Let's talk about our favorite warplanes

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

All yall missed that A1Skyraider someone snuck in.

All thought that

And these are mine

Typhoon

Tempest

IL2

Bf110

I love ground work, takes balls of steal to dive in on ground targets at 200 mph and above

And at the last second pull up and away!

[Freycinet]

Please, cut the BS and stay on topic. I wonder, why do people have so high opinions about things they havent expierenced themselves and probably have knowledge of from some tv-docus..t.

Ehh, what? You call it BS when I say Nazi-Germany was an evil state? If that's the case then it is probably you who have a problem, not me...

[Freycinet]

Fw-189 (great sun house cockpit)

 

I'd love to fly that one in a sim, but unfortunately there isn't much it can be used for... - The view out must be spectacular, though!

[TJT]

Ehh, what? You call it BS when I say Nazi-Germany was an evil state? If that's the case then it is probably you who have a problem, not me...

 

While his choice of words was a bit rude, i'd say bringing up the possible political aspect of a fascination for a particular aircraft was a bit bad style. It could be read as you implied 109 fans being closet nazis.

[Finkeren]

I'd love to fly that one (Fw 189) in a sim, but unfortunately there isn't much it can be used for... - The view out must be spectacular, though!

 

Have you ever flown recon missions in RoF? There is plenty the Fw 189 can be used for. I think a lot of RoF-players would agree, that some of their greatest experiences in the sim comes from flying two seaters on photo or visual reconnaissance, artillery spotting etc.

[Finkeren]

I must say, I don't get this whole discussion about the many people (myself included) who put the Bf 109 on their top lists.

 

Sure there are a few nazi-nostalgia nuts floating around the Internet, but they are few in number and certainly can't explain all the votes the 109 gets.

 

I picked the 109 for all 3 "versions" of my list for a variety of reasons exactly none of which has to do with any kind of glorification of Nazi Germany, nor any affinity for "bad guy" planes. 

 

I love the Bf 109 for the following qualities:

 

* Its incredible service record and historical importance throughout the war (This shouldn't even be debatable)

 

* Its sleek and elegant design, especially from the F-model onwards (Entirely debatable, but everyone has to admit, that is was a very clean and funtional design with high standards of engineering) 

 

* Its very high performance and ability to engage a vide variety of different opponents on at least equal terms

 

* Its large variety of markings and paint schemes, some of which are among the most beautifully designed ever (Again open for dispute, but many seem to agree)

 

* Its nearly unparallelled versatility with great potential for development (stayed competitive from 1937 to 1945 and beyond)

 

* The fact that it pioneered several new technologies

 

* Its awesome engine sound

 

 

These are all qualities that have no connection to the hideous politics that lay behind the 109s development and usage.

[theOden]

..

I love ground work, takes balls of steal to dive in on ground targets at 200 mph and above

And at the last second pull up and away!

 

I'm so with you, only thing is I tend to target fixate and smack into the ground.

I really never been any good at this prop-simming but I love it

(I originate from Falcon F-16's, we don't strafe)

[LLv44_Mprhead]

About 109 and it's popularity; yes, there are people who are fascinated by Nazi Germany and like all things German because of that. Then there are people like Finkeren who have their reasons (listed above) and then there is (a large) group who like the plane, because their country was using it during the war. That kinda explains it's popularity in Germany, Finland, Croatia, Hungary etc.

[Foobar]

(this forum is about planes, not politics!)

 

Exactly.

[Ice_Eagle]

I'll say it. The Luftwaffe doctrine is that fights for/defends the German people. And has no political affiliates what so ever. Despite even the swastika on the tail, Anf the loyalty oath to Hitler. This even extends to the regular army and navy. The Waffen SS was Hitler's personal army. This isn't a political statement.. its just the way it was.

[FuriousMeow]

The whole Blitzkrieg thing sort of shatters that nobility thing amongst the LuftWaffe being the defenders of the German peoples.

[Finkeren]

I'll say it. The Luftwaffe doctrine is that fights for/defends the German people. And has no political affiliates what so ever. Despite even the swastika on the tail, Anf the loyalty oath to Hitler. This even extends to the regular army and navy. The Waffen SS was Hitler's personal army. This isn't a political statement.. its just the way it was.

I won't take this thread further off topic by starting a lengthy discussion about this, but it has to be said: Arguments like these are rubbish and serve no purpose other than whitewashing the atrocities committed by the German military.

[SYN_DerHesse70]

So you think that all german soldiers where nazis?

[Finkeren]

So you think that all german soldiers where nazis?

No obviously not, but it is beyond doubt that all branches of the German military participated in gross violations of basic human rights and the laws of war. I will not take this thread further off track. PM me if you have anything further to add.

So you think that all german soldiers where nazis?

No obviously not, but it is beyond doubt that all branches of the German military participated in gross violations of basic human rights and the laws of war. I will not take this thread further off track. PM me if you have anything further to add.

[Potenz]

I'd love to fly that one in a sim, but unfortunately there isn't much it can be used for... - The view out must be spectacular, though!

 

It was a sucsesfull recon plane, would be nice to have one to fly some of those missions

[AX2]

Soviet 1919 to 1991

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes.  

 

 

I like the P 51 because it is a silver arrow !! Enjoy !!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmW33ClMxoA

 

 

 

.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Mustang

[DB605]

No obviously not, but it is beyond doubt that all branches of the German military participated in gross violations of basic human rights and the laws of war. I will not take this thread further off track.

 

And so did virtually every other armies too during the war so guys please cut this nonsense and stay on topic...

[leitmotiv]

Nice video Mustang but Yaks are the best looking birds 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhizELx4fng

Edited August 14, 2013 by Yaklover

[DB605]

Nice video Mustang but Yaks are the best looking birds 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhizELx4fng

 

They are nice birds indeed, just shame there are not ones with original engines. Same goes to Migs too...

[AX2]

Nice video Mustang but Yaks are the best looking birds 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhizELx4fng

 

Thanks for sharing,  Is beautiful the YAK 3 !!!

Edited August 14, 2013 by Mustang

[Freycinet]

And so did virtually every other armies too during the war so guys please cut this nonsense and stay on topic...

 

Don't relativize the German behaviour during the war, which was criminal and institutionalized, and say "everybody did it"... THAT is indeed nonsense. 

 

On topic: the 109 is a magnificent plane, I totally understand that a lot of people love it.  And of course we can all start up the sim and fly for whichever country we want without it implying any political stance. It is a GAME and, just as in chess, somebody has to play the black pieces. I am very happy to fly Blue in CoD and i think it is cool to fly all sides...  

[leitmotiv]

They are nice birds indeed, just shame there are not ones with original engines. Same goes to Migs too...

 

yes real shame they do not have original engines

[Jaws2002]

Thanks for sharing,  Is beautiful the YAK 3 !!!

The Yak-9U is the Russian ww2 plane I like the most. The yak3 is somehow too short for my messed up esthetic understanding. But the 9U is pure secs on wings.

Long nose, fast and mean looking and performance to match the cool looks. What's not to like.

 

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jaws2002

[Rjel]

I can agree with the importance of the 109 to history and that it did it's job. Sorta. I can't agree it was a slick design. Too many bumps, bulges and square corners all over the airframe from the G on to be called slick. Certainly not slick like a Spit or (gasp) a P-51.

[gavagai]

Yes, I also got the insinuation from Freycinet that people who like the Bf 109 might be closet Nazis.  No one ever draws the same connection between C.205 and Italian fascism, the Yak-9 and communism, or the A6M and Japanese imperialism.  You can like those without anyone suspecting your character.

 

Part of the reason that I like the 109 is that many have tried hard to discredit it (probably because of the politics).  When I learned more about the aircraft than the usual hatchet jobs offer here in the USA I was very impressed.

 

 

While his choice of words was a bit rude, i'd say bringing up the possible political aspect of a fascination for a particular aircraft was a bit bad style. It could be read as you implied 109 fans being closet nazis.

 

 

Ehh, what? You call it BS when I say Nazi-Germany was an evil state? If that's the case then it is probably you who have a problem, not me...

[gavagai]

I can agree with the importance of the 109 to history and that it did it's job. Sorta. I can't agree it was a slick design. Too many bumps, bulges and square corners all over the airframe from the G on to be called slick. Certainly not slick like a Spit or (gasp) a P-51.

 

The Spitfire similarly had to introduce bumps on the wings to accommodate the Mk II HS cannon (which protrude far from the wings on the Mk V and later variants).  As mentioned above, both the Spit and the 109 were too small for their weapons.

 

Here are the lines of the Bf 109G-10:

 

[FuriousMeow]

Political drivel should have ended a while ago, never really even brought up.

 

This about the planes, the mechanical air beasts that would cause our ancesters to soil themselves. They have no political affiliation, they just aviate. For the most part, they are cool. Some look like a 3 year old snuck into the prototyping phase and created an abomination that only Homer Simpson could dream of, but otherwise mostly cool.

 

Could we keep it to that?

[FuriousMeow]

Here are the lines of the Bf 109G-10:

 

<picture omitted to not replicate>

 

The wings still have bumps for sturdier landing gear.

[Finkeren]

Part of the reason that I like the 109 is that many have tried hard to discredit it (probably because of the politics).  When I learned more about the aircraft than the usual hatchet jobs offer here in the USA I was very impressed.

 I can totally relate to that. The books and comics I read as a child and the movies I saw always treated the Bf 109 as an obviously inferior cannon-fodder aircraft, while for some reason glamourizing the Fw 190 like it was some kind of secret-weapon-wonder-plane. The Spitfire/Hurri and the P-51/47/38 respectively were ofc infallible masters of the sky. I remember a particularly repulsive comic about a British pilot going to the USSR to train them on Hurricanes. Not only was the VVS pilots (and especially officers presented as complete fools (though brave fools at that) the Hurricane was also pictured as being vastly superior to the Yak 1B and Bf 109F.

 

Even today I feel a kind of silly ( and somewhat undeserved) distain for particularly the Spitfire, P-51 and to a lesser extent the Fw 190. Being told over and over again that "this was the best fighter of the war", when this is most definately not a clear cut case, kinda makes you go in the other direction, especially when concerning an aircraft with such obvious qualities and a proven track record as the Bf 109.

[Veteran66]

Fw190

He111

Ju88

Me110

Me109

 

 

 

Favorite theatre: North Africa 41/43 and Med

[Finkeren]

The Spitfire similarly had to introduce bumps on the wings to accommodate the Mk II HS cannon (which protrude far from the wings on the Mk V and later variants).  As mentioned above, both the Spit and the 109 were too small for their weapons.

 

Here are the lines of the Bf 109G-10:

 

How can one honestly look at that and say, that's not a sleek and elegant design?

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Nothing against people who love the P51, we all have our favorites.

 

But...i feel nothing when i look at a P51, just does nothing for me at all.

 

I admire what it did and the impact it had on the airwar though.

[6S.Manu]

I really don't like the 109 because of its look: it has an harsh, cold and squared aspect, typical of a real war machine. To me it's a matter of engine: the sound of the DB is unique and amazing.

BTW I think many praise Spitfires and P51s without giving recognition to their engines: do you conceive the idea of these plane with a weaker one?

Edited August 15, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Finkeren]

BTW I think many praise Spitfires and P51s without giving recognition to their engines: do you conceive the idea of these plane with a weaker one?

Actually, that's what I find so amazing about the Yaks and late Lagg-3s. The Klimov was by no standard a great engine, even in its most developed form. Instead it was the aircrafts designs that made them into great fighters.

[gavagai]

Even today I feel a kind of silly ( and somewhat undeserved) distain for particularly the Spitfire, P-51 and to a lesser extent the Fw 190. Being told over and over again that "this was the best fighter of the war", when this is most definately not a clear cut case, kinda makes you go in the other direction, especially when concerning an aircraft with such obvious qualities and a proven track record as the Bf 109.

 

The thing that kills me is how we (Americans) are raised to believe that the P-51 was the most maneuverable fighter of WW2....ahem, except for the Zero.  Every airshow I go to with P-51s repeats this myth, and only the odd Englishman at the airshow winces because he knows the Spitfire was definitely more maneuverable than the Zero.

 

The summary of a comparison of American fighters by the Society of Experimental Test Pilots:

 

----------------

 

A few years ago, the Society of Experimental Test Pilots ran a flight test

comparison of the F6F-5, FG-1D (Goodyear F4U), P-47D-40 and P-51D. Chief

test pilot was John Ellis of Kal-Aero. Other pilots also participated.

 

 

MANEUVERING STABILITY stick forces/g at Vmax

FG-1--5 lbs/g (too light)

P-47--7.5 lbs/g (ideal)

F6F--12.5 lbs/g (barely acceptable)

P-51--over 20 lbs/g (excessive)

 

 

AIR-TO-AIR TRACKING 210 KIAS at 10,000 ft. (straight & level into a 3g

turn to the left building to 4g followed by a hard reversal into a 4g

right turn.)

FG-1 best, followed by P-47, F6F and, trailing badly, the P-51. Lateral

corrections in the P-51 were difficult thanks to the very high stick

forces.

 

 

AGILITY

g capture of 3g target, held for 5 seconds.

G capture and hold was easiest in the P-47, predictable and accurate. F6F

overshot the target by 0.2g. P-51 and FG-1 both overshot by 0.5g

 

C.C. Jordan offers this, but does not provide details, date-s, pilots etc.

 

I have data that indicates that the

P-51D, at corner speed, measures 48 lbs in a 3g pull. Up to 86 Lbs at

5g's. The P-47D, OTOH, requires just 16 lbs at 3g and 27 lbs at 5g's.

The testers state that the Mustang was a true "two hander".

 

http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/index.php?topic=11206.0

 

More of the report here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/22229-Notes-from-British-P-47-test-pilot-Forums/page5

 

"The P-51 gave no warning whatsoever of an accelerated stall. At the stall, the aircraft departed with complete loss of control, achieving 270-degree of roll before recovery. Departure was accompanied by violent aileron snatch strong enough to rip the control stick from the hand. In short, the P-51 suffered from a Part I deficiency."

 

--------------------

 

All that said, it's still one of my favorite aircraft from WW2.  My hope is that we can appreciate the aircraft that it really was instead of needing it to be a super plane.

[Heywooood]

theres a collector in Canada - based in Ft Erie? that has a 109e4 with the original engine...or at least it is the correct engine

 

can we please not take this thread or this board down the rabbit hole with the neo-nazi, hakenkruz chatter

 

can we just assume that anyone posting in favor of the Me109 or Fw190 is doing so WRT to the aircraft and its respective performance and no other reason?

 

we are aircraft and flight enthusiasts, not a political think tank (or any other think thinger either) or ideology board - please

[SYN_Ricky]

I like the 109 because it's one of the first warbird I've seen as a kid, displayed at the Dübendorf Swiss Airforce Museum. I thought he looked much meaner than the others

Edited August 15, 2013 by SYN_Ricky

[Ice_Eagle]

Well the BF 109 K can certainly outclimb and outdive a P-51. It can also out turn and out roll the -51 at most altitudes. Certain speeds being the exception on rolls. Also the -51 isn't exactly a clean design either.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Ice_Eagle

[Ice_Eagle]

The 109 K is also as fast or faster at certain altitudes.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Well the BF 109 K can certainly outclimb and outdive a P-51. It can also out turn and out roll the -51 at most altitudes. Certain speeds being the exception on rolls. Also the -51 isn't exactly a clean design either.

I think those qualities are marginal when it is about    "our favorite warplanes"  thinking of the ones I like, most fighters can out manouver easily, and still I like them.

I think the details you mention fit best in a "Performance Thread"?