Fw 190 Cockpit Revision

[JG4_Sputnik]

Sorry, but the center windscreen and quarter panels still look distorted to me. They've raised the gunsight and made the instruments readable, so good credit for that.

 

I need to find a drawing with the center windscreen dimensions. The one I have is unreadable.

That's a common problem I think. It's the same with the DCS FW190D. The more you zoom to the REVI, the more fish-eyed your view gets.

 

To the new cockpit though: How could the wrong pit even exist in the first place if they've been working on original blueprints? The changes are nice but I still don't get it. Anyway the changes are well done and I'm looking forward to finaly see my rpms now

Edited August 23, 2014 by JG4_Sputnik

[Matt]

It will always look distorted when you fly with widest FOV. Nothing can be done about that (except using a much steeper angle for the struts).

 

This change was totally unexpected. It looks almost perfect and i'm personally fine if it would stay like this. What the screenshot doesn't show is that the point of view should now be a good bit lower and the upper canopy struts shouldn't block the vision nearly as much as they currently do, so the vision should be much better in that regard than it is right now.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt

[Tektolnes]

Looks a lot better. So long as I can see the Revi & important instruments like the RPM gauge at the same time and have decent but not good forward visibility then I'm happy. That's pretty much what a RL pilot would have been faced with. Hopefully this revision will allow a line to be drawn under the whole affair.

[Gort]

Looks better yes, and the gunsight is better, but not what a pilot would see. And I have tried this in the sim with my pilot positioned realistically in the cockpit (TrackIR). That center windscreen would dominate his view, not the quarter panels. The center screen would be more of a rectangle with parallel vertical (almost) supports.

 

Take a rectangular object, like a closed laptop or clipboard and hold it at a sixty degree angle as if it is the windscreen in front of your face. The angles are different, and far less dramatic.

[chris455]

It will never be perfect.

777 team has shown more responsivenes to this uncannily sensitive issue than other developers acheived over a period of years, despite ceaseless appeals.

None of us as yet have flown the Wurger with the new 'pit. I say, let's have a go and see how it feels.

Bravo Zulu, 777.

Edited August 23, 2014 by chris455

[Finkeren]

It will never be perfect.

777 team has shown more responsivenes to this uncannily sensitive issue than other developers acheived over a period of years, despite ceaseless appeals.

None of us as yet have flown the Wurger with the new 'pit. I say, let's have a go and see how it feels.

Bravo Zulu, 777.

Hear hear!

[dburne]

 

None of us as yet have flown the Wurger with the new 'pit. I say, let's have a go and see how it feels.

Bravo Zulu, 777.

 

My main interest is how well it shoots down!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

A boy, alone on the internet..................

 

And all I can do is keep staring longingly at that Fw panel.

[sturmkraehe]

doesnt a lower mounted revi result in less forward down visibility? And therefor in less awareness on what you shoot when deflection shooting?

In reality this was improved by the refraction of the glass.

I dont know for real since i didnt try it out yet but this to me seems to be a big tradeoff just to see the lower gauges wich was easily possible withe snapviews or trackIR...

 

Just a thought

 

EDIT: Forward down visibility with the revicross still in sight..

 

 

Holds for ANY plane with armour windscreen.

 

Anyhow, this solution is so much better than what we had before. Now let's hope they manage to get the La5 cockpit right.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

doesnt a lower mounted revi result in less forward down visibility? And therefor in less awareness on what you shoot when deflection shooting?

In reality this was improved by the refraction of the glass.

I dont know for real since i didnt try it out yet but this to me seems to be a big tradeoff just to see the lower gauges wich was easily possible withe snapviews or trackIR...

 

Just a thought

 

EDIT: Forward down visibility with the revicross still in sight..

The Revi was only lowered a tad. More importantly the hood was RAISED quite a bit and the POV was improved.

[Matt]

Now let's hope they manage to get the La5 cockpit right.

If you mean "raising the gunsight", then they just did that.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt

[SeriousFox]

 

Love the new cockpit 

[sturmkraehe]

If you mean "raising the gunsight", then they just did that.

 

Yes, that's what I meant. I have to check again. Was probably a more subtle change then so I did not realize.

 

@SeriousFox: Thank's for the comparison. Shows clearly what has been done: The hood was lifted and so was that top cover above the instrument panel. Including the upper instrument panel. Looks much more convincing even though it is still a compromise (what might not be avoided anyway as long as we have to satisfy with the hardware limitations of today).

Edited August 24, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[SeriousFox]

Holds for ANY plane with armour windscreen.

 

Anyhow, this solution is so much better than what we had before. Now let's hope they manage to get the La5 cockpit right.

 

[Wulf]

OMG, I'm like ...  'pig in shit' now.      The revised cockpit is wonderful.  I'm sure there'll be things that could still be done but it's a giant leap forward from where we started from.  The 190 is a total beast now.  Just had a go online and it was brilliant.  The team have really delivered.    

[SeriousFox]

OMG, I'm like ...  'pig in shit' now.      The revised cockpit is wonderful.  I'm sure there'll be things that could still be done but it's a giant leap forward from where we started from.  The 190 is a total beast now.  Just had a go online and it was brilliant.  The team have really delivered.    

 

Yes Yes! But I think FW needs more boost on Engine power!!

[sturmkraehe]

@SeriousFox: OK, thank you. This comparison shows well that indeed the gunsight was lifted. Looks better now (now only 25% of gunsight circle obstructed instead of 40%) and gunsight closer to what I can see from historic pictures. Still not satisfying view but surely an improvement. Cannot be bettered I guess without lifting the hood. I'll test it tomorrow I think.

Edited August 24, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[JG4_Sputnik]

 

Love the new cockpit 

And you can clearly see that they made the leather rim more smooth around the edges.

I guess the pit has been released way too early with a lot of space to improove. I hope that they didn't just because of our "whining" but rather because of what their own blueprint data provided.

Because if not I still wonder how it could've been so far appart from the real thing at the beginning.

But now it really looks good

Edited August 24, 2014 by JG4_Sputnik

[Gort]

Some of the differing opinions might be from our using different monitor resolutions too- different screen ratios and the interaction with pilot viewpoints/zoom levels make a difference. Suppositions from previous sim experience influence what you expect to see. Some think it is awesome, others say it's good enough, but not representative of reality.

 

Does anyone have a source to the cockpit windscreen "blueprints" or know how they are used to develop a cockpit view? I'd like to do a simple mockup.

 

I get the sense that pictures are taken in museums, and the modeling is based on that. Someday, laser scanning will be employed as it is for cars and tracks on sims like iRacing. Difficult to get a museum to agree to it however.

 

Doing something like the HE111 cockpit has to be a massive task.

[WWChunk]

This update to the Würger cockpit is fantastic. I flew a bunch last night and it's literally a completely different experience. Well done guys.

[ARM505]

Perfect is the enemy of good enough - whether this matches real blueprints or not, THIS is an FW190 cockpit that feels like an FW190 cockpit, and we can see it looks like the videos and pictures we see online, and we have useable visibility. So, at least to me, I fly it without obvious errors jumping out at me which is all one needs. It's that 'suspension of disbelief' thing again.

 

So I'd just like to add my vote to the 'nailed it!' side of things - great job, well done. :D

[Gort]

Perfect is the enemy of good enough - whether this matches real blueprints or not, THIS is an FW190 cockpit that feels like an FW190 cockpit, and we can see it looks like the videos and pictures we see online, and we have useable visibility. So, at least to me, I fly it without obvious errors jumping out at me which is all one needs. It's that 'suspension of disbelief' thing again.

 

So I'd just like to add my vote to the 'nailed it!' side of things - great job, well done. :D

I agree with that sentiment, but still hate the geometry and look of the center windscreen. It's claustrophobic to me. I think if you all could experience what it actually looks like, you, would enjoy the result. That said, I'm not sure it is possible, but if BoS pulled it off and applied it to all their cockpits, the sim would be superior to anything else out there by a wide margin.

 

You should also understand that I haven't flown the update yet as I am shackled to real flying for a few days to help pay the bills. Looking forward to giving it a whirl when I get back.

[IIN8II]

haven't had time to check it out for myself, but based on the photos it looks like quite an improvement. 

[Gort]

What would really be cool is an attempt to replicate what the human stereoscopic vision does in RL. Using track IR or a mouse view, if the center of your view was out of the cockpit, then the canopy frames would be fuzzy and semi-transparent. They would still obstruct vision, but wouldn't be an in focus solid object like they are today. Look at the instrument panel and anything at that focal distance would be opaque.

 

Never gonna happen, but it does show the limitations of a flat screen vs the way the human eyesight works. It's why perfectly sized canopy frames look far more obstructive than they do in reality.

[PantsPilot]

Great improvement as far as I'm concerned.

[Trident_109]

What would really be cool is an attempt to replicate what the human stereoscopic vision does in RL. Using track IR or a mouse view, if the center of your view was out of the cockpit, then the canopy frames would be fuzzy and semi-transparent. They would still obstruct vision, but wouldn't be an in focus solid object like they are today. Look at the instrument panel and anything at that focal distance would be opaque.

 

Never gonna happen, but it does show the limitations of a flat screen vs the way the human eyesight works. It's why perfectly sized canopy frames look far more obstructive than they do in reality.

That's one of the reasons I'm not hyper critical when it comes to exacting measurements. Anything created can be within drawing spec accuracy and still not replicate what the actual pilot's experience/view would be. Not knocking any developer because it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't," but I'd rather a sim accurately represent the experience/view of the pilot than to have 100% accurate models. How do you do that with today's technology? IDK. I'd think blurring of the canopy structure would look strange, though I get the idea. Maybe in a 3D environment with something like Oculus Rift would make that a possibility without it looking strange.

 

That said, I think the revisions of the FW pit looks great and it is undeniably more functional than the previous iteration. Heck, I love flying the butcher bird now. Thanks 777. Well done. even when revisions were made last week you still managed to tweak and rebuild this cockpit, when you could have left it alone until after BoS's release - if at all.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Robert

[sport02]

logically you must have to  a 3d cockpit view  change with the front glass of the 109 like 190

Edited August 30, 2014 by sport02

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 If the screenshots SeriousFox posted are taken from exactly same position before and after revision, one can easily spot that again a small illusion was made without touching the main culprit: windscreen. It's dimensions are the same and so is thickness of the framing. Pilot is sitting lower in the second pic making it look that the bar is thinner while it is not. You also see more of the pedals in the AFTER pic. If they really want to fix that cockpit it would need a complete re-modelling, not these illusions. Sure has somewhat improved the visibility of the lower gauges and such, but the windscreen is still porked. Better than nothing I guess, but won't buy that for a dollar

[KoN_]

There are FW190 flying today . Go to the USA chino airshow and you have most at your fingertips.

[SeriousFox]

S!

 

 If the screenshots SeriousFox posted are taken from exactly same position before and after revision, one can easily spot that again a small illusion was made without touching the main culprit: windscreen. It's dimensions are the same and so is thickness of the framing. Pilot is sitting lower in the second pic making it look that the bar is thinner while it is not. You also see more of the pedals in the AFTER pic. If they really want to fix that cockpit it would need a complete re-modelling, not these illusions. Sure has somewhat improved the visibility of the lower gauges and such, but the windscreen is still porked. Better than nothing I guess, but won't buy that for a dollar

 

I can assure that it was same position(default view)

[JtD]

The cockpit was substantially changed. For instance, the massive frame between windshields and sliding canopy parts was reduced in size, the upper part of the dashboard raised, the lower one lowered and moved inwards towards the pilot, the leather made smoother and narrower plus a lot of changes in details. While refraction isn't modelled, the overall impression of the pit including the view out front and at the instruments is a whole lot closer to the real thing than it was before. It is a huge improvement.

[Mick]

I don't know if this video has already been posted ... but it solves the mystery of the infamous bar ... (posted by Ala13_ManOWar at SAS)

 

 

 

 

And here is the view we have aboard the only real FW190 A5 flying in the world, the Flying Heritage one:

 

 

[Rama]

I don't know if this video has already been posted .

 

Multiple times allready in various sub-forums here....

This forum has a search fonction. It can be used if you're not sure something has been posted or not.

[Mick]

... OK, sorry Rama, don't hesitate to delete my post if need be ...

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I still stand my ground. The Fw190 cockpit would need a bigger overhaul than just moving some tidbits here and there. The original issue is still untouched: frontal view.

[Finkeren]

S!

 

 I still stand my ground. The Fw190 cockpit would need a bigger overhaul than just moving some tidbits here and there. The original issue is still untouched: frontal view.

 

You are right, if it really was to be done justice, the cockpit would need an overhaul and the DN engine would need to model refraction.

 

But can we at least agree, that the FW 190 pit is now funtional and passable? I think it is. There are no glaring faults that ruin the experience anymore.

 

The cockpits have never been the primary focus of BoS. They don't need to be perfect. They just need to be "good enough". And I think all cockpits do that job well enough with the He 111 interior standing out by being really, really awesome.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Finkeren

[Uriah]

I agree with LLv34_Flanker.

 

But I suspect part of the issue is getting a true picture from a real cockpit.  In the vid above it looks like the camera on the pilot must have been on his forehead or higher.  Then there is the issue of how a camera lense 'sees' things differently than the perspective of the human eye from the same position in space.  It might be easier for an artist to draw or paint a picture.