Landing the Nieuport 11 WITHOUT ground looping?

[LufberyJAA]

Hi all,

 

I'm pretty well versed in the techniques for landing tail draggers, and can do well with Nieuport 17s, Nieuport 28s, SSW D.IV, and the inline engined planes. Any plane with a slip indicator is actually easier to keep straight when slowing after touchdown, but I can usually use a visual reference to make the appropriate rudder to track straight while keeping the stick full back.

 

But the Nieuport 11 is driving me nuts! For one thing, I bounce every time I touch down. For another, the all flying rudder is very sensitive and I tend to overcorrect.

 

Anyway, for those who can land that little plane successfully, what speed are you making your approach? Are you doing wheel landings, or a three point attitude upon touchdown? Any other tips?

 

Thanks!

[LufberyJAA]

So am I the only one flying (and trying to land) the Nieuport 11? 🤪

[AndyJWest]

12 minutes ago, LufberyJAA said:

So am I the only one flying (and trying to land) the Nieuport 11? 🤪

No, but you are probably the only one to admit to finding it hard. It is. It drives me nuts.

 

No doubt someone will turn up with an 'entirely reliable' way to avoid it. And then someone else will say the exact opposite. Neither will work for me...

[LufberyJAA]

At least I'm not alone! 😬

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

Maybe we can either get some really good advice, OR form a support group!

[Flashy]

Landing either the N17 or the N11 without ground looping always seems like a dice roll for me.. Sometimes I roll the right number and it doesnt do it, but equally often I break a lower wing... I think they are aircraft you have to perfectly 3 point, every time.. any bounce or mistake and you are going round.... 

[LufberyJAA]

Well, I found this on YouTube:

 

 

Requiem recommends a wheel landing. I will give that a shot.

 

 

[Flashy]

ah okay, I was wrong then! I see he also uses the mixture to decrease the engine RPM even more than it is at idle.. not sure what the motivation behind that is.. maybe the power at idle is high enough to make it bounce and float (and then loop) on landing, so you need to reduce it even more.. interesting.. 

[AndyJWest]

I'm fairly certain that the issue is that in the three-point attitude, the wings are at an AoA well above stall. Which means that any sideslip (due to wind, torque, or just foot-trouble) as the tail goes down once your wheels are on deck will result in asymmetric lift and drag, until both wings have stalled. This is true of a fair number of IL-2 GB aircraft (The P-40 is another fine example), and, depending largely on dihedral angle, something that presumably occurs in real life too. This effect is in addition to the assymetric (and in front of the CG) effects of the wheels themselves causing drag in a sideslip, which itself is a major cause of groundlooping.

 

Modelling ground handling is hard. It adds a whole new set of wheel-force-vector variables to an already complex aerodynamic situation. On the whole, I'd say IL-2 GB has done a good job on this, compared to several flight sims I could name.

 

 

Edited Friday at 08:24 PM by AndyJWest

[86Cheese]

I've been able to do it fairly consistently after a few career missions. What I've found is that using the blip switch is really important. During the glide slope I'll hold the switch for about 2-3 seconds at a time until just before touchdown and the let off it. If you hit the ground with some power and really pin the tail to the ground with full aft stick it seems to roll pretty nicely. I do still occasionally do a loop as soon as I cut the power in the parking area though if im not careful.

[LufberyJAA]

I've started to have some success with the technique in the video, but @86Cheese, your technique seems to be what modern pilots do in WWI aircraft these days. 

 

The landing in this video is what I was trying to do:

 

I think I was still coming in too fast, so slowing the engine down and staying mostly level for a wheel landing seems to help me.