Developer Diary, Part 38

[Sim]

That IL-2 in the video is... stunning. Thanks for the update!

 

 

Just pity than not in Friday-Sunday. Three days is very little period and in the middle of week.

 

My take on this is that the sim requires online component to function (it has already been mentioned that the campaign missions will be generated on the server for example). So while we are not getting the campaign with early access, the "online" functionality could be interlinked with other parts of the game. Basically, having a weekend testing phase with the servers crashing and no devs to look after them - would do us no good

 

Also, remember the latest EA SimCity launch accident? Having a limited and controlled access could prevent that.

[Szatanshow]

I have nothing against limited access period (controlled "test" will at least prevent another IL CLOD disaster) But why midweek when ppl mostly are in jobs or focusing on other important things?

Will be more sens to do it on weekends.

[FlyingNutcase]

use your judgement, mate. there's no such thing as 24/7 access not ready, but 24/3/7 access ready in the God's year 2013, internet era.

 

any decent reason fails to explain this odd limited access. the only reason for this would simply be "because the developer wishes so". the only logic behind this reason would be that they want to herd us into their convenient working time.

 

but there were other solutins for this. for example simply stating it "guys, we need you also during the week days", and we would have tried our best to help them. or condition weekend access to having at least 1h tesing during each working week day. or be creative, and stage events during the week days, so people would want to come.

 

but.. this? I'm sorry, but I find the way they've chosen disrespectful to me. and I'm sure many will agree.

 

with this little stunt they've transformed the premium early access in autumn (which we discovered to actually be only 2/12 weeks, ie around 15% of the autumn), in quite a late winter one (considering that they've already stated that "in the beginning (first 2-3 months) there will be only online play (for data gathering)", most probably this will coincide with the midweek 3 days only limited access period), this also meaning rather beginning of 2014 for a real unlimited beta access.

 

abd then, I ask you, where's my real early access in the autumn of 2013 most of us paid the premium price for?

 

Well, if I felt afronted like you do, I would ask for a refund and move on. It's only a game afterall. Isn't it??

 

The only free time I have during the week is time I create thru reduced sleep but so what - we've got years of amazing simming ahead of us. Did you see the gun and mantle on the IL2? And the light reflections on the fuselage from the rockets? All you need to do is ask yourself which course is best for you - leave the game and community or realise that this is the situation and hang tight for a bit.

[707shap_Srbin]

...

 

 

Dont cry on devs, or You risk devs will never do a IAR80

Just calm down man.

I've preordered premium, but I know I cant fly Early Access bacause my PC is 10-y.old crap.But I am happy anyway

[Caudron431]

Looking good.

Early access will not do much for me ( Tues-Thurs), as I travel for a living during the week which only leaves me the weekends. That is ok though, as I mainly pre-ordered Premium to support the sim and would not have time to provide much in the way of feedback anyway. At least I will be able to read about others experiences on the weekends, and I look forward to that.

That's the spirit!

 

@Panzerbar

I too preordered premium to support the sim (and also to be able to vote) but won't be able to play it, many people i know did it even before completing the building/upgrading of their new sim rig. Cool to see people knowing the real meaning of support. 

 

With people of this quality in the community its clear that its going to be great!

 

@1CGS nice update: the IL2, the effects and the landscape look fan-tas-tic

Edited October 26, 2013 by RegRag1977

[whatnot]

Firstly: beautiful vid of the IL-2! Unfortunately it makes the attached news even harder to swallow.

 

After reading through most of the thread I don't want to dwell too much on the sentiment of many people (me included), which is disappointment. But instead I'd like to comment / get clarity to few points that haven't been concluded yet:

 

1) If access limited to tue-thu period is a big deal for some people (me included) then it is a big deal! Don't belittle the topic like it's nothing.

 

The 'get a life, it's just a game, grow up' comments coming from many self-righteous forum members that seem to assume that by condescending a point of view which is opposed of their own somehow makes people change their minds. Well.. It does not! Those kinds of ad-hominem comments which often lack the constructive reasoning of 'why' are the fuel to the flame-war fire that have ruined many forums already. So seriously, try to come up with a civil and constructive way of voicing your differing opinion. You can read this to help you get better at it and I'm sure it'll keep the dialogue we have here much more enjoyable.

 

Secondly a word to the dev team: Whether you see the disappointment of the people here reasonable or not, or whether it would not stand up in court vs. what is stated in the 'terms and conditions' of the purchase makes no difference. It doesn't change the fact that a 'big' part of your hardcore fans are upset with this decision and you should address this with the gravity it deserves.

 

A lot of people seem to have paid for getting the early access and due to their personal schedules will not be able to use that option because of the limitations you've decided to apply. I'm not sure if this is some kind of an industry standard of premium paying beta testers to get access only on significantly limited schedules. But at least for me and many others I've noted, it's not something that is common knowledge and as the expectations and reality don't match, one easily feels mislead.

 

2) Why do we need to have the limited period anyway?

 

So your reasoning what I've understood from the posts so far is that the dev team want's to be 'in control' and 'monitor' the user experience during the test period. Secondly you state that you don't want 'another CLOD disaster' due to the negative impact it might have on the future popularity and hence revenue for future plans with the franchise and CFS genre in general.

 

I have hard time understanding your reasoning based on those arguments because:

 

• This is early access (alpha, beta, whatever) test version, NOT a ready product. Therefore bugs, glitches and crashes are an accepted and expected part of the early access experience! (Which also makes in incomparable to CLOD).
• Let's assume that I log in in the morning of the first tuesday and experience severe connectivity issues, massive FM bugs and bluescreens. What will you be able to do to control my experience? Release a fix in an hour? Shut down the whole early access while you patch it up?
• If you would not pull the plug for the whole early access in the case I made above, how would it be worse if someone would find that bug / instability on, say saturday morning? How is the tue-thu playing customer having a better experience finding issues of the early builds now that the 777 tiger-team in the IL-2 Norad will see the bug report coming in real time than it happening over the weekend?

 

I think these would be fair points to clarify as your reasoning I've seen so far doesn't justify the limitations you plan to impose on the early access. And before someone says it as a snarky remark: Yes, devs are not obligated to explain everything and they are allowed to do as they see fit. But helping us understand your decision will help keep your fans as promoters instead of turning into detractors for the title, which based on the comments I've seen is happening right now.

 

I'm afraid that this decision might actually have a bigger negative impact for the title than the concerns you have of the poor user experience during the weekends people might have. So I'd very much appreciate if you'd help us understand the 'why' of this part better and also be open to re-evaluate your position if the your reasoning behind this decision is challenged by the strong community reaction which we're seeing here.

 

Thanks!

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

hmm just read the russian equivalent of this post... no outcry at all. strange

Edited October 26, 2013 by F19_Klunk

[1./JG42Nephris]

Same for the german section.

Edited October 26, 2013 by 1./JG42Nephris

[Zak]

I am interested if there wil be a kind of ticket system to report bugs?

There will be one later, in winter. We don't intend to use premium founders as testers. However you will be offered to tell about issues you've noticed and report your suggestions in a special forum thread

 

most likely the restrictions wont last but a week or two before they get a handle on things...maybe longer - but at least we have something to get our mits on

 Yes, they won't last long, and Loft said so already. At some point you'll be allowed to play offline and then the full access will be opened 24/7

 

amazing! do you think we're stupid and that we don't know the game is not complete? we just want decent (if not full) access to what we saw it can be done until now: ie sit in the cockpit, takeoff, fly and then land with BF109 and LAGG3. we're completely aware there's no shooty shooty, that the few AI code existing lines are dumb as the night, and that there's nodogfight. and we'd be fine with that.

 No, we think (all right, we believe) that you're not stupid.

AI is far not dumb, I wish I could see you trying to out-maneuver a LaGG flying a LaGG, heh. Shooting will be available as well. BUT! There're 30 ppl here who need to create the game while you're playing it. Not some arcade crap but a flight sim which is always harder to develop than to operate it.

 

but to have to accept to swallow even more bitter pills from the hand of the developer, when they are unnecessary and so easy to avoid.. it's a thing beyond my understanding. are you guys masochists, or what?

 If we could or planned to avoid time-limited early access, we'd be probably developing 4 more games and lived on Bahamas.

 

abd then, I ask you, where's my real early access in the autumn of 2013 most of us paid the premium price for?

You are getting your early access on November 12th + unlocks + La-5 and Fw 190 - that's (in wide strokes) what you've paid for buying the premium edition.

 

hmm just read the russian equivalent of this post... no outcry at all. strange

They are glad they have 3 days a week to play the game that is still in alpha stage.

[adonys]

@NuttCase maybe for you the news video was sublime, but for me the limited early access has far more importance than that. not to mention I'm not finding it so good as you do (for example the dynamic light illumination of the fired rockets on IL2's fuselage is not great at all, but on contrary, it feels highly un-natural to me)

 

regarding the tue-thu limited test schedule's reasoning, I find it quite childish: if you imagine it will be 72h human monitoring, you're in a grave error. they will still follow their normal work schedule, which means there will be no one staying all nights long looking sheepeshly at the serve, which in turn means:

- they must have automatic data gathering working over the night, so, why not let it automatically gather over the weekend too? and if they won't have it in place, then they can still not gather data over the weekend, same as they are not gathering it over the night

- they must have automatic server crash restart code, otherwise if the server stops over the night, it won't be restarted until the next morning, so they can let this automatic server crash restart code work over the weekend too. and if they don't have it, then as we'll stare at the server over the night, we can still stare at the server over the weekend too

 

so, where's the logic in the limited early access?!!

 

not to mention that a normal betatesting cycle consists in user playing & bug reports peaks during the weekend, and developers working on fixes and additions during the week peaks, with a new weekend build uploaded on friday morning then resume the cycle..

Edited October 26, 2013 by adonys

[Pupo]

please, give us a realistic estimate of how long this 3 days limit will last: 1 week? 1 month? 2 months?

[adonys]

There're 30 ppl here who need to create the game while you're playing it. Not some arcade crap but a flight sim which is always harder to develop than to operate it.

Yet I fail to see how us playing in weekend would prevent those brave hard working people developing the hard to develop next genre flight sim doing their job. Maybe the team could take some time off to explain this to us, please?

 

If we could or planned to avoid time-limited early access, we'd be probably developing 4 more games and lived on Bahamas.

I don't understand this. You guys try to tell us you have not planned to avoid the limited early access?

 

You are getting your early access on November 12th + unlocks + La-5 and Fw 190 - that's (in wide strokes) what you've paid for buying the premium edition.

Actually, I beg to differ. We've all premium pre-ordered for early access, not (extremly) limited early access.

 

They are glad they have 3 days a week to play the game that is still in alpha stage.

Again I beg to differ, you guys should be glad we premium pre -ordered for a thing such as alpha access.

[rolikiraly]

Nice video! Keep it up !

[BFsSmurfy]

Some folks need to calm down a bit, I`m not pleased at the midweek only temporary limitation but it`s not the end of the world, I`ll be going out tonight looking at fanny, drinking myself to a stupor and wandering home happy, it`s called socialising where I come from, perhaps instead of ranting on the internet the whole weekend some might like to try it???

[FlatSpinMan]

Okay adonys, we get it.

 

You are not satisfied.

 

The devs are aware and have responded to your comments.

 

You wanted full, unrestricted early access. Me, too. But for a start it'll be limited. I was surprised a bit by that, but it is what it is. You can like it or hate it, but initially at least, that's what they can offer. There's nothing more to say - we're all aware of the situation now, thanks.

[Zak]

Yet I fail to see how us playing in weekend would prevent those brave hard working people developing the hard to develop next genre flight sim doing their job. Maybe the team could take some time off to explain this to us, please?

Even thou the game is stable, the devs need to be monitoring it's performance on founders' PCs.

 

I don't understand this. You guys try to tell us you have not planned to avoid the limited early access?

What I was tryiing to say is that if we were a big studio with separate developinng and operating divisions than we would probably not be limiting early accesss at all.

 

Actually, I beg to differ. We've all premium pre-ordered for early access, not (extremly) limited early access.

"(extremly) limited" - that's your opinion.

Mine is - extremely early version - thou you are getting it in your hands. At least 6 months prior to the launch. God, that's way too early, but you are Founders, you have the right for it.

 

Again I beg to differ, you guys should be glad we premium pre -ordered for a thing such as alpha access.

I never get tired saying my sincere thanks to everyone who has pre-ordered.

[[JG2]Fenderalac]

Too much cryage in this thread.

[Zak]

My greatest concern comes not from the early access restriction but from the fact that the developers are surprised by the community's reaction to it.

Nah, nothing surprising really.

Anyway that's the way we are able to do it. And we're doing it for you. (you do realise that early access is not to bring some fun to the devs, don't you?)

 

Well it sucks not be loved by each and everyone, but what can one possibly do here:)

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Nice video indeed. It was atmospheric to say the least. About the limited access, no problem. I did not expect a full blown experience from the start of EARLY access, but at least I get to try and feel the sim now, not after release So 12th of November..I am ready

[DD_Arthur]

Well it sucks not be loved by each and everyone, but what can one possibly do here:)

 

 I love you Zak!  and Furbs?  We'll he wants to have your children

[II./JG27_Rich]

Too much cryage in this thread.

+1

[adonys]

Even thou the game is stable, the devs need to be monitoring it's performance on founders' PCs.

Of course, and they will do this from monsday to friday. how would us playing on weekend without being directly supervised (but only through pogs) would prevent them

doing their job though?

[Pierre64]

Will "founders skinners" be authorized to open and work on the skins files during early access?

Edited October 26, 2013 by Pierre64

[Recon]

seriously confused - we are going to have limited capped early access ?   Odd.

 

I thought a founder for $89 meant we'd have access to the bits like a beta - I don't know any betas that cap your weekly play time ?

[Rama]

Will "founders skinners" be authorized to open and work on the skins files during early access?

If the directory and file structure is the same as for RoF, then probably skinners will be able to work and checking their skins in game.... but I'm only guessing there.

[Pierre64]

Thanks, Rama.

Any official confirmation from developpers, please?

[DD_Crash]

seriously confused - we are going to have limited capped early access ?   Odd.

 

I thought a founder for $89 meant we'd have access to the bits like a beta - I don't know any betas that cap your weekly play time ?

We are getting access to the Alpha, and as far as I am aware the cap is only for a couple of weeks.

[Matt]

If the directory and file structure is the same as for RoF, then probably skinners will be able to work and checking their skins in game.... but I'm only guessing there.

If there is no mods-on mode or any templates during the early access, then the same file structure doesn't help.

 

I'm also very curious about that, hence why i posted a similar in the questions topic.

[Pierre64]

If there is no mods-on mode or any templates during the early access, then the same file structure doesn't help.

Matt is right.

I don't forget skins files were crypted and not available to end users in the beginnings of Rise of Flight, IIRC.

 

...No news of the F-4 gift skin, by the way?

[Bearcat]

Pretty sure they said it wasnt going to be just those three days for the entire pre release period. God you guys are freaking out. This proves to me that no matter what you do. You cannot please anyone in this god forsaken entitlement community. Early access is early access. Deal with it.

Like old Abe said... kinda... You can please some of the people all of the time.. and all of the people some of the time.. but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

I think I have read enough of this thread .. kind of repetative.

 

However, what I take with me is

1) whatnot's post "If access limited to tue-thu period is a big deal for some people (me included) then it is a big deal! Don't belittle the topic like it's nothing."... very well put mate!  kind of ABC in conflict management

 

..and also,

2) the impression that the developers does not take it lightly at all or belittle it one bit! They are just trying to keep on the right track in order to deliver a high quality product in time. If that means that they have to restrict the early access in the beginning then so be it. It's not like they do it out of spite. I will not second guess their decisions, knowing that they know better how to run this project than I do

 

First I was a little taken aback by some of the extremely negative reactions here; threats even, but then again; maybe it would have been worse if there were no reactions at all; that would have meant that we don't care, and it's quite obvious that we do

Edited October 26, 2013 by F19_Klunk

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

 

Well it sucks not be loved by each and everyone, but what can one possibly do here:)

 

Its true i like Zak very much, he can pop round for a pot of tea and a vape any time he likes, though i wouldn't go as far as "love" at least not yet.

[Bearcat]

The bottom line is it is what it is.. It won't last throughout the entire duration of the early access and at some point before the official release we will have full unrestricted access. Perhaps this early limited access is the best way to insure that the most people will be in one spot at the same time so they can use the data they need and get it in the most accurate fashion possible rather than having a free for all where the information comes in in drips and drabs.

 

I can't speak for anyone else but for me even though it will be more challenging you can bet that I will juggle whatever I have to juggle to get in at least an hour or so a day with this even if I have to sacrifice some sleep for a few days out of the week and that not solely because "I paid for it" but because regardless I want this project to succed and I want to be able contribute input to that success in some way. Disappointment is understandable but many have stated your case several times in several ways so not to dismiss your feelings as irrelevant but to reiterate... we get it.... everybody gets it..... so not to disregard your concerns but move on. Continuing to express outrage will do nothing but stir the outrage and make you look fookish. We are all adults for the most part and we all have to deal with changes to plans, disappointments to expectations etc.. When the 14 year old on the forum acts more like an adult than many of the adults..... then alk I can say is hmmmmmmm It is a fact if life as we all know that stuff happens .., and I have no inside track but I am pretty certain that the devs have a plan and a time fame within which to address that plan and at this point the best thing we can do is get with it and make what adjustments we can where we can to work with the team to get them the information they need in as timely a fashion as possible so that the access can be opened up.

[Recon]

Looking forward to it.

 

The way I see it is that this isn't an early release of the game but a chance to participate in the Alpha/Beta testing. You can't expect Alpha access to be on the same terms a buying a finished game, this will be part of the development process and I'm sure that the finished game will be better for it.

 

Nothing on the front page talked about this - it said 'early access' - everyone knows early access means you get the bits before everyone else in order to play the game.   I know it's not 'finished' - early access means it's not finished, that is obviously clear.

 

This attempt to make people out to be ignorant of what a 'alpha' or 'beta' build is silly.   I've been involved in other early access programs and none of them attempted to limit when you can actually play this.

 

Next thing we'll be told is we will have to play during Russian timezone.  Sigh.  

 

What a marketing nightmare this product has become, the communication is horrid.  About the only thing I see out of people here is 'don't say anything that isn't good about the game or we will lock and ban you'.

[Zak]

If the directory and file structure is the same as for RoF, then probably skinners will be able to work and checking their skins in game.... but I'm only guessing there.

The structure will be different.

 

If there is no mods-on mode or any templates during the early access, then the same file structure doesn't help.

In the first sessions only several stock skins will be offered

 

1) whatnot's post "If access limited to tue-thu period is a big deal for some people (me included) then it is a big deal! Don't belittle the topic like it's nothing."... very well put mate!  kind of ABC in conflict management

Thanks for noticing. I'm not trying to belittle the issue, but I'm trying to help you realize that in given circumstances our methods are optimal.

Remember the R7 question? Instead of letting it drop - we brought it up, and community's voice decided the R7's fate. The difference this time is that we're not offering an alternative. Well there could me one, like, NOT having early access, but it's not even funny.

 

2) the impression that the developers does not take it lightly at all or belittle it one bit! They are just trying to keep on the right track in order to deliver a high quality product in time. If that means that they have to restrict the early access in the beginning then so be it. It's not like they do it out of spite. I will not second guess their decisions, knowing that they know better how to run this project than I do

Yes, there's a strict dev plan, and I personally have never seen before a plan that would be enforced so rigidly.

[Recon]

EDITED

 

DELETED INFLAMMATORY REMARKS

 

We know 'premium' edition to 'early access', meant we'd get the alpha/beta releases to play the game and provide feedback back to the developers.

[Freycinet]

My greatest concern comes not from the early access restriction but from the fact that the developers are surprised by the community's reaction to it.

 

If someone had told me a month ago that this was their plan I'd have told them that the community ain't gonna like it.

As soon as I read the statement in the dev diary it was obvious to me that the forum would become the place it is today with people flaming and threatening to cancel their pre-order.

 

If the developers are genuinely surprised then do they know their customer base well enough?

 

If the developers were expecting this reaction and went ahead anyway what does that tell us?

 

It tells you that they are a small developer that has a limited budget and wants to make the best sim possible within the options they have. I know that is not what you are insinuating, but I don't agree with you that the main goal of the developers is to antagonise the fan base...  :-) 

What a marketing nightmare this product has become, the communication is horrid.

 

[Rama]

About the only thing I see out of people here is 'don't say anything that isn't good about the game or we will lock and ban you'.

Then your vision is very blurred, you should change your glasses.

There are plenty of peoples expressing critics against the game that were not banned in threads that were not locked.

[csThor]

So much ado about so very nothing.

[Forager]

AKA_RECON, I have seen no threats of locks or banning and at least so far things have remained fairly calm.

 

I am on record in this thread as being extremely upset with the rollout plan so my addressing your comment cannot be construed as "fanboiism" and I am actually disappointed to see that divisive word surface.

 

It does seem, if one reads every post, that when moderators reply, they admonish protesters a bit more than they admonish those who have appointed themselves "Defenders Of The Faith".

 

I do not think "the communication is horrid" is a fair statement either.

It has certainly not been the "communication" many here, me included, wanted to read but both Zac and Jason have explained the company position.