P-47, what am I doing wrong

[VBF-12_Stele]

I know the P-47's flight model has been more of a challenge since one the updates some time ago as it was stated. One of the noticeable signs is the sudden tumble when rolling at low energy or slow speeds. Just when I think I'm doing fine in a slow roll over to bomb a target from about 5,000 feet the plane will almost frisby roll unless I force the roll and go with it and come out of it. I know I'm heavy with bombs, but I've also experienced it coming out of a dive bomb with even good speed.

 

I have simshaker, which helps me catch early signs of stalling or buffeting, but I don't get those signs (shakes) while flying the P-47 in that situation.

 

What's a good rule of thumb to avoid these tumbles / throws / frisby stalls?

[BlitzPig_EL]

One has to remember the Thunderbolt's original role, high altitude interceptor/fighter.  A role it excelled at long before the Mustang was a twinkle in the eye of the USAAF.

Unfortunately, in sims, that high altitude prowess does not transfer to it's ability in the attack role, even though it accomplished that role quite well in the real world.

The key in sims is to fly it like an airliner.  No abrupt control inputs, Have a plan and set up your attack passes well in advance, and keep your speed up, and God forbid if any enemy aircraft show up while you are down low.  Your only defense is to run away as fast and as far as possible.

[357th_KW]

14 hours ago, VBF-12_Stele said:

I know the P-47's flight model has been more of a challenge since one the updates some time ago as it was stated. One of the noticeable signs is the sudden tumble when rolling at low energy or slow speeds. Just when I think I'm doing fine in a slow roll over to bomb a target from about 5,000 feet the plane will almost frisby roll unless I force the roll and go with it and come out of it. I know I'm heavy with bombs, but I've also experienced it coming out of a dive bomb with even good speed.

 

I have simshaker, which helps me catch early signs of stalling or buffeting, but I don't get those signs (shakes) while flying the P-47 in that situation.

 

What's a good rule of thumb to avoid these tumbles / throws / frisby stalls?

If you turn on the visual “head shake” effect, you’ll be able to see the stall buffet in the 47 before it breaks.  I find it makes it much easier to fly and push its limits without constantly stalling.

[MaxPower]

Wings stall at a certain angle of attack, usually 15-18 degrees.  This angle of attack can be achieved at practically any speed given sufficient elevator authority.  One wing may stall before the other if the aircraft is out of coordinated flight.  And, I guess the last tidbit is that it's impossible to stall an unloaded wing (and also an unloaded wing creates less drag).

The slower you go, the more angle of attack is required to do what you want to do (fly level, turn, etc).  At a certain speed, the angle of attack required to generate enough lift to keep the plane in the air exceeds the wing's AoA limits.  This is the aircraft's 'stall speed'.  You can exceed the AoA limit at any time by demanding more lift than the wing is capable of producing under the AoA limit by making the aircraft 'heavier' by pulling G's.  Also, the heavier the aircraft is, the more angle of attack it will need to do what you want it to.  So, try and keep the aircraft coordinated and be more gentle with the elevator.  You can try to keep your speed highish, which will demand less angle of attack to do the maneuvers you want to make.  If you are heavy and slow, you have to be mindful that the aircraft may not be able to do what you ask it.  You can try to accelerate out of a low speed state by doing a zero g push over with the throttle up, then ask the aircraft to do extreme things.

I haven't tried this in the jug, but in the FW-190, if you feel a wing starting to go, you can immediately boot the opposite rudder pedal hard.  This always helps prevent or delay one wing stalling.  You would then want to ease up on the elevator to bring the angle of attack down.

[VBF-12_Stele]

Thanks for the feedback. I've flown the Jug for ages, but having flown it more often now with this newer flight model its adding quite a challenge. I don't want to do the apples and oranges comparison to the other combat sim out there, but there are some noticeable differences.

[Trooper117]

4 hours ago, VBF-12_Stele said:

but there are some noticeable differences.

 

You said it!

[geckoSOH]

Low, slow, and heavy, and then trying to roll and ending up in a spin? No surprises there. The quoted stall speed of an airplane is the speed it stalls at when experiencing 1 G. Stalls will occur at higher speeds when under higher g loads; these are known as accelerated stalls, and they are typically more violent and sensitive than 1 G stalls. A little lack of rudder coordination (ball not centered) and you're in a spin. If you've got bombs hanging out there on the wing, that much weight so far out from your centerline is going to tend to stabilize you in the spin and make it hard to recover. Generally you wouldn't be doing aerobatics with bombs on. 

 

When pulling out of a dive, even though you're going much faster, your elevator will be more effective (as long as you aren't going so fast that compressibility is in play) and a violent pull out at speed can really spike your G loading, which can absolutely send your stall speed higher than your current airspeed and once again you find yourself in a violent accelerated stall.

 

Smooth elevator inputs can smooth out that spike in g load, and then you can feel the aircraft through stick and head shake for just how far back you can pull the stick. You'll have a lot more warning and can adjust accordingly in time to avoid loss of control.

Edited August 29 by geckoSOH

[[CPT]Crunch]

Big problem is in this world of IL-2 physics, most of the other fighters in this class of aircraft don't experience any sort of stalls or accelerated stalls no matter how, when, or what you do on the controls.  This compounded with flight controls effectiveness right down to zero air speeds makes for some real flights of fantasy when compared to this pigs given limitations. 

 

There's aircraft with hard limitations and flight envelopes, than there's those who just don't, both flying in the same engine.  Most of the early series and modules that were modeled simply don't.  Just like flaps, nearly unbreakable in P-39's and 40's but relatively easy to break in P-51's and lightnings when in reality it was the complete opposite.     

 

The physics may have evolved but much of the game has never caught up.  Why I tend to fly only with late map and model modules in the west, the best balance and match ups physics wise.

[LukeFF]

Let's be careful with the flight model comments, please. 🙂