Top ace killer

[Finkeren]

People always tend to discuss the merits of their favourite aircraft and pilots during WW2. While there can be little doubt about the exploits of the German fighters and the aces who flew them, there tends to be a lot of debate about the different Allied aircraft and their aces. 

 

So I decided to do a little experiment to find out, which Allied aircraft was actually the deadliest. Reliable kill scores for specific aircraft types aren't easy to come by (American numbers being an exception), so I tried a different approarch:

 

Running down the list of the 103 Luftwaffe aces with more than 100 confirmed victories, I tried to sort out how many of them were actually killed in combat and by which type of aircraft.

 

So here goes: The definitive list of which aircraft killed the most German top aces.

 

Note: This list is entirely for entertainment purposes. I'm not claiming that this somehow "proves" one aircraft to be superior to others. It's just a bit of fun I had, so don't take it seriously, and don't start a ridiculous flame war over this bit of nonsense.

 

About the findings: Of the 103 German "100+" aces, 50 were killed during WW2. A high casualty rate, but not too surprising given the insurmountable odds late in the war. The vast majority of them were killed during the last 24 months of the war, and a large minority of these died in the last 3 months. Of those who survived, a surprisingly large portion lived to very old age, a substantial number living into their 80s and 90s with a single of them still being alive.

 

Of the 50 who died, there are 35 cases where their death can be attributed to a specific aircraft type with some degree of certainty. This includes pilots who were last seen in combat with a certain aircraft type as well as pilots who died in mid air collisions with a specific type of aircraft. In one case there was uncertainty about whether a B-17 or a P-51 should be credited. I decided to award the kill to the fighter.

 

The list goes as follows:

 

P-51:                                                 8

P-47:                                                 7

Spitfire:                                           5

Yak(1-9):                                         4

Lavochkin (Lagg-3 – La-7):           3

AAA:                                                2

B-24:                                                2

A-20 (in Soviet service):               1

Il2:                                                    1

B-17:                                                1

B-26:                                                1

P-38:                                                1

P-39 (in soviet service) :               1

 

Considering that the vast majority of German top aces did most of their fighting on the Eastern Front, I was a bit surprised to see the USAAF lead so substantially (Trust me, I have no American bias, I'm very much a VVS-fan myself  ) Apparently the P-51 did "win the war"  

 

In addition to these 37 kills (35 by AC + 2 by AAA) a further 13 pilots died from other causes. These being divided almost equally between :

 

1. Pilots either MIA or killed by an unknown scource.

 

2. Pilots killed in landing accidents.

 

3. Pilots killed in other flying accidents (caused by mechanical failures, friendly mid-air collisions, bad weather etc.)

 

A single pilot was presumed killed by friendly fire.

 

I other words: By far the deadliest aircraft in terms of killing off the top German aces was: The Bf 109!!! It being responsible for the majority of landing accidents, mid-air collisions and at least 2 mechanical failures for a total of 9 deaths.  

 

Do with this list what you want, I had a good time making it, but please don't take it seriously.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

BTW: Those 103 German pilots had an average K/D ratio of around 308 to 1. Now, there is something for the stats-junkies to live up to.

[J2_Trupobaw]

I love your idea of measurement. I think the safe conclusion here is, Defence of the Reich was the deadliest enviroment for German pilots. Not that we didn't expect it...

Edited August 9, 2013 by Trupobaw

[von_Tom]

 

USAAF claims are no more reliable than any other nation's. For example Yaeger claimed two kills without firing at either. Not intending to start a flame war here but please don't make such a sweeping statement.

 

 

I'm really not surprised that most aces were killed over Western Europe. After all they were transferred back against hordes of USAAF aircraft with no safe place to land etc.

 

I like the work though.

 

Hood

[Finkeren]

I actually didn't expect it, and I was somewhat surprised/disappointed. It was my understanding that Reichsverteitigung duty mostly killed the young recruits of the Luftwaffe while the experienced and (presumably) less reckless aces were relatively safe.

 

Well, the numbers are what they are.

[gavagai]

Hi Finkeren,

 

Good post, except:

 

 

 

In other words: By far the deadliest aircraft in terms of killing off the top German aces was: The Bf 109!!! It being responsible for the majority of landing accidents, mid-air collisions and at least 2 mechanical failures for a total of 9 deaths.

 

Is a little silly.  I'm sure that at least 90% of people who die in auto accidents were also using rubber tires.

 

People also love to rag on the narrow-track landing gear of the 109, and ignore the condition of airfields on the Eastern front.  There's a great little video clip that shows 109s and 190s in Russia, where the runway has more in common with a muddy splash pool than a place to land an aircraft.

Edited August 9, 2013 by gavagai

[6S.Manu]

 I'm really not surprised that most aces were killed over Western Europe. After all they were transferred back against hordes of USAAF aircraft with no safe place to land etc. I like the work though. Hood

 

This. 

 

See Nowotny... not a honourable way of dying (but it's War nevertheless).

Edited August 9, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[BraveSirRobin]

How do you get the average k/d of 308 when only 2 German pilots had more than 300 kills?  Did you mean 208?

[Finkeren]

@Gav:

 

I absolutely agree with you. The last remark was intented as a joke. However, it also shows that for very experienced fighter pilots, non-combat accidents can be just as big a hazard as enemy aircraft.

 

Though you have to admit, that it's curious, that there wasn't a single Fw 190 landing accident on that list.

[Finkeren]

@BraveSirRobin:

No, I mean 308.

 

Those 103 pilots shot down a total of around 15,400 planes between them (Jeez, that's a BIG number) averaging just under 150 per pilot. However, less than 50% of them died during the war, giving a kill/death ratio: 15400/50=308.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Finkeren

[BraveSirRobin]

OK, I see what you meant.  

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I like the thread but have a problem with some of the math. ^^^^^

 

You can't take every goal in the NHL and ascribe them to only the Maple Leafs team for a team average?!

Edited August 9, 2013 by HerrMurf

[DD_bongodriver]

Oh god.......IBL!!

[Finkeren]

Ok guys, before this gets out of hand:

 

Don't under any circumstances take this seriously!

 

It was just a bit of fun I had toying around with some numbers. I'm not trying to draw any seriois conclusions from this, and neither should you.

 

Relax and have fun with it.

[DD_bongodriver]

Ok guys, before this gets out of hand:

 

Don't under any circumstances take this seriously!

 

It was just a bit of fun I had toying around with some numbers. I'm not trying to draw any seriois conclusions from this, and neither should you.

 

Relax and have fun with it.

 

I like your topic, it's a fascinating view on things, but sadly you have very gently brushed against a sensitive wild rabid beast of a subject that is German uber-aces with gazzillions of kills.

[[JG54]Vyper]

109's could be and had periods in which they were deadly to land. I'll have to pull some references when I get home from work. Off the top of my head early 109's, E series...and the early G series had different landing issues.

[Matt]

@BraveSirRobin:

No, I mean 308.

Those 103 pilots shot down a total of around 15,400 planes between them (Jeez, that's a BIG number) averaging just under 150 per pilot. However, less than 50% of them died during the war, giving a kill/death ratio: 15400/50=308.

But then you're comparing different kinds of "kills" right?

 

As in every plane shot down by those German aces as a kill, but only dead German aces as kills for the opposition.

 

I'm assuming that atleast some of those German aces got shot down (possibly multiple times) and survived. So that comparison makes not that much sense (completely ignoring wrong claims by those aces now).

 

But anyway, interesting statistic. Doesn't surprise me too much that the P-51 ranks highest. I would also guess that the P-51 had the longest flight time of any allied fighter over German held territory, thanks to its long range. Makes it overall more likely to get a chance to run into German aces, even more so while escorting B-17 which had targets painted on their wings and fuselage...

[JtD]

Interesting bit of research, never looked at it with that detail. Thanks for posting.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Hi Finkeren,

 

Good post, except:

 

 

 

 

Is a little silly.  I'm sure that at least 90% of people who die in auto accidents were also using rubber tires.

 

People also love to rag on the narrow-track landing gear of the 109, and ignore the condition of airfields on the Eastern front.  There's a great little video clip that shows 109s and 190s in Russia, where the runway has more in common with a muddy splash pool than a place to land an aircraft.

 

Here's an interesting article written by the late Mark Hanna and the still living Eric Brown:

 

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Documenti/Storia/Flying_%20109_ENG.pdf

 

Also, this thread has some interesting information which links off to other areas that maybe of interest:

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?96945-Messerschmitt-Bf109-Take-Off-Landing-Accident-Statistics

 

The numbers are interesting, however those with time could probably research and discover reasons why.

 

[Volkoff]

I'm assuming that atleast some of those German aces got shot down (possibly multiple times) and survived. So that comparison makes not that much sense (completely ignoring wrong claims by those aces now).

 

 

 

Including some of the highest scoring German aces, such as Guther Rall.

 

P.S. We should all be so lucky to survive a shoot down and while in hospital meet out future wife, a good looking and talented medical doctor, no less. How does one score that on a leaderboard? Is that a victory for the Allies or Rall? 

Edited August 9, 2013 by MishaJames

[gavagai]

@Gav:

 

I absolutely agree with you. The last remark was intented as a joke. However, it also shows that for very experienced fighter pilots, non-combat accidents can be just as big a hazard as enemy aircraft.

 

Though you have to admit, that it's curious, that there wasn't a single Fw 190 landing accident on that list.

 

Look at the top Aces again and tell us what proportion flew the 109 or 190.  I think you'll find your answer there.

[Talisman]

Tongue in cheek response LOL.  I think the Spitfire comes out on top as there were fewer of them that P51 and P47 (an assumption on my part as I have not crunched the figures), so in percentage terms the Spit is by far the greatest!  But then we all new that, LOL.

 

Be happy and have fun,

 

Talisman

[Finkeren]

Look at the top Aces again and tell us what proportion flew the 109 or 190.  I think you'll find your answer there.

That's another thing I found out looking through. I was under the impression, that almost every high scoring German ace flew Bf 109 almost exclusively. I was surprised to find just how many flew Fw 190 for at least part of their careers. I didn't count them, but from looking through all 103 biographies a rough estimate would be that from late 1943 about half the aces flew Fw 190.

 

Now, that doesn't prove anything at all. Just as 3 instances of death by landing accident among the top scoring German aces doesn't prove that the 109 was particularly dangerous or that the 190 was safer. The 8 kills for the P-51 pilots doesn't mean it's a better aircraft that the others. I'm not a statistician, but you don't have to be one to tell, that the "sample size" of 103 pilots is much too small to say anything meaningful about anything.

 

It's all just fun with numbers.

[Mysticpuma]

Just goes to show that in Real life the .50 calibres weren't porked

[Rjel]

Was the percentage of German aces higher in ratio to non aces than was the Allied air forces? It seems like I've read less than 1% of USAAF pilots were aces in WWII.

[[JG54]Vyper]

Memory was a little off. The 109E had serious takeoff issues, accumulating over 1500 accidents between the start of the war and autumn of 1941 caused by unintentional swings on takeoff. Only after a locking device which operated when the throttle was fully opened did the swing tendency lesson.

 

And according to the Bf-109 section in "Famous Fighters of the Second World War" by William Green, ....The Bf-109G could not be flown in a landing circuit with flaps and undercarriage down other than at full throttle, and experienced German operational pilots have described its landing characteristics as "malicious". Nevertheless, some 70 percent of all Bf 109 fighters produced during the war years were of the G-series.

[leitmotiv]

Just goes to show that in Real life the .50 calibres weren't porked

 

 

In RL when most of guys saw bullets passing next to his cocpit or some of them hit the airplane he would bail or frezz, in game 120 bullets hit the airplane players still fly with heavy damaged airplane, trying to land with no elevators and so on

Edited August 10, 2013 by Yaklover

[TheBlackPenguin]

In RL when most of guys saw bullets passing next to his cocpit or some of them hit the airplane he would bail or frezz, in game 120 bullets hit the airplane players still fly with heavy damaged airplane, trying to land with no elevators and so on

 

No doubt this happened, although far less likely from a veteran crew, indeed when reading this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Crew-Missions-Europe-Journal/dp/0988788055/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

 

John mentions when they were new and inexperienced they got attacked and no-one fired a shot in return as they had frozen just the way you described . However, when they landed they all got a serious dressing down and it never happened again. His experience of actual combat is fascinating, not being afraid during the actual fighting as you're busy to be afraid I think is the way he described it.

 

I'm also going through this:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Air-Americas-Against-Germany/dp/0743235452/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

 

One account detailed how the majority of one crew on-board a heavily damaged B-17 bailed out, yet the pilot still managed to nurse the plane back to base. I'd imagine this would have likely happened at the end, or near the end of combat.

[Finkeren]

Was the percentage of German aces higher in ratio to non aces than was the Allied air forces? It seems like I've read less than 1% of USAAF pilots were aces in WWII.

Well, given that the Luftwaffe was outnumbered in most of its battles after 1940 and generally shot down more aircraft than it lost, it would seem reasonable that they would have a higher percentage of aces.

 

I'm not going into a debate about over-claiming (though that certainly did happen) and just look at the official German numbers.

 

Using Wikipedia numbers (so take it with a massive lump of salt) more than 2500 German pilots attained ace status in WW2, the entire Luftwaffe downing over 70,000 planes, which would indicate a high percentage of aces. However, also bear in mind, that more than half of all aircraft kills in the Luftwaffe were claimed by just 463 individual pilots, namely those who had more than 40 kills (that is: those who scored better than the top scoring American ace).

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

One point seems to fall a little under the table many had to switch from 109 to the Me262 which was very vulnrable during

take off and landing. There are many accounts that allied pilots would wait until a Me262 was in the process of landing.

If that really is an art, to knock out a sitting duck I don´t know.

[SYN_Ricky]

One point seems to fall a little under the table many had to switch from 109 to the Me262 which was very vulnrable during

take off and landing. There are many accounts that allied pilots would wait until a Me262 was in the process of landing.

If that really is an art, to knock out a sitting duck I don´t know.

It's just the war logic. Shoot them down when they're most vulnerable, in the 262 case it means when landing. Still the Germans put so much flak around the jets airbases that it soon became a risky business for allied pilots to do.

 

Some German pilots did the same on the eastern front, circling high around airfields or following Russian planes to their bases to swoop down on them at landing or take-off...

Edited August 10, 2013 by SYN_Ricky

[DB605]

About landing and take-off features of bf 109, i think this is the best quotes: "The worst thing about Me109 was its bad reputation which caused unnecessary nervousness on many (new) pilots. The tendency to swing was related to this. As a plane the Me was a typical wartime fighter equipped with a powerful engine. A cool pilot could easily control the plane's direction and change it when accelerating." (Jorma Karhunen, Finnish fighter ace. 36 1/2 victories)

 

"Landing was slightly problematic if the approach was straight, with slight overspeed at about 180 km/h. Landing was extremely easy and pleasing when done with shallow descending turn, as then you could see easily the landing point. You had a little throttle, speed 150-160 km/h, 145 km/h at final. You controlled the descent speed with the engine and there was no problems, the feeling was the same as with Stieglitz. If I recall correctly the Me "sits down" at 140-142 km/h.
The takeoff and landing accidents were largely result from lack of experience in training. People didn't know what to do and how to do it. As a result the plane was respected too much, and pilots were too careful. The plane carried the man, and the man didn't control his plane."
- Erkki O. Pakarinen, Finnish fighter pilot, Finnish Air Force trainer.

 

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Edited August 10, 2013 by DB605

[FlatSpinMan]

Cool idea, and I like the way you're presenting it. No axe to grind, no agenda to push, just 'this stuff interested me so it'll probably interest you'.

[Streiff]

109's could be and had periods in which they were deadly to land. I'll have to pull some references when I get home from work. Off the top of my head early 109's, E series...and the early G series had different landing issues.

 

 

Seem to remember reading that it had to do with the angle of the wheels in relation to the landing struts and not the narrow undercarriage itself. Something to do with side slipping or something, cant remember exactly. The wheels would dig into the ground so to speak.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Baron

[Bearcat]

Just goes to show that in Real life the .50 calibres weren't porked

 

They aren't in IL2 anymore either...

 

Cool idea, and I like the way you're presenting it. No axe to grind, no agenda to push, just 'this stuff interested me so it'll probably interest you'.

 

I like the way this thread is going..

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

And then you have Hans-Ulrich Rudel and his Ju87 Stuka.

Twice rejected and the third time reporting for duty the war broke out and he was commissioned.

2400 combat missions when surrendering to the Americans with his Stuka.

He was shot down 30 times+, landed behind enemy lines to pick up downed pilot repeatedly.
Flew the last sorties with prosthetic limb and scored 26 more tanks during the battle of Berlin.

All in all if I recall correctly he claimed over 500 tanks.

 

He also flew the Fw190 but always returned to the Stuka

He refused to accept the Golden Oak Leave with 58 brilliants from the Führer unless he was
allowed to continue in combat.

 

Just of my mind and I havn't checked my reference library so some errors might be present

Edited August 10, 2013 by 332_HaJa

[AX2]

Takeoffs .. this is crazy 

 

 

http://blip.tv/videos-by-mysticpuma-now-showing-checkertails-part1/near-disaster-on-luftwaffe-109-and-190-take-off-real-video-footage-4821582

Edited August 10, 2013 by Mustang

[leitmotiv]

No doubt this happened, although far less likely from a veteran crew, indeed when reading this book:

...

 

 

yes i was thinking that probably happend to some rokies, i missed to see that topic is only about Ace pilots geting shot down, they probably would not jump at first birst coming over they canopy

[gavagai]

 

Takeoffs .. this is crazy 

 

 

http://blip.tv/videos-by-mysticpuma-now-showing-checkertails-part1/near-disaster-on-luftwaffe-109-and-190-take-off-real-video-footage-4821582

 

 

Yes!  That's the video I was trying to find!  Harrowing stuff.

[Finkeren]

Well the planes in the video are Fw 190Ds and a Bf 109G-10, so you definately can't blame primitive Russian airstrips 

 

These planes are almost certainly taking off from a makeshift runway on a bombed out German aerodrome in late 1944/early 1945. Notice the light color of the Bf 109. It's most likely a designated high-altitude interceptor, which were painted overall sky blue in the last months of the war.

BTW: One of the aces in my little "study" (I forget who) died in a landing accident, because his plane rolled straight into a bomb crater and exploded