Top ace killer

[Furio]

I like this thread and the way it went along so far.

Numbers from WWII must be taken with suspicion, but they could be useful basis for some thoughts. Without much comment, these are mine.

 

A number that I find very elusive is the ratio between planes downed in air-to air combat and lost for other causes (flak, bad weather, navigation or pilot’s error, landing accident, engine failure, fuel exhaustion, etc.). Surely flak took a heavy toll. Weather, navigation and fuel related accidents were numerous, due to the primitive nav aids of the times, often-bad maintenance and the risks crews routinely accepted in wartime. On top of this, there’s the number of aircrafts destroyed on the ground, returned to base but damaged beyond repair, retired as war weary, replaced as obsolete or abandoned during retreat.

My guess being as good as any other, I think that for each plane downed in air combat, at least two more were lost for other causes.

If I’m anywhere near the truth, it’s really difficult to believe that Luftwaffe pilots downed over 70,000 allied planes, as this would mean over 200,000 planes lost for all causes, not counting, Japan and other Axis countries contribution. Simply, allied would have lost the war.

 

That said, surely Luftwaffe aces were excellent snipers. And demonstrated conclusively that snipers alone, even the best, don’t win wars.

 

Talking about plane types and aces, many surprising numbers can be found. Anyone knows the success of Buffaloes in Finnish hands, and the beating they took from Japanese. But more interesting is perhaps a comparison between Fulmars and Seafires. It’s easy to tell which one had better performances and armament, but Seafires suffered an impressive amount of deck-landing accidents, while the Fulmar had an excellent record on the deck. Furthermore, there are no aces among Seafire pilots, while there are several flying the poor old Fulmar.

[Finkeren]

I like this thread and the way it went along so far.

Numbers from WWII must be taken with suspicion, but they could be useful basis for some thoughts. Without much comment, these are mine.

 

A number that I find very elusive is the ratio between planes downed in air-to air combat and lost for other causes (flak, bad weather, navigation or pilot’s error, landing accident, engine failure, fuel exhaustion, etc.). Surely flak took a heavy toll. Weather, navigation and fuel related accidents were numerous, due to the primitive nav aids of the times, often-bad maintenance and the risks crews routinely accepted in wartime. On top of this, there’s the number of aircrafts destroyed on the ground, returned to base but damaged beyond repair, retired as war weary, replaced as obsolete or abandoned during retreat.

My guess being as good as any other, I think that for each plane downed in air combat, at least two more were lost for other causes.

If I’m anywhere near the truth, it’s really difficult to believe that Luftwaffe pilots downed over 70,000 allied planes, as this would mean over 200,000 planes lost for all causes, not counting, Japan and other Axis countries contribution. Simply, allied would have lost the war.

 

That said, surely Luftwaffe aces were excellent snipers. And demonstrated conclusively that snipers alone, even the best, don’t win wars.

 I agree with your last point, and you're propably not entirely mistaken in your assesment of roughly 2 aircraft lost or written off to every 1 shot down in combat (though I think the ratio varied greatly with the season and intensity of battle). Also don't assume that flak took such a huge toll, it depended a lot on the situation, for eksample it took on average 80,000 88mm shells to bring down 1 bomber during the USAAF daylight bombing campaign 1942 - 45.

 

However, I think you're wrong in assuming, that the Luftwaffe kill records are inflated simply because it would have cost the Allies 200.000+ planes.

 

Take a look at the number of military aircraft production during the war:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production (BTW: Don't always trust Wikipedia. If you have some better numbers, I'll gladly examine them instead)

 

Just the 4 greatest Allied producers (USA, USSR, UK and Canada) built a total of nearly 610,000 planes during the war. This number does not include the thousands of aircraft committed by France and other Allied countries and doesn't include the tens of thousands of pre-war aircraft used by the Allies (USSR alone had more than 40,000 combat aircraft at the start of Operation Barbarossa, of which a large portion were lost in the opening weeks of the war in 1941) 

 

A very rough estimate would suggest, that the Luftwaffe propably faced something like 400,000 - 500,000 planes of all types througout the war (allowing for several hundred thousands to be allocated to fight the Japanese and Italians, so even if your calculation holds up, it would have sapped at most 50% of the total production, which is a horrendous loss rate, but not entirely unbelievable given 6 years of intense aerial warfare and completely surviveable.

 

Now, did overclaiming occur in the Luftwaffe? I'll say it's pretty much unquestionable, that there were significant overclaiming, as there was in any air force at the time, but there is no reason to believe, that the Luftwaffe was worse in this regard. Also, there are definately examples of the opposite occuring. During Barbarossa some Luftwaffe units actually under-claimed, when you compare with the VVS' own data of loss rates. And ofc, there is the occasional kill that never gets confirmed due to either the confirmation process or it simply not getting claimed (maybe the aircraft didn't appear to be going down, when the pilot lost track of it, or maybe the claimant got killed later in that mission)

 

In any case, the figure of 70,000 kills is propably a little too high, but not by much, and it's definately not a ridiculous number considering the odds Luftwaffe pilots fought against.

[Furio]

Just the 4 greatest Allied producers (USA, USSR, UK and Canada) built a total of nearly 610,000 planes during the war. This number does not include the thousands of aircraft committed by France and other Allied countries and doesn't include the tens of thousands of pre-war aircraft used by the Allies (USSR alone had more than 40,000 combat aircraft at the start of Operation Barbarossa, of which a large portion were lost in the opening weeks of the war in 1941) 

 

A very rough estimate would suggest, that the Luftwaffe propably faced something like 400,000 - 500,000 planes of all types througout the war (allowing for several hundred thousands to be allocated to fight the Japanese and Italians, so even if your calculation holds up, it would have sapped at most 50% of the total production, which is a horrendous loss rate, but not entirely unbelievable given 6 years of intense aerial warfare and completely surviveable.

 

Now, did overclaiming occur in the Luftwaffe? I'll say it's pretty much unquestionable, that there were significant overclaiming, as there was in any air force at the time, but there is no reason to believe, that the Luftwaffe was worse in this regard. Also, there are definately examples of the opposite occuring. During Barbarossa some Luftwaffe units actually under-claimed, when you compare with the VVS' own data of loss rates. And ofc, there is the occasional kill that never gets confirmed due to either the confirmation process or it simply not getting claimed (maybe the aircraft didn't appear to be going down, when the pilot lost track of it, or maybe the claimant got killed later in that mission)

 

In any case, the figure of 70,000 kills is propably a little too high, but not by much, and it's definately not a ridiculous number considering the odds Luftwaffe pilots fought against.

 

I’m not saying that over claiming was a specialty of the Luftwaffe. As far as I know, nobody beats USAAF B17 and B24 gunners blindly firing to fast passing 109 and 190.

What I think is that some serious number crunching would be definitely needed, and that another big figure must be considered: how many of the aircrafts built actually reached front line units? And how many really went in combat? Looking at some examples, the number could be unbelievably small.

 

I recently read a book on the Albacore, an obsolete torpedo bomber that obtained significant results against Axis ships. 800 were built. At the peak of their fighting career, there were perhaps 40 in first line service, scattered between Malta and Western Desert. How many were downed by enemy fighters? 50? Hardly more. That’s 6% of the number built.

 

If that’s not enough, we should also consider aircrafts that were never meant to go in combat. Perhaps 10% of Russian aircrafts built were Polikarpov U2/Po2. US industries built around 50.000 trainers, roughly 15% of the total production figure, and as many support aircrafts, most of which never got in combat. Conclusion: I feel that the claim/kill topic should be reviewed, but as this is definitely going off-topic, I leave to you, as the thread starter, the last word. And thank you for having started it: it’s very interesting.

[Ice_Eagle]

Well the P-51 didn't win the air war in Europe, the B-17 did. The P-51 allowed the B-17 to contains its losses to about 10%, and to allow more -17's to reach there targets.

[Rjel]

I don't think any one aircraft could be pointed to and say it was the most important to winning the air war over Europe. The heavy bombers of the USAAF couldn't survive without escort over Germany. In 1943 they probably couldn't have survived without the medium bombers flying missions in support of the heavy bombers. Nor could they have survived without the RAF flying as they did. If any one type of A/C "won" the war, I would put it on the trainers turned out by the thousands during the was years. Without those, none of the Allied air forces could have turned out the needed aircrew to fight, when only short months before most had never even flown.

[gavagai]

Well the P-51 didn't win the air war in Europe, the B-17 did. The P-51 allowed the B-17 to contains its losses to about 10%, and to allow more -17's to reach there targets.

 

German aircraft production peaked in 1944, right underneath the B-17s and B-24s.  Many factories were simply moved underground.

Edited August 13, 2013 by gavagai

[Sven]

Massive effort was also put into rebuilding German factories, especially the synthetic oil and petrol plants. Within a couple of weeks the factories were already running.

The Luftwaffe's main problem was having so many aircraft and aircrew tied up to the defense of the Reich to protect it's civilian populace that they were short on pilots on fronts which were more important to prolong the war. The me262 could've relieved the Luftwaffe to renew efforts to counter both Russian forces and the forces in the West.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Sven

[Ice_Eagle]

Most of this downward plunge in total production resulted from the damage done to the hydrogenation plants. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June, 1944 and to 17,000 tons in September, but rose to 72,000 tons in November, only to be reduced to 7,000 tons in March, 1945. The Fischer-Tropsch plants, too, were almost completely knocked out of production. Their output, which had been averaging 43,000 tons per month, fell to 27,000 tons in June, 7,000 tons in December, and 4,000 tons in March, 1945. Thus, in ten months, the synthetic oil industry, on which Germany had lavished 17 years of hard work and vast amounts of material, was rendered virtually useless. So again, a serious lack of aviation fuel.

[AX2]

Most of this downward plunge in total production resulted from the damage done to the hydrogenation plants. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June, 1944 and to 17,000 tons in September, but rose to 72,000 tons in November, only to be reduced to 7,000 tons in March, 1945. The Fischer-Tropsch plants, too, were almost completely knocked out of production. Their output, which had been averaging 43,000 tons per month, fell to 27,000 tons in June, 7,000 tons in December, and 4,000 tons in March, 1945. Thus, in ten months, the synthetic oil industry, on which Germany had lavished 17 years of hard work and vast amounts of material, was rendered virtually useless. So again, a serious lack of aviation fuel.

Interesting.... 

But you should change your avatar .

 

 

Does the snake tempted Eve rather than Adam with the apple....... ?    

Edited August 14, 2013 by Mustang

[Finkeren]

I’m not saying that over claiming was a specialty of the Luftwaffe. As far as I know, nobody beats USAAF B17 and B24 gunners blindly firing to fast passing 109 and 190.

What I think is that some serious number crunching would be definitely needed, and that another big figure must be considered: how many of the aircrafts built actually reached front line units? And how many really went in combat? Looking at some examples, the number could be unbelievably small.

 

I recently read a book on the Albacore, an obsolete torpedo bomber that obtained significant results against Axis ships. 800 were built. At the peak of their fighting career, there were perhaps 40 in first line service, scattered between Malta and Western Desert. How many were downed by enemy fighters? 50? Hardly more. That’s 6% of the number built.

 

If that’s not enough, we should also consider aircrafts that were never meant to go in combat. Perhaps 10% of Russian aircrafts built were Polikarpov U2/Po2. US industries built around 50.000 trainers, roughly 15% of the total production figure, and as many support aircrafts, most of which never got in combat. Conclusion: I feel that the claim/kill topic should be reviewed, but as this is definitely going off-topic, I leave to you, as the thread starter, the last word. And thank you for having started it: it’s very interesting.

 

I agree with you, that there is often a tendency for people to over-estimate the number of aircraft actually engaging in combat, and of course data like claim numbers should always be subject to review. However, I also think (without much data to back it up) that the actual kills that never got claimed or confirmed somewhat (though not completely) make up for the inherent over-claiming present in every air force.

 

About the Po-2: A lot of those aircraft actually went into combat, and a great many of them were lost, despite being surprisingly hard to shoot down. During the first 2 years of the Great Patriotic war, just about every type of aircraft in the VVS were pressed into combat roles or made to fly in combat zones. Late in the war the roles were more or less reversed with just about any type of aircraft in German service falling prey to fighter sweeps and lonely intruders.

 

That being said, there can be no question, that most aircraft produced didn't go into combat (just like most soldiers in a war never fire a gun in anger). But then again: If we examine the numbers I proposed before (Which are open for challence, as they are largely based on assumptions) we see that even if just a third of the Allied aircraft actually went into combat, it's still not unfeasable for the Luftwaffe to have brought down 70,000 of them during the six years of the war. In fact it pretty much keeps the beforementioned loss rate of around 50%. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Overclaiming happened on all sides. RAF's kill claims were far and beyond the numbers of active planes Luftwaffe had during the "leaning to France", but they were accepted as to keep the morale up of the people etc. There have been studies and it seems for example that the night fighters had quite accurate claims by Luftwaffe. USAAF bomber gunner crews' claims were just ridiculous, but again morale was kept higher with them accepted. We will never know the exact numbers but still the most successfull airforce was Luftwaffe in light of kills recorded and with aces that had over 100 kills, even 50. Allied pilots never came even close to those numbers. US had P38 aces (Bong/MacGuire) with 40 (or near) kills, Russians one with 64 kills etc. The discussion will never end and new studies sure add to it more data as archives open etc. 

 

For me more interesting "data" is how the pilots lived and how they felt during those years in the war. After all youngsters in their machines. The cultural differences can be seen in the memoirs but one thing is the same for all pilots regardless side: passion to fly.

[FuriousMeow]

LW had aces with over 100 kills because they flew the entire war and were also shot down during their time, but could go right back up because they were over their own territory. US pilots flew a tour for the most part, and then went home but if they were shot down they most likely ended up as POWs. Same with the RAF, shot down over Germany and it's POW time.

 

It's really apples to potatoes comparing LW pilots tallys vs other airforces except possibly the VVS.

Edited August 15, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 As said, numbers are numbers. More interesting are the stories behind these young men flying and fighting  

[Sven]

Luftwaffe flew a lot over enemy terretory (BOF, BOB, MED you name it) A lot of high score german aces flew on the Eastern front, hunting for VVS planes over USSR ground because they didn't actively fly over German territory until '43.

[6S.Manu]

Luftwaffe flew a lot over enemy terretory (BOF, BOB, MED you name it) A lot of high score german aces flew on the Eastern front, hunting for VVS planes over USSR ground because they didn't actively fly over German territory until '43.

 

Yep,

 

Usually US pilots would be rescued or hidden by the oppressed peasants. The same can't be said for the oppressors.

[Rjel]

Yep,

 

Usually US pilots would be rescued or hidden by the oppressed peasants. The same can't be said for the oppressors.

 Usually? Hardly. By far and away, the vast majority of downed Allied aircrew didn't come back til after the war's end.

[6S.Manu]

 Usually? Hardly. By far and away, the vast majority of downed Allied aircrew didn't come back til after the war's end.

 

It depends on the location they bailed out / crashed: many bomber crews probably landed in Germany during bombing raid and so were clearly POWs, but for every allied fighter pilot crashed over occupied terroritory (think also Italy as one too, since many peasants were against fascism) there was a race between the Germans and the partisans. The same partisans would have killed those Luftwaffe pilots landed in their territory.

http://storiedimenticate.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/6-marzo-1945-ghemme-no-fucilati-10-partigiani-dai-nazifascisti/

Edited August 15, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Furio]

It’s difficult to argue with numbers. Let us say that all the combatants had the same inclination for over claiming. It’s an entirely and easily understandable habit. When you have the feeling that an enemy plane is going down, well… you’ll report that it went down. Good faith and sincerity are not in discussion here. Just numbers.

 

Let’s try to apply the same criterion for everyone. For the sake of discussion, I’ll make the assumption that average over claiming was 30% (my personal opinion is that it was much higher). Also, I’ll use names of fantasy.

 

Italian Ace Mario Rossi claimed 6 kills. Possible over claims are just 2.

American ace John Doe claimed 30 kills. Possible over claims are 10.

Soviet ace Ivan Ivanov claimed 60 kills. Possible over claims are 20.

German ace Fritz Braun claimed 300 kills. Possible over claims are 100.

 

To balance just Fritz Braun’s over claiming, Regia Aeronautica would need to list 50 aces like Mario Rossi, USAAF 10 aces Like John Doe, and VVS 5 aces like Ivan Ivanov. A cross check is relatively easy from here.

 

 

 

Returning on topic: the best way to pile up kills is to perform free hunt, ambush unwary enemy planes and accept combat only under favourable conditions. These circumstances were more common on Eastern front. The best way to be killed is to be forced to combat under any condition, even when outnumbered. These circumstances were more common over Germany during Allied bombing offensive. Which enemy plane was encountered the most by German aces over Germany? The P51, of course.

My opinion is that Finkeren’s numbers are spot on.

[AX2]

P51 a change in tactics :

 

General James Doolittle told the fighters in early 1944 to stop flying in formation with the bombers and instead attack the Luftwaffe wherever it could be found. The Mustang groups were sent in well before the bombers in a "fighter sweep" as a form of air supremacy action, intercepting German fighters while they were forming up. As a result the Luftwaffe lost 17% of its fighter pilots in just over a week, and the Allies were able to establish air superiority....

 

The Luftwaffe's answer was the Gefechtsverband (battle formation). It consisted of aSturmgruppe of heavily armed and armored Fw 190As escorted by two Begleitgruppen of light fighters, often Bf 109Gs, whose task was to keep the Mustangs away from theSturmböcke Fw 190As attacking the bombers. This scheme was excellent in theory but difficult to apply in practice as the large German formation took a long time to assemble and was difficult to maneuver. It was often intercepted by the escorting P-51s using the newer "fighter sweep" tactics out ahead of the heavy bomber formations, breaking up theGefechtsverband formations before reaching the bombers...

 

While not always able to avoid contact with the escorts, the threat of mass attacks and later the "company front" (eight abreast) assaults by armored Sturmgruppe Fw 190s brought an urgency to attacking the Luftwaffe wherever it could be found. Beginning in late February 1944, 8th Air Force fighter units began systematic strafing attacks on German airfields with increasing frequency and intensity throughout the spring with the objective of gaining air supremacy over the Normandy battlefield. In general these were conducted by units returning from escort missions but, beginning in March, many groups also were assigned airfield attacks instead of bomber support.

 

 

 

The P 51 had a great punch.... over claiming 10% for me no more.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6AIpU3mbS4

Edited August 16, 2013 by Mustang

[Sokol1]

If that’s not enough, we should also consider aircrafts that were never meant to go in combat. Perhaps 10% of Russian aircrafts built were Polikarpov U2/Po2.

???

 

Nähmaschine, Bedcheck Charlie (Korea war)...

 

Anna Timofeeva-Egorova (il-2 pilot) are shot down more than one time flying recon/liaison missions just in one these "useless" trainers.

 

Sokol1

[Ice_Eagle]

Ahhh yes February 1944. B-17 formations numbering 1000+ and P-51 escorts numbering 500-800+

 

The Luftwaffe never stood a chance. But the allies never achieved complete air superiority, as some local German airfields maintained control right to the end.

[Finkeren]

The P 51 had a great punch.... over claiming 10% for me no more.

 

It's a bit funny you say that when talking about Big Week, where USAAF alone claimed more than 500 kills, when in reality the Luftwaffe lost around 350 fighters to all causes (including fighters lost to the British at night), that's overclaiming by more than 50%.

 

That's not to belittle the P-51s qualities, but it simply goes to show, that overclaiming happens on a massive scale, especially when the fighting takes place above enemy territory.

[Finkeren]

I would love to have the opportunity at some point, either as an option in the sim or through a mod, to set up a big fight with large numbers of planes in an online mission, with full real settings (no visual aids of any kind) and no text or audible confirmation of kills or damage to enemy planes what so ever. No text messages confirming a kill, no AI squad mates confirming via radio (though human squad mates are allowed to) and no access to the other teams chat or TS to get clues from.

 

Players in this mission should be instructed to fly and fight as realistically as posible. Trying to maintain some kind of unit cohesion and prioritize their own survival above anything else, trying to break away from combat if damaged, wounded or at a severe disadvantage. The flight leader of each team should be instructed to order his squad to disengage if a significant number of casualties has been sustained, or if the enemy is retreating, to simulate a real air battle (squads didn't regularly get wiped out in a single mission, even on the Eastern Front)

 

After the mission, it would be the job of the surviving players of each team to sort out the kills and determine who should get credit for what kills, including plane type and approximate location of the wreck. I think it would be quite interesting to compare the claims with the track recordings. My guess is, that even though we as virtual pilots are not under the same levels of stress and confusion as real life pilots in a combat situation, we would see significant over-claiming, with multiple pilots taking credit for the same kill and many instances of damaged planes being registrated as shot down. It'll also be interesting to see, how good players would be at correctly identifying their victims, though in BoS it would be fairly simple given the low number of different aircraft and flight simmers overall familiarity with the looks of different WW2 aircraft (though I expect a significant amount of confusion between different types of the same line of aircraft).

[BraveSirRobin]

I would love to have the opportunity at some point, either as an option in the sim or through a mod, to set up a big fight with large numbers of planes in an online mission, with full real settings (no visual aids of any kind) and no text or audible confirmation of kills or damage to enemy planes what so ever. No text messages confirming a kill, no AI squad mates confirming via radio (though human squad mates are allowed to) and no access to the other teams chat or TS to get clues from.

 

Players in this mission should be instructed to fly and fight as realistically as posible. Trying to maintain some kind of unit cohesion and prioritize their own survival above anything else, trying to break away from combat if damaged, wounded or at a severe disadvantage. The flight leader of each team should be instructed to order his squad to disengage if a significant number of casualties has been sustained, or if the enemy is retreating, to simulate a real air battle (squads didn't regularly get wiped out in a single mission, even on the Eastern Front)

 

After the mission, it would be the job of the surviving players of each team to sort out the kills and determine who should get credit for what kills, including plane type and approximate location of the wreck. I think it would be quite interesting to compare the claims with the track recordings. My guess is, that even though we as virtual pilots are not under the same levels of stress and confusion as real life pilots in a combat situation, we would see significant over-claiming, with multiple pilots taking credit for the same kill and many instances of damaged planes being registrated as shot down. It'll also be interesting to see, how good players would be at correctly identifying their victims, though in BoS it would be fairly simple given the low number of different aircraft and flight simmers overall familiarity with the looks of different WW2 aircraft (though I expect a significant amount of confusion between different types of the same line of aircraft).

 

That would be a very interesting experiment.  Although, I think you'd have to test out a bunch of fights (100+) to get meaningful numbers.

[Finkeren]

That would be a very interesting experiment. Although, I think you'd have to test out a bunch of fights (100+) to get meaningful numbers.

Sure, though I'm not looking for real representative statistics, the experiment would have to be repeated.

 

I'm pretty sure over-claiming would be lower than it was historically, because we as players are under much less stress, have over all better situational awareness, know the planes better and, most importantly, know the sim and what to look for on a damaged plane to know wether it's going down or not.

 

Still I would bet on over-claiming exceeding 20%

[BraveSirRobin]

We have less stress but we also have very little peripheral vision.  In RoF I often hear someone say "I got him smoking" when I know he was smoking before they took their first shot.  

[Finkeren]

As far as vision goes, I think it more or less balances out against the lower stress level and lack of combat related "tunnel vision".

 

I still think that an experienced flight simmer with TrackIR can maintain a higher situational awareness in a sim on full real than a real WW2 pilot could in combat.

[BraveSirRobin]

Not sure I agree with that.  I think my SA would improve dramatically if we could simulate 360 view that real pilots have.  Not sure that combat stress would completely negate that improvement.  One huge advantage we have is experience.  There were probably very few real WW1 or WW2 pilots with as much combat experience as many sim pilots.  

[Furio]

Sure, though I'm not looking for real representative statistics, the experiment would have to be repeated.

 

I'm pretty sure over-claiming would be lower than it was historically, because we as players are under much less stress, have over all better situational awareness, know the planes better and, most importantly, know the sim and what to look for on a damaged plane to know wether it's going down or not.

 

Still I would bet on over-claiming exceeding 20%

 

I think that visibility would play a major role, clouds offering effective hiding places and making difficult to follow a descending plane to the ground.

I agree with you. Probably simmers would over claim less than real life pilots, not only because of less stress, but you could expect a “scientific” approach by people involved in such experiment.

In any case, it’s a great idea.

[Finkeren]

When conducting this experiment, we should also keep in mind, that flight simmers often have many, many more hours of "combat training" in the sim, than real world military pilots could ever dream of. Therefore simmers tend to be far more "deadly" than their real world counterparts, being extremely good marksmen, great at deflection shooting and knowing exactly what amount of damage it usually takes to bring down an aircraft. Also we don't have to deal with the psychological aspects of actually having to pull the trigger on another human being (Here in Denmark we've had a sort of "gang war" over the last few years with multiple shootings but a very low body count. Even the toughest gansters somehow seem to miss even the easiest shot, when it really counts)

 

All these things, I think, would conspire to make the casualties in the experiment higher, than would be the case in real life, regardless of how realistic (hard) the sim is and regardless of how "realistic" and self-preserving the participants behave. This would propably also reduce over-claiming, since a lot more of the planes that seem to go down, actually do.

[6S.Manu]

When conducting this experiment, we should also keep in mind, that flight simmers often have many, many more hours of "combat training" in the sim, than real world military pilots could ever dream of. Therefore simmers tend to be far more "deadly" than their real world counterparts, being extremely good marksmen, great at deflection shooting and knowing exactly what amount of damage it usually takes to bring down an aircraft. Also we don't have to deal with the psychological aspects of actually having to pull the trigger on another human being (Here in Denmark we've had a sort of "gang war" over the last few years with multiple shootings but a very low body count. Even the toughest gansters somehow seem to miss even the easiest shot, when it really counts)

 

All these things, I think, would conspire to make the casualties in the experiment higher, than would be the case in real life, regardless of how realistic (hard) the sim is and regardless of how "realistic" and self-preserving the participants behave. This would propably also reduce over-claiming, since a lot more of the planes that seem to go down, actually do.

 

The opposite it's also true: IRL ambush was the usual way to been killed, when virtual pilots have to much SA because of the sim's limits.

We learned by experience to watch our six every X seconds, the real pilot could not since learning through mistakes wasn't allowed.

Edited August 17, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Rjel]

The opposite it's also true: IRL ambush was the usual way to been killed, when virtual pilots have to much SA because of the sim's limits.

We learned by experience to watch our six every X seconds, the real pilot could not since learning through mistakes wasn't allowed.

 

That's where taking veteran combat pilots and bringing them home to train upcoming pilots paid big dividends to the Allies in WWII. Far better to have thousands of well trained and competent pilots exposed to the experience of those same veterans as opposed to losing that asset by continued combat.  

[ImPeRaToR]

Massive effort was also put into rebuilding German factories, especially the synthetic oil and petrol plants. Within a couple of weeks the factories were already running.

The Luftwaffe's main problem was having so many aircraft and aircrew tied up to the defense of the Reich to protect it's civilian populace that they were short on pilots on fronts which were more important to prolong the war. The me262 could've relieved the Luftwaffe to renew efforts to counter both Russian forces and the forces in the West.

 

Pretty much this, more and more Jagdgruppen were transfered to the west and south to help stem the tied, eventually single jagdstaffeln were to cover an area that was covered by one or more Jagdgruppen in 41, pretty much having no impact at all. Ground-attack units equipped with Fw190s had to escort themselves or even sister units equipped with Ju87.

[Volkoff]

I would love to have the opportunity at some point, either as an option in the sim or through a mod, to set up a big fight with large numbers of planes in an online mission, with full real settings (no visual aids of any kind) and no text or audible confirmation of kills or damage to enemy planes what so ever. No text messages confirming a kill, no AI squad mates confirming via radio (though human squad mates are allowed to) and no access to the other teams chat or TS to get clues from.

 

 

That would be awesome.

 

 MJ

Edited August 17, 2013 by MishaJames

[leitmotiv]

you have this option in good old il2 with HSFX Expert mod, some servers use it, no kill confirmations (ground or air), and limited HUD