETA which all us here sighed up for.  My take is that these forums where for us to give the developers feed back and ideas, my concern is how many of you that are now dissing BOS ever read what you where singing up for as a BETA tester?  I know I did.

[FuriousMeow]

The reason the RoF career mode was never popular is because the missions are practically empty of air and ground units.  The interface and ranking system is the greatest piece of design I have ever seen in a campaign, but it is completely wasted as soon as you fly a mission.  You must try to understand.  The tiny number of AI units is exactly the reason the RoF campaign was not popular.

 

 

Well, that was WWI. It wasn't hundreds of aircract engaging hundreds of aircraft with thousands of tanks below. Sure, millions of infantry - mostly sitting in their trenches unless there was an over the top battle to be had - but that just isn't do-able on any system regardless of the engine. Most engagements consisted of a flight of 3 to 9 engaging a flight of 3 to 9, not exactly huge numbers and pretty close to what RoF delivered.

 

RoF's compaign and mission design covered WWI pretty damn well as far as numbers go.

Edited October 5, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[oblongmushroom]

19 pages of responses in a DD that began just yesterday.

 

Says a lot.

 

My thought exactly.

 

In any event

if people knew or not about the SP design, if I was the developer this would tell me something I need to know! This may be silly but I hoped the SP direction would have evolved during production. I may be alone in this but in order to be a truly immersive combat sim you need to have a dynamic campaign or something that feels like its totally dynamic. i could go on but i feel its a lost cause to labor my points. Some day i hope we do see developers truly doing it right all the way. I want a simulation experience not a game if that makes any since!

 

anyway best of luck to the devs maybe they inspired others to take on the task!

[1./JG42Nephris]

Jarg, I know one cant dicuss about favor, but calling the campaign a great piece sounds somewhat naive or not orientated on what even old Il2 1946 was able to offer.The campaign missions are simply heartless generated missions by a QMB on a masterserver, point.However that is not the reason of the heating situation.

 

 For those who still didnt get the point of all that trouble:

Players are forced to waste time in a gaming mode they simply do not play or better dont want to be bothered to play.

Connecting the unlock feature between SP to give effect in MP, without offering the ability to earn XP in MP aswell is slightly off.

 

It doesnt matter, if future customers get the impression the game got a problem right now.

As big parts of customers, who already bought the game and financially supported the game from the beginning are indeed of the opinion the game has a problem now - as you can read the past 20 pages (-2 pages dedicated to the Kumbaya section). That doesnt mean the game itself is bad (the opposite is fact appearently), but it feels more and more like being in a control bondage club.

Edited October 5, 2014 by 1./JG42Nephris

[AbortedMan]

When I provide money for anyone to have special access to our systems and technology and work as a team member instead of a regular customer, there are certain professional and discretionary expectations that goes along with that. Some on the SE team went overboard in their reactions to something they knew would happen and instead of working with me to find solutions to issues I knew were coming, which was the reason for working with talented 3rd party people in the first place they decided to attack. I'm simply not obligated to provide funding for folks or give special access to folks who can't work with me on a discreet professional basis. I work with a half dozen others or so on this level for years and it's worked fine until this episode. I did not say anyone on SE could not speak their mind, that is a lie. It's how they said it that was out of line. Showed me a personal lack of respect that I did not appreciate after all I have done to give them the tools they asked for.

 

When you work with someone on a confidential basis, you need to be able to trust them and what occurred told me otherwise. A very simple situation.

 

Whenever I need to put my manager hat on with "friends" people always get their feelings hurt. Was my mistake in the first place for even entertaining this idea.

 

Jason

 

I don't think anything I said warranted the reaction that was afforded. An unsolicited ultimatum out of the blue as a response to my following post:

 

 

The mission on the server has been adjusted for the new loadout limitations. Can't say I'm happy about the unlocks change since it limits a lot of features I was planning and was not expecting it to affect multiplayer. Also, why the game kicks you from the server when you attempt to spawn an aircraft with a loadout you don't have is beyond me...a simple "You cannot use this loadout" prompt would suffice, IMO.

Is a bit overkill in this context.

 

I understand the frustration over dealing with the community reaction of a design decision, but depriving the community--your customer base--of a valued resource during a development cycle that seemingly has neglected content for MP up to this point--that I and others put hundreds of hours of our personal time into because you felt the criticism and feedback was unprofessional and non-discretionary is simply a tactless way to go about things. I understand you're under no obligation to sustain your generous offering of the server, but in the same vein, I as a player and customer am not obligated to keep my opinion and feedback all "rainbows and sunshine". In any case, you're not punishing me, you're punishing your MP playing customers.

 

I find it unnecessary and unprofessional to keep finding posts like this, especially when I have been discreet in explaining the situation to the community involved and concerned with what has happened. If you'd like to continue this conversation, I urge you to contact me through other non-public means. You have my email/phone number.

[FuriousMeow]

Yes, I want Eagle's Nest back - it was a very nice server with a lot of amazing designs that will pave the way for future MP servers. Removing Eagle's Nest is taking away from the community a very needed and appreciated environment that many enjoy.

Edited October 5, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[oneeyeddog]

Judging from what you've written abortedMan, It doesn't appear to me that you said anything all that inflammatory, especially when one takes into consideration some of the comments and opinions posted in the last 24 hours. Certainly nothing that should result in the elimination of the Eagles Nest server. 

[indiaciki]

It's accually fun watching UAVs flying at 400m at 350-400km/h x 16 ( mach 6) and landing safely :D

[Jason_Williams]

I don't think anything I said warranted the reaction that was afforded. An unsolicited ultimatum out of the blue as a response to my following post:

 

 

Is a bit overkill in this context.

 

I understand the frustration over dealing with the community reaction of a design decision, but depriving the community--your customer base--of a valued resource during a development cycle that seemingly has neglected content for MP up to this point--that I and others put hundreds of hours of our personal time into because you felt the criticism and feedback was unprofessional and non-discretionary is simply a tactless way to go about things. I understand you're under no obligation to sustain your generous offering of the server, but in the same vein, I as a player and customer am not obligated to keep my opinion and feedback all "rainbows and sunshine". In any case, you're not punishing me, you're punishing your MP playing customers.

 

I find it unnecessary and unprofessional to keep finding posts like this, especially when I have been discreet in explaining the situation to the community involved and concerned with what has happened. If you'd like to continue this conversation, I urge you to contact me through other non-public means. You have my email/phone number.

 

No actually it was not I, but you who accused me of twisting your arm in public. Actually it wasn't even your comments that went over the line and you are not listening to what I have said you'd rather attack me. And all our conversation was in private until you made it public in the other thread. I am simply defending myself. I appreciate the effort you and other made to help make a cool BOS server. You can still do that if you wish, I'm just not going to be paying for it. That's it. The end.

 

Other servers will eventually fill the void if Eagle's Nest never re-appears.

 

Jason

[Mastermariner]

Thank you team for the 90%! Looking good as far as I can tell.

 

I haven't followed this thread but pieces I've seen reminded me of long time ago in ORR when the BlitzPiggs made demands and threatened to take the "community" and go elsewhere. And that was the end of communication with Oleg.

Master