VIDEO TEST 20mm.

[E69_geramos109]

 

Ok the video is here. Each one take his own conclusion but lets try to do a good discusion and lets see if we can do thigs easy for the Devs so no shit comments please.

 

So this is my point of view.

 

I make a lot of test, enought to take out all placebo and feelings. Some things surprised me from both points and i did not expect some things but taking all situations i can conclude that or Shvak is too overpowered or Mg151 is too weak and i expose the poins.

 

- For the wings i can conclude favoritism for any gun. Both are quite effective and they takes about the same hits to cut the wing. This view is limited because targuets are not pulling G so...

I realice something. The 109 control cables are a weak spot that you can destroy with a shot on the wing. Fracments? and when you break this part  the plane starts to shake and it desintegrates. But it happens to me with both guns.

 

- With the distance Svak is more effective than the MG151. And please someone explain me why. Muzzle velocity is about the same. Svak has some more speed due to his barrel extension mounted trhow the engine but is that 40m/s enought to be like a laser? Distance affects AP rouns but HE rounds are not affected. For both sides. Russian shell makes explossion with the same force and same for the German famous shell it has enought energy to penetrate the first thin layer and make the explosion inside. I notice a real lack of power at 200m and with more distance you need a ridiculous amount of hits. 

 

-Svak is more powerfull. No doubt about that with the test. When you hit the center of the planes (not the wings) you need noticeable less shots than with the german gun. Please explain me again. German shells has 3 TIMES the explosive weight the russian 20 has so... Why the Svak makes more damage? 3 TIMES more grams and the shell weights about the same between 90-100 grams. Ok bigger fragments but slower fragments too. With the german a lot of fast small fragments and much more explosive damage. 

Seems that Mg is not working. You can see a big smoke cloud but is like is making explossion outside the plane not inside. There are a lot of photos showing german 20mm damage.

 

- Test shows how i only stop to shot if i destroy enemy planes but we know what happens when a russian plane is laking, smoking or something like that. It can still flying and fighting a lot more time than a german plane. Some about the lift ratio when a wing is damaged will change for the next part so thanks for that and i hope to see no more Ufos with 100 holes on wings.

 

-Why germans can not chose the shells load like real pilots can do and like in Clifs of Dover? Will devs allow that in the future?

 

-Tell me if im wrong about that but the data of 700 rounds per minute (685 tested) seems near the synchronized version of the 151 where they cant hit the prop blades but the 109 has the non synchro version so should have about 780-800 rpm

 

-Im not sure what is hapening there but the he111 leaks cooling for the left side if you hit right cooler...

 

 

Some data here about the power of the shells and the guns: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&file=print&kid=483&page=1

 

Ok so is not placebo. Reds can not tell that is only feeling i make test lots of times but i have to recorded them to have a valid argumentation more than feelings. If someone tells me that im taking the tracks i want i will make a live video on you tube making more shots and results will not change.

Edited September 5, 2016 by E69_geramos109

[Luft1942]

Very thorough testing. Way better than the testing I did and I can't even get my video done :/ Have you showed this to Jason? I think he needs to see it. Something is not right and I retract my previous statement I made on the other topic. Something very fishy is going on with 20mm Minengeschoss and needs to be addressed. I was getting mixed results in my testing but your testing yields very different results and shows 20mm ShVAK is performing waaaay better.

[SCG_Neun]

Thank you.  We were just having a discussion about this very thing a few days ago.

[Cybermat47]

I don't have time to watch the whole video right now, but just to be clear, you did test the cannons by shooting at the exact same type of aircraft, and you did it in a controlled environment, which would obviously be a server with just you and someone flying the target straight and level, right?

[E69_geramos109]

I don't have time to watch the whole video right now, but just to be clear, you did test the cannons by shooting at the exact same type of aircraft, and you did it in a controlled environment, which would obviously be a server with just you and someone flying the target straight and level, right?

More or less. I test the guns with exact same aircraft. G2 shoting G2, G2 shoting yak. Yak shoting G2 and yak shoting yak. After that i test both guns with he 111 and il2.

Im hiting same place all the time with both planes.

 

I use the mision builder. The targuet is IA flying straight

Very thorough testing. Way better than the testing I did and I can't even get my video done :/ Have you showed this to Jason? I think he needs to see it. Something is not right and I retract my previous statement I made on the other topic. Something very fishy is going on with 20mm Minengeschoss and needs to be addressed. I was getting mixed results in my testing but your testing yields very different results and shows 20mm ShVAK is performing waaaay better.

Thanks

I have to send jason a private mesage with the video to show him? Or is enought posting here?

Thank you. We were just having a discussion about this very thing a few days ago.

Thanks. That is why i make the test

[Luft1942]

More or less. I test the guns with exact same aircraft. G2 shoting G2, G2 shoting yak. Yak shoting G2 and yak shoting yak. After that i test both guns with he 111 and il2.

Im hiting same place all the time with both planes.

 

I use the mision builder. The targuet is IA flying straight

Thanks

I have to send jason a private mesage with the video to show him? Or is enought posting here?

Thanks. That is why i make the test

To be honest, I would send him a message and hope he responds. This is really an important matter that needs to be looked into and resolved. Hopefully some devs will see this thread and watch your video. Edited September 5, 2016 by Luft1942

[BlitzPig_EL]

Without having icons on, you cannot replicate exact distances from test to test, hence test is invalid.  If you are going to present evidence, it has to be accurate.  This isn't.

 

I have no horse in this race as I seem to be able to kill what I'm aiming at, no matter which side I fly, even Italian.

Edited September 5, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[E69_geramos109]

Without having icons on, you cannot replicate exact distances from test to test, hence test is invalid. If you are going to present evidence, it has to be accurate. This isn't.

 

I have no horse in this race as I seem to be able to kill what I'm aiming at, no matter which side I fly, even Italian.

At close distance 10-20m difference should not represent a change.

At long range i can know the distance with the sight. Im not sure when im so far but is enought noticeable on the video you can hit from far distance with the svak. I was trying it whith the mg and the altitude correction was bigger.

If devs are enought interested and they ask me for more test i can make video showing long range shots with icons.

Edited September 5, 2016 by E69_geramos109

[Jizzo]

Nice video, very interesting testing.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

One thing that might be important and has to be considered (maybe most people here know but I don't and that's why I'm asking):

 

How is the composition of the ammo belts for both cannons? Do they have the same quantity of HE rounds? Does the MG 151/20 ammo belt have all of it's HEs as Mine shells, aren't there regular HE among them?

 

I know this was a lot of work and really appreciate it, since it's all effort for making the sim better and more accurate. But maybe a better way to test it would be a more controlled environment in which you shoot very close at another player which is flying straight, because sometimes with the turning AI some shots miss, and that's a bit of a problem since we don't know which type of ammo hit and which one miss, maybe for some of the tests the APs were the ones mosty hitting, or the other way around... that's why I would like to know the compositions of the ammo belts, and from there try to get hits with all of the shots so we can have an idea of how many HE/APs rounds were involved into damaging the airframe.

 

Also it would be a good idea to make these tests with markers on so you can measure accurately the distances to the target.

 

I'll leave a chart showing the results of each Yak vs 109 test (vs themselves)

 

 

My conclusion is that vs wings overall both cannons fare similarly, and overall both wings are similarly resistant. With the fuselage test looks like there is a lot of variation, and seems that quite some factors play into the final result (does the tail lose control, does the engine catches fire, does the fuel tanks catch fire, does the pilot die, etc). So as i'm told in my statistics class: with high amounts of variation you'll need a lot of samples to get the trends. And it would be nice to have these extra tests the most controlled possible (always being at the same distance, aiming at the same place), one way we could achieve this is with icons on  and a frontal bomber gunner for example, aiming at a stabilized plane ahead of it (problem is that there aren't ShVAK and MG 151/20 bombers (we would have to wait for He-177 and Pe-8 to be added). But yeah at a first glance looks like the MG 151/20 isn't as effective as one would expect vs fuselages, even though in one occassion it could do it in 3 shots.

 

And finally I would ditch the long range tests as there were no repetitions and are quite hard to achieve (lots of misses, and quite some incorrect shots, hitting fuselage when wanting to hit wing, hitting wing when wanting to hit fuselage).

Edited September 5, 2016 by -=PLR=-SuperEtendard

[150GCT_Veltro]

Well done, thank you.

To be honest, I would send him a message and hope he responds. This is really an important matter that needs to be looked into and resolved. Hopefully some devs will see this thread and watch your video.

 

+1

[Asgar]

wow, this is alarming. there is definitely something wrong here. I hope the Devs will react to this and fix it

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

After watching the clip, I think the results from the recording would indicate that there is something here that requires some checking regardless of the test not being "perfect".  Thanks for spending the time to put this online Geramos.

 

Some quick corrections, the 109G2 has an MG151/20 mounted in the nose, which fires the 20x82 round. Your video title screen shows the MGFF round (20x80RB) in comparison to the 20x99R of the ShVAK.

 

 

[Irgendjemand]

Thank you very much geramos for spending that time. I also agree - a polite PM to Jason hopefully will reach something. Definately something fishy here.

I think both sides agree the german mineshells should definately be noticeable more effective than the rissian 20mm.

[Matt]

 

 

How is the composition of the ammo belts for both cannons?  

 

Nose-mounted MG151 and MG151 of the Fw 190 and all MGFF  : HE/AP/HE

MG151 gunpods on Bf 109 : AP/HE

ShVak have AP/HE/AP composition (not sure about the Mig-3 though).

 

 

 

 Does the MG 151/20 ammo belt have all of it's HEs as Mine shells, aren't there regular HE among them?

 

No, only mine shells.

[LuftManu]

Thanks for the test Geramos!

 

For sure, there is something to check on actua damage, we need to do more research so they can make this even more realistic

 

Salute and thanks for your work!

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

This is a very nice comparison in writing

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[mb339pan]

 

Nose-mounted MG151 and MG151 of the Fw 190 and all MGFF  : HE/AP/HE

MG151 gunpods on Bf 109 : AP/HE

ShVak have AP/HE/AP composition (not sure about the Mig-3 though).

 

HE AP HE...

 

too general, what kind of ammunition HE and what type of AP are implemented in the game?

 

There is little doubt from luftwinner, in the 20mm Svak game makes such as 23mm Vya, 3 times more powerful

Edited September 5, 2016 by 150GCT_Pan

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

Nose-mounted MG151 and MG151 of the Fw 190 and all MGFF : HE/AP/HE

MG151 gunpods on Bf 109 : AP/HE

ShVak have AP/HE/AP composition (not sure about the Mig-3 though).

 

No, only mine shells.

So using the damage ratings from that well known site for loose comparison of the above ammo loadouts we are talking 582 damage rating for 3 shots of 151/20 rounds vs 292 damage for the shvak?

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

That would work in something like world of warplanes where you have hitpoints. But in reality different structures and areas react differently to various types of ammunition. There are too many variables to try to end it with two simple numbers and say x = 2y. 

[Luft1942]

Thank you very much geramos for spending that time. I also agree - a polite PM to Jason hopefully will reach something. Definately something fishy here.

I think both sides agree the german mineshells should definately be noticeable more effective than the rissian 20mm.

I'm sure strictly VVS players are very happy about 20mm Minengeschoss underperforming

 

Lord forbid if it was their ShVAKs underperforming, they would try and burn Moscow down

[mb339pan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutory_delusion

 

 

XD

[XQ_Lothar29]

 

Ok the video is here. Each one take his own conclusion but lets try to do a good discusion and lets see if we can do thigs easy for the Devs so no shit comments please.

 

So this is my point of view.

 

I make a lot of test, enought to take out all placebo and feelings. Some things surprised me from both points and i did not expect some things but taking all situations i can conclude that or Shvak is too overpowered or Mg151 is too weak and i expose the poins.

 

- For the wings i can conclude favoritism for any gun. Both are quite effective and they takes about the same hits to cut the wing. This view is limited because targuets are not pulling G so...

I realice something. The 109 control cables are a weak spot that you can destroy with a shot on the wing. Fracments? and when you break this part  the plane starts to shake and it desintegrates. But it happens to me with both guns.

 

- With the distance Svak is more effective than the MG151. And please someone explain me why. Muzzle velocity is about the same. Svak has some more speed due to his barrel extension mounted trhow the engine but is that 40m/s enought to be like a laser? Distance affects AP rouns but HE rounds are not affected. For both sides. Russian shell makes explossion with the same force and same for the German famous shell it has enought energy to penetrate the first thin layer and make the explosion inside. I notice a real lack of power at 200m and with more distance you need a ridiculous amount of hits. 

 

-Svak is more powerfull. No doubt about that with the test. When you hit the center of the planes (not the wings) you need noticeable less shots than with the german gun. Please explain me again. German shells has 3 TIMES the explosive weight the russian 20 has so... Why the Svak makes more damage? 3 TIMES more grams and the shell weights about the same between 90-100 grams. Ok bigger fragments but slower fragments too. With the german a lot of fast small fragments and much more explosive damage. 

Seems that Mg is not working. You can see a big smoke cloud but is like is making explossion outside the plane not inside. There are a lot of photos showing german 20mm damage.

 

- Test shows how i only stop to shot if i destroy enemy planes but we know what happens when a russian plane is laking, smoking or something like that. It can still flying and fighting a lot more time than a german plane. Some about the lift ratio when a wing is damaged will change for the next part so thanks for that and i hope to see no more Ufos with 100 holes on wings.

 

-Why germans can not chose the shells load like real pilots can do and like in Clifs of Dover? Will devs allow that in the future?

 

-Tell me if im wrong about that but the data of 700 rounds per minute (685 tested) seems near the synchronized version of the 151 where they cant hit the prop blades but the 109 has the non synchro version so should have about 780-800 rpm

 

-Im not sure what is hapening there but the he111 leaks cooling for the left side if you hit right cooler...

 

 

Some data here about the power of the shells and the guns: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&file=print&kid=483&page=1

 

Ok so is not placebo. Reds can not tell that is only feeling i make test lots of times but i have to recorded them to have a valid argumentation more than feelings. If someone tells me that im taking the tracks i want i will make a live video on you tube making more shots and results will not change.

Nice Job Geramos109.. Very necesary Video! One point and tahx for your time

[3./JG15_Kampf]

You did a good job. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. There will always be someone saying that the test is not valid. But now are not  "feelings" THX

[150GCT_Veltro]

2) How do you plan on balancing the game. I'm sure you and the Devs have had alot of discussions about this. Didn't the Germans have quite an advantage in aircraft back then? Thanks.

 

There will be no forced balance. We build aircraft as they were. Of course, in popular games, built on passion or F2P model, balance is needed. But we're working in a different genre, the value of this genre is just the lack of balance. Will the German planes have an advantage or not - we'll know only after we'll create them. And with such precision and detail which will be recreated for the first time, so I expect surprises.

 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?do=findComment&comment=8196

 

So, some surprises:

 

- MG151/20 were poor weapons compared to the Svak, or better.........not so good as we know they were;

- Wood structure is much better (toughness) than duraluminium in aeronautical engineering.

We can suppose now that MG151/20 would be more effective versus Spitfire and Yak-9....or probably totally useless.

 

I hope for a check before Yak-1b release.

Edited September 6, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Irgendjemand]

[Edited]

 

really you had to bring up that term over and over and over an over again even if there is obviously something wrong?

Well, at least spell it correct please. [Edited]

 

Thanks

Edited September 8, 2016 by Bearcat

[Irgendjemand]

really you had to bring up that term over and over and over an over again even if there is obviously something wrong?

Well, at least spell it correct please. "Luftwhiner".

 

Thanks

Heh (offtopic) actually it is time that we come up with a term that sarcastically describes VVS pilots that subbornly deny anything was wrong.

Ill start. What about:

 

VVScreamer

ALLIsfine

Luftdenier

Alliedantigravprophangmaster

 

Oh and please. Take it with a little humor by chance?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

I received this message by email, some weeks ago...  

 

 Gelding the ballistic and power of the German weapons  is "Fair Play"?? 

Edited August 21, 2017 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[Kurfurst]

- Wood structure is much better (toughness) than duraluminium in aeronautical engineering.

 

I hope for a check before Yak-1b release.

Behold the power of Stalinwood, honed and tempered true to the recipes of Oleg the Wise!!

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

To be fair what Soviet manufacturers used for a structure was much harder than average wood your desk is made of. And in regard to toughness, I dont think that anyone may have any doubts in ruggedness of other termite's dream - De Havilland Mosquito.

[E69_geramos109]

To be fair what Soviet manufacturers used for a structure was much harder than average wood your desk is made of. And in regard to toughness, I dont think that anyone may have any doubts in ruggedness of other termite's dream - De Havilland Mosquito.

Wood is not bad but remember mosquito dont have to suffer the g loads of a fighter. Was a heavy fighter, bomber, multiple rol. if you want to make a fighter with wood that can take a lot of damage and resist the G loads as well you have to oversice the structure much more than with metal construction and you have a lot of weight there like happens with lagg3.

Yak was a very light fighter with enought structural strength. they make a small fighter no need to make a big structure but at hight speeds wood structure flexion is too hight comparing metal structure.

In architecture we know something about structures. Wood works so similar to metal and both structures calculation are about the same but the dimensions and max loads change.

 

But this is other discussion and i dont have now the documentation to compare both structures. So tomorow i will send jason a pm and lets study in deep the problem with 20mm

Edited September 7, 2016 by E69_geramos109

[NZTyphoon]

Attached:From Handbuch der Flugzeug Bordwaffenmunition 1936 - 1945; ballistic data for MG 151 shells.

 

MG151 ballistics.pdf

From the same source:

 

2cm MG151 ammo colours.pdf

[XQ_Lothar29]

Attached:From Handbuch der Flugzeug Bordwaffenmunition 1936 - 1945; ballistic data for MG 151 shells.

 

MG151 ballistics.pdf

From the same source:

 

2cm MG151 ammo colours.pdf

interesting informationThx NZTyphoon

[Solty]

OP, I understand that it took you some time to get test done, but what I see is not realy an accurate test. Sorry.

 

We don't know the exact ammo types in the weapons. The game shows mix of AP/HE. What does that mean? What munitions are they realy? And where are the Tracer rounds, are they just Tracer or are they IT, or maybe they are APT or APIT etc.?

 

Also, we do not know which rounds hit at a given time, because a lot of the time you miss. So on one target you can get 3 hits with HE on whole wing and see little damage, and on the other run you can have 1 hit on the wingroot with AP and rip the wing off because it went through spars and weakened the structure.

 

This test would have to be done with much more precision to give any valid results. And they would have to be done a couple more times.

 

EDIT: Damage models should not be based on ammount of shells that hit the target, but the real damage the shell does. If I shoot with a 12,7mm API and hit your wing at the wing root with 1 or 2 shots both of them penetrate and damage the structure enough, the wing will fall off. While if you take your 20mm HEI round and are going to bang it on the steel plate behind the pilot, you can be sure nothing new happens.

 

People think that if they have a 20mm cannon, they can destroy anything with 2-5 shots. This is a wrong asumption. Many "victories" were scored because the pilot bailed out, many of them were scored without even hitting the target and some will be done with one shot to the engine block, while other will take 15 hits to the whole airplane which will account for some shattered skin and thats it.

 

Moral of the story is, try hitting something valuable! Like the engine or the control surfaces or wingroots, radiators etc.

Edited September 7, 2016 by =LD=Solty

[El_Babuino]

Ground test is more pricision, like that:

.

Also, you can see what in game "famous durability of stalinwood" equal to lufwaffe metal. Hello to luftwhiners

 

But unfortunally we dont have Svak-turret and MG151-turret.

Edited September 7, 2016 by ROSS_El_Babuino

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Well, as much as it is objective its also not very realistic since it obviously does not take into account wind and G forces affecting airframe. In reality such tests would be carried in wind tunnel to simulate standard flight conditions. Of course in game there is not perfect way of presenting things, still nice to see you doing this

[Asgar]

where is the wind tunnel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

For example here:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, maybe German British testing methods weren't up to standard in this occasion.

 

Edit: So that you will be satisfied

Edited September 7, 2016 by =LD=Hiromachi

[Asgar]

Hiromachi maybe it would help if you would read the text in the video. it was a test conducted by the Brits

[LuftManu]

Ground test is more pricision, like that:

.

Also, you can see what in game "famous durability of stalinwood" equal to lufwaffe metal. Hello to luftwhiners

 

But unfortunally we dont have Svak-turret and MG151-turret.

Thats german gun.

We must try that with russian gun also and with G forces involved.