JG4_Nemesis Posted August 27, 2014 Author Posted August 27, 2014 Thank you so much for your appreciation guys! By now, as I read through all your gratifying comments, I know that it was well worth all the time, effort and energy I put into this. I just felt I had to do this, because it is an issue that has been bothering me since 2003..........and - oh yes - I love the Fw190!!
Yankee_One Posted August 27, 2014 Posted August 27, 2014 Wow, super vid. Its so clear for me now. Danke, echt toll.
von_Greiff Posted August 27, 2014 Posted August 27, 2014 Nice one, Nemesis. Although the hood of the FW is not horizontal, this should be a reference video for every WW2 flight sim developer. @Blechbohrer.....gut, wirkllich gut, Kamerad! lololololol 1
7./Sch.G.2_Stublerone Posted August 27, 2014 Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) Very impressive! One question: What about the frame parts ON the window? They are quite thick as well to my memory. Would be great to see, how this effects it. I guess the refraction is not bothered anyhow by that frame outside on the window. Thx a lot, Nemesis! Edited August 27, 2014 by 7./Sch.G.2_Stublerone
KaC_Furias Posted August 27, 2014 Posted August 27, 2014 Fw190 done right, many years ago, in Target Torbruk. Free expansion for a free game! I played Target Tobruk a lot. Good old days Thanks for sharing the pic.
II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33 Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) Off topic but This is how the 190 Op's first post was found and she still uses her original BWM 801 to fly with 70 year later. And the full story http://topwar.ru/27237-rekonstrukciya-samoleta-fw190a-5.html Edited August 28, 2014 by OCTz06z33
JG4_Nemesis Posted August 28, 2014 Author Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) I just had an Idea....I don't know about the current capabilities of modern 3D-Engines, but what I know from 1999 is the Unreal Engine of the original game Unreal by Epic. when you see that "door" - It is a teleporter and when you look on its entry you see something different than what really is behind the teleport-door - this should work for the windscreen effect as well - at least it is worth taking a look at the technology back then (unreal engine 1 from the year 1999).There were "doors" where you saw a different room than the space which really was behind that door - if now the door would have the frame of the INNER windscreen frame, and behind that you see a separate "room" that is exactly so but only 37mm lower...? Edited August 31, 2014 by I/JG27_Nemesis 3
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) There were "doors" where you saw a different room than the space which really was behind that door - if now the door would have the frame of the INNER windscreen frame, and behind that you see a separate "room" that is exactly so but only 37mm lower...? I think we need more details on that effect before going ahead with suggestions. Those portals maybe can only display a static room whereas in BoS it had to display first an moving enviroument + planes (with real time resolution to not hinder the pilot) and second the donwshift in relastion to distanced objects (instead of shifting the whole picture 37mm downward). I'm no engine expert but judging from the video it's not likely the developers of the Unreal engine implemented such a sytsem, it's more likely just menat to be a gimmik. The idea is quite worth shifting it around though and any evidence it might work the way we'd need it would be more than promising! Edited August 28, 2014 by [Jg26]5tuka
II/JG54_Emil Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Just FYI, refraction is relative and not all transparent materials refract light. There's an index system that measures refraction relative to other materials and some feature no refraction at all. Yep! For the "Panzerglas" used in WW2, which basically is Verbundglas (laminated glas), meaning it's several layers of glass separated by plastic foil. The glass layer in Panzerglas has a refraction index of 2.5 the foil has a refraction index of 1.03. Since the plastic foil is a very thin (0,38 mm to 0,76 mm) layer it can nearly be ignored. Which leaves us at least with a strong refraction index of >2.25.
JG4_Nemesis Posted August 29, 2014 Author Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) I made it to get my old Unreal running on Windows 7 Because the existing youtube videos showed annoying fast deathmatch scenes I decided to make my own short Unreal Video: If 3D Engines from 1999 made such effects possible, and if it was no performance problem with those old graphic boards before year 2k, it shouldn't be a problem in 2014. Would be really glad if that could help. Edited August 31, 2014 by I/JG27_Nemesis 1
CreepiJim Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 If the windscreen is a picture-in-picture, the scene has to be rendered twice. I know for a fact that the CryEngine3 is not capable of doing so, which is known to be the most advanced and capable for all kinds of genres. Bear in mind: Rendering a different scene to "simulate" the different field of view through the refracting windscreen requires the scene to be fully dynamic. The game has to make zoom possible for both scenes rendered simultaneously, otherwise there would be a delay in changing the field of view in the cockpit. Furthermore the engine has to calculate the scene twice. For the non-refracting view and for the armoured windscreen part, which is a different field of view (canted forward). I don't know if you guys are always running the latest tech in your PCs, I would be happy to have a constant 60fps on my rig (i7 2600k, 16GB DDR3, GTX770Ti/OC on a 21:9 monitor). The Unreal engine is capable of picture-in-picture rendering, hence the realistic rifle scope simulation (not a full screen scope overlay) with different magnifications. Just because Unreal can do that without massive performance loss does not mean every engine can "just" do it. As stated earlier, the CryEngine3 can not and I doubt BoS could and at which cost (hardware specs/development time) 3
Reuter Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 Amazing job on the video I'm not entirely sure though that physically correct refraction is possible with the rasterization technique that current game engines utilize. But surely there should be a feasible workaround to get rid of the infamous Oleg bar.
9./JG54Kirin Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 Nemesis' video leaves no room for speculation. The current view in the 190 is much too restricted. How this could be changed though is another question. There are many great ideas - and maybe we even get realistic refreaction modelling in the next generation of sims. 1
VR-DriftaholiC Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 Found this video and I don't think it's been shared: http://youtu.be/HESIq6g1ODo?t=8m22s Probably about as original of a cockpit view as you can get. 1
VR-DriftaholiC Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 Some more: http://youtu.be/PitkcjasJgc?t=1m59s
LLv34_Flanker Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 S! Well, even that old Soviet film showed better view than in BoS currently.
VR-DriftaholiC Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 Not sure why I can't edit so I'll keep posting back to back as I find these: http://youtu.be/1hnJBHs0O9Y?t=2m37s
6high Posted August 30, 2014 Posted August 30, 2014 Thank you so much for your appreciation guys! By now, as I read through all your gratifying comments, I know that it was well worth all the time, effort and energy I put into this. I just felt I had to do this, because it is an issue that has been bothering me since 2003..........and - oh yes - I love the Fw190!! Not a small feat, ending that age-old discussion. Great effort, alle achtung Nemesis!
Schwalbee Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Nemesis I thank you because today you have made me so happy and ended this decade old discussion. I'm just happy I was on the correct side this whole time :D
SvAF/F16_Goblin Posted August 31, 2014 Posted August 31, 2014 Well since the laws of physics is quite rigid the correct side was never in doubt!
II./JG27_Rich Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 Well that's it. I think we can go to court with this! Wonderful work Nemesis
IRRE_Belmont Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 There's something strange about this plane,I dunno why, but just by looking at real life pictures, it looks very massive , very impressive.. That would be the plane i would by any cost , avoid if i was a russian pilot during the time.. Maybe the design and the conception of this machine (Canons etc..) could explain this. It looked really ahead of it's time. *Forgive me if i say bullsh*t, but this particular plane always fascinated me since CFS 1 2
BlueVelvet Posted September 12, 2014 Posted September 12, 2014 Looks like noone is going to make any changes to fw 190. I would buy this plane but what we have now is far from it should be, despite all the evidences in this thread. Even compared to DCS dora this A3 makes an impression of a misunderstanding.
LLv34_Flanker Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 S! So funny how the thinner armored glass of Fw190A-3 looks thicker than the 65mm armored glass on IL-2 model.
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted September 13, 2014 Posted September 13, 2014 Don't want to go too far off topic but the IL-2 looks about right regarding the cockpit framing: Personally I hope they conduct further changes to it in future. It isn't too bad but aobviously not quite 100% matching either. What I'd especially like to see is incresed horizontal FoV threw the front window (by making the bars thinner). It's not too late to hope for it.
=V=Heromant Posted December 20, 2014 Posted December 20, 2014 Don't want to go too far off topic but the IL-2 looks about right regarding the cockpit framing: Personally I hope they conduct further changes to it in future. It isn't too bad but aobviously not quite 100% matching either. What I'd especially like to see is incresed horizontal FoV threw the front window (by making the bars thinner). It's not too late to hope for it. In the top photo is no bulletproof glass. Only imitation.
JG4_Nemesis Posted January 30, 2015 Author Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Update 3: I've established contact to noone less than the legendary id Software developer Legend John Carmack (creator of Doom, Quake, ect...) and asked him how to model such a refraction effect without raytracing. It's a honor for me to speak to him! Here's what I've learned: Nemesis: "Hi John! Is it possible to calculate refraction of light through armored glass in real time? check:Fw190 Windscreen /youtube" John Carmack: "Pretty easy to get quite close, but you would need ray tracing to get it exactly right with glass that isn't completely planar." fortunately, the Fw190 Windscreen is completely planar, and shaped like a simple cuboid box! Nemesis: "John, how to model refraction of a rectangular cuboid armor glass without raytracing? I need help on that one...any how-to?" John Carmack: "The refraction can be baked into a projection matrix. Draw outside the window with this, clear depth, draw inside normally." John Carmack: "Actually calculating the projection matrix will be a math chore." Now thats good news for us flight simmers who have been waiting for more than a decade for such a great effect in real time WITHOUT large strain on the CPU/GPU. Devs? It's your turn!! Show us of what you're made of, and create the best there is on the planet for us pilots! Heck, I would even pay extra money just to have that windscreen fixed :D Edited January 30, 2015 by I/JG27_Nemesis 8
unreasonable Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 @Nemesis - not that I understand any of that, but it would be v. cool if this problem could finally be banished from the world of flight sims. (Although we would have to find another topic to obsess over for years). The only thing I have left is one nagging worry. I know that light refracts because the speed of light is different in the air and in the glass (in this example). Using the linked marching soldiers analogy it is clear that the specific angle of refraction is a function of the angle of attack of the wave front on the boundary between media and speeds in each media. But if you think of an individual photon that you have detected so that it is in its "particle" form rather than its "wave" form, why should the change of speed at the media boundary change it's direction? I can think of only one intuitive answer, but it seems a bit circular. Since you are obviously into physics and have a skill for simple explanation, I wonder if you know the answer, or think the question is just ill formed?
silvergun Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 Very good research Nemesis, I want to see in action right now.
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 NIce to see you're still at it, Nemesis, but i fear their intentions are clearly different. While it's not worth discussing the future development of BoS until Monday I have the feeling the shift will move to more content rather than fixes and enhencements like this (whcih indeed would be totally outstanding and on graphicly highly respectable feauture). Maybe there is a way to make this work with the game engine without eliminating several frames and I hope the devs are convinceable if so. While the current windscreen is alot nicer than before it's still not the real deal (this counts for every plane ingame to varying extent in te end).
1CGS Han Posted February 1, 2015 1CGS Posted February 1, 2015 How much FPS you're ready to pay for that? A half of your performance - is it a good price for that? No, in next life. 1
JtD Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 Half the performance? Does refraction change flight models?
JtD Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 I understood that, back in Il-2 days FM calculations (and other element) had a significant impact on PC performance, depending on your system, graphics weren't necessarily the bottleneck. It is interesting that this is not the case in BoS.
1CGS Han Posted February 1, 2015 1CGS Posted February 1, 2015 Flight Model (plus tanks, AAA, AI planes and so on) calculations may slow down the simulation thread - you will see "slow-motion" in this case, in other words in this case the PC CPU will not be awailable to maintain x1 time scale of physical world modelling. Graphic features are calculating in graphics thread and lack of graphic performance can be seen as loss of Frame Rate (FPS). BoS is a multithread game. We have reflections now, you can see them on plane glossy surfaces. But there are many "cheats and hacks" performed to make them not too hurt for FPS. And MIRROR in your cockpit can't be done by same technology - detalization, resolution, view range of image in mirror will be not enough for usability. This why other games have a special option for resolution of mirrors. Top resolution is cool in them, but performance is falling down dramatically. Same situation with refraction. Refraction is possible, but both ways are very hurt for FPS if you want to have a good resolution in your "thick window" baceuse render algorythms becomes several times more complex in this case. Nothing unknown here, all approaches of such features realization are known a long time ago. But flight simulator is loading GPU close to limit allready due to long-ranges of view, huge scene areas, high speeds and impossibility of "slicing" of the scene area. One day, may be. 1 2
JtD Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 Fluid slow motion due to physics calculation - interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
StG2_Manfred Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 A compromise could be just to make the bars thinner, couldn't it. 7
JG4_Nemesis Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 A compromise could be just to make the bars thinner, couldn't it. Should be possible with little effort considering the left and right side frames, because there's clear air behind them, but could be more challenging with the lower frame, cause the nose appears higher than it should - with glass not only the frame ("bar") but also the entire nose gets lowered. 1
JG4_Nemesis Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Update 4: I've exchanged the original un-cut video at the beginning of the first post to a cut version showing only the valuable in-Cockpit footage, this time with a slow-motion sequence showing us of what to expect in ReVi View in a real Fw190 Fighter. (this slow-motion sequence was merely 1 second long in the un-cut version, not allowing time to judge the historically correct visibility when aiming through the ReVi) Edited July 17, 2015 by I/JG27_Nemesis
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