F-86 and MiG-15 variants. Only the oldest F-86A and the newest MiG-15bis.

[303_Bies]

Why there is only the oldest F-86 and only the newest MiG-15? F-86A and MiG-15bis.
When both MiG-15bis and F-86E, with new engine and all-moving tail, entered combat in Korea in summer 1951, very first batch of F-86E fought even earlier, from spring 1951.

And in Chinese squadrons "bis" entered combat only late 1952.

 

F-86A had older weaker engine, no radar gunsight, old fixed non-moving tail. It was used during first months of the war and after initial few months they started to replace it with F-86E.

Basically all Fighter-Interceptory squadrons flying Sabres, were using F-86E by 1951.

The entire 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing at K-14 Kimpo Air Base (334th, 335th, and 336th Squadrons) and the 51st Fighter-Interceptor Wing at Suwon Air Base, K-13 (16th and 25th Fighter-Interceptor Squadrons), commanded by Francis Stanley 'Gabby' Gabreski, had already replaced their F-86A and F-80 and were flying F-86E by 1951.

 

Why not F-86A and MiG-15 for initial few month of the war - then in some DLC F-86E and MiG-15bis for mid-late war from summer 1951?

But only initial F86A and mid-late war MiG-15bis?

 

 

 

PS: Anyone remember?

Edited May 29 by 303_Bies

[Trooper117]

The devs have already explained their reasons on this, I haven't got time to find the related posts, no doubt someone will give you the link shortly...

[Jackfraser24]

I'm sure they'll do more variants of each some day soon.

[303_Bies]

36 minutes ago, Jackfraser24 said:

I'm sure they'll do more variants of each some day soon.

I hope so, though it should be F-86A and MiG-15 for the first few months of the war.

Then F-86E and MiG-15bis for the rest of the war.

Not initial F-86A and late war improved MiG-15bis.

[LukeFF]

We are modeling the A-5, which did have the capability to be fitted with a radar ranging gunsight. 

[BlackSix]

15 minutes ago, 303_Bies said:

I hope so, though it should be F-86A and MiG-15 for the first few months of the war.

Then F-86E and MiG-15bis for the rest of the war.

Not initial F-86A and late war improved MiG-15bis.

The MiG-15bis is not some kind of improved late-war aircraft. This is a common misconception. It is only an improvement over the regular MiG-15.

The MiG-15bis began to take part in combat as early as November 1950, and from December 3, 1950, MiG-15bis regiments began to be based at the forward airfield Antung (Andong). Our career begins on April 2, 1951, and we cannot do without this aircraft to demonstrate the actions of the Soviet Air Force.

[303_Bies]

Thx, and will you model F-86E later on? Some DLC or collector plane?

F-86E-1 fought already in spring 1951 and the game begins April 2, 1951.

 

(And original MiG-15, as IIRC Chinese and North Korean non-Soviet squadrons fought on original MiG-15 untill the late 1952)

Edited May 27 by 303_Bies

[ZPA_Malan]

5 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

The devs have already explained their reasons on this, I haven't got time to find the related posts, no doubt someone will give you the link shortly...

Here's what they said in the F-86 dev blog:  "The Korean War saw many modifications of the Sabre, including the F-86A-1 in the early stages, the F-86A-5 during the most intense period of the air war in 1951 (which is why we chose it for our simulator), and the F-86E and F-86F in the later stages."

 

But if the F-86E was in fact also seeing combat in spring 1951 at the outset of the campaign, I'm not sure what the reasoning is? Improved engines and all-moving tail seem like a big capability shift, analogous to Spit V -> Spit IX. Hopefully the F-86E becomes available reasonably soon after release either through modifications to the f-86A or as its own plane. Same with the two mig versions.

Edited May 27 by ZPA_Malan

[BlackSix]

8 hours ago, 303_Bies said:

Thx, and will you model F-86E later on? Some DLC or collector plane?

F-86E-1 fought already in spring 1951 and the game begins April 2, 1951.

 

(And original MiG-15, as IIRC Chinese and North Korean non-Soviet squadrons fought on original MiG-15 untill the late 1952)

About F-86, everything will be fine on this issue:

And yes, we really need a regular MiG-15 for the PLAAF and KPAF units until mid-autumn 1952, for the Soviet regiments from the second echelon until autumn 1951, for the training units. I'd really like this plane to appear someday.

[303_Bies]

3 hours ago, BlackSix said:

And yes, we really need a regular MiG-15 for the PLAAF and KPAF units until mid-autumn 1952, for the Soviet regiments from the second echelon until autumn 1951, for the training units. I'd really like this plane to appear someday.

 

Thanks, sunds great! Original MiG-15 would be awesome to simulate Chinese squadrons.

And what about the F-86? The "A" model was most numerous in 1951, it's true, but the "E" model was in combat as well, since spring 1951, replacing F-86A and F-80 in many Fighter-Interceptor Squadrons.

Maybe as collector plane later on?

[BlackSix]

9 minutes ago, 303_Bies said:

And what about the F-86? The "A" model was most numerous in 1951, it's true, but the "E" model was in combat as well, since spring 1951, replacing F-86A and F-80 in many Fighter-Interceptor Squadrons.

Maybe as collector plane later on?

At this point I've nothing to add to the information I provided in the link above.

[88rosomak]

Let be honest - I think that F-86E should be added from the very begining to eliminate any accusations of Russian bias.

Edited May 28 by 88rosomak

[Trooper117]

Let's be honest, the dev's are going to do what they need to do to try and keep to their schedules, plus I have a feeling other variants may surface once the game is released.

People have moaned about bias in the past about particular aircraft, and as time went on they got around to addressing it.

[88rosomak]

Story about elite Russian pilots flying best fighter jets vs. regular US pilots flying regular planes does not sound very chivalrous to me...

[Avimimus]

44 minutes ago, 88rosomak said:

Story about elite Russian pilots flying best fighter jets vs. regular US pilots flying regular planes does not sound very chivalrous to me...

 

They aren't really though:

 

- The Mig-15Bis is only slightly refined from the Mig-15 (and mainly in ways which don't impact combat). The variants are virtually identical.

 

- The F-86A they are modelling has an uprated engine and gunsight that makes it comparable to an F-86E (except for the all moving tailplane)... so these variants aren't that different from each other except at very high speeds.

 

- The Mig-15Bis and F-86A-5 were opponents during much of the Korean War. It is a historically accurate match-up and the best combination for the initial release.

 

In my opinion this is something an imagined grievance which is only made possible by a lack of understanding of the differences between the Mig-15/Mig-15Bis and the F-86A-5 (late)/F-86E. People need to relax and wait for the sim to release (and may well discover the F-86A-5 to be somewhat better than the Mig-15Bis when release happens). If the product is successful I wouldn't be surprised to see an F-86E or F-86F in a DLC - and we can then test and see if they are indeed better. I suspect I'll personally prefer fighting in the F-86A/E to the F-86F.

[Avimimus]

 

  

On 5/27/2025 at 3:08 PM, 303_Bies said:

And in Chinese squadrons "bis" entered combat only late 1952.

 

Just to re-iterate in case anyone missed it: The Mig-15Bis entered combat with Russian pilots first - followed by Chinese Mig-15 units. So the Mig-15 actually appeared in Korea after the Mig-15Bis. So, while the Mig-15Bis was used from the first appearance of the Mig-15 through to the end of the war, a decision to model the earlier production Mig-15 would have limited the sim to only the end stages of the war.

[303_Bies]

Yep, if collector planes will include F-86E, F-86F and MiG-15 all will be fine. I'm buying all the collectors anyway.

The only problem would be if we would stuck with only the best MiG-15bis and only the worst Sabre, even though by 1951 all US squadrons in Korea were flying F-86E.

Let's hope there will be the complete roster later on.

[LukeFF]

5 minutes ago, 303_Bies said:

Yep, if collector planes will include F-86E, F-86F and MiG-15 all will be fine. I'm buying all the collectors anyway.

The only problem would be if we would stuck with only the best MiG-15bis and only the worst Sabre, even though by 1951 all US squadrons in Korea were flying F-86E.

Let's hope there will be the complete roster later on.

 

Again, it's not the "worst Sabre." 🙂

[Trooper117]

As far as I'm aware, the MiG's always had an advantage in the early stages of the war, as most first hand accounts I have read stated that the MiG's had the height advantage, with the Sabre's always below... it wasn't until later improved versions of the Sabre allowed more parity in combat.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Again, it's not the "worst Sabre." 🙂

 

Yeah Luke!

 

Where is our F-86A-1?!

[BlitzPig_EL]

Some sage wisdom:  Never fly the A model of anything.

 

😁

[Bremspropeller]

17 hours ago, Avimimus said:

- The F-86A they are modelling has an uprated engine and gunsight that makes it comparable to an F-86E (except for the all moving tailplane)... so these variants aren't that different from each other except at very high speeds.

Trouble is, the stabilator is kinda the reason why the E-model Sabre wasn't completely outclassed by the MiG as it allowed non-reduced maneuverability up to and through the Mach. It reliably opened an exclusive flight regime to the Sabre with almost no restrictions (other than g and some wing-heaviness, which was controllable, though).

 

Not having the all moving tail will restrict the tactical capabilities of the airplane by quite a bit.

[Hoss]

On 5/27/2025 at 11:58 AM, 303_Bies said:

Thx, and will you model F-86E later on? Some DLC or collector plane?

F-86E-1 fought already in spring 1951 and the game begins April 2, 1951.

 

(And original MiG-15, as IIRC Chinese and North Korean non-Soviet squadrons fought on original MiG-15 untill the late 1952)

You will probably see it around the samtime as they build a carrier....

[Avimimus]

46 minutes ago, Hoss said:

You will probably see it around the samtime as they build a carrier....

 

That is my guess as well - if not earlier.

 

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

Trouble is, the stabilator is kinda the reason why the E-model Sabre wasn't completely outclassed by the MiG as it allowed non-reduced maneuverability up to and through the Mach. It reliably opened an exclusive flight regime to the Sabre with almost no restrictions (other than g and some wing-heaviness, which was controllable, though).

 

Not having the all moving tail will restrict the tactical capabilities of the airplane by quite a bit.

 

True. But that is mainly in situations where one is diving on an opponent (who often won't have seen you prior to the first pass)... definitely worthwhile, but not as essential as people might think - as that situation won't always come up. After the first or second turn enough speed will have been lost that it probably won't make that much of a difference. That said, I could be wrong and I look forward to (probably) trying out both!

[Bremspropeller]

It's not only for diving onto somebody. If you're high, you can easily escape the MiGs by just burying the nose and firewalling the throttle.

 

Normal cruise speeds at altitude would have you close to buffet onset (well, both stall and Mach) and just pointing the nose downwards can put you into a region where being able to pull the nose through can make all the difference. The F-86A won't be uncontrollable (it has a trimmable tail), but the E would have quite an edge here.

[Lofte]

On 5/27/2025 at 5:08 PM, 303_Bies said:

only initial F86A and mid-late war MiG-15bis?

The conspiracy of red developers against the free world, no doubt

[Hoss]

Has there been a list published of flyable planes in the initial release? 

Inquiring minds would like to know.....

[Avimimus]

28 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Has there been a list published of flyable planes in the initial release? 

Inquiring minds would like to know.....

 

No official list, but we've had some confirmations (although it isn't clear what will be included and what will be a Collector Plane). I've been collecting information on what has been confirmed in the following thread:

 

[Lord_Cool]

As it is anyone playing on the North Korean side is already going to have their work cut out with just one jet (MiG-15bis) and two prop fighters (La-11, Yak-9P) facing off against 4 jets, F-86A-5, F-84E, F-80C, and F9F-2 and two prop fighters (F-51 and F4U). Also, it's not just the F-86 variants which I would hope to see released eventually, but other improved variants like the F9F-5 Panther which appeared in Korea by late 1952 I think? and had the larger and more powerful Pratt & Whitney J48-P-6A engine.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The F 84, F 80 and the Panther will pose no issue for the Mig-15bis, it totally outclasses them.

[Avimimus]

13 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The F 84, F 80 and the Panther will pose no issue for the Mig-15bis, it totally outclasses them.

 

I'm not so sure. Firepower shouldn't be an issue for any of these types. In a turning fight the unswept designs should have the edge. It is only when the Mig-15 makes use of speed or the vertical that they should be in trouble. The Mig will also usually be outnumbered.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

.The Mig will also usually be outnumbered.

 

 

I think you underestimate the popularity of the Mig.  Online it will be the overwhelming choice of the "e sports" online ace stat whores.

Be sure.

[Avimimus]

21 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I think you underestimate the popularity of the Mig.  Online it will be the overwhelming choice of the "e sports" online ace stat whores.

Be sure.

 

I think you underestimate the fact that the jet I'm most excited about is the F-84... but, yes, I see your point. For a certain segment of the online crowd a flight-simulator will always only have two or three aircraft... and in this game those aircraft will be the Mig-15Bis and the F-86A-5 (or F-86E if we get that).

[303_Bies]

Yes, i remember flying F-84 as a kid in MiG Alley, attacking Korean tanks and trucks columns. An old sim, one of the first realistic simulators.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Avimimus, I too am excited about the F84.  It had a good record as a ground pounder in Korea, but a Mig flown by one of our sim pilots with decades of sim experience will eat the F-84 like a tasty snack.  Sure there will be some lucky kills of Migs by it, just as I have shot down some AI 109 F2s with the I-153, but against a competent human operator, you will have no chance.  That's all I'm saying.

Edited June 1 by BlitzPig_EL

[AEthelraedUnraed]

8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

competent human operator

You have great faith in humanity.

[LukeFF]

On 5/31/2025 at 2:40 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Panther

 

Royce Williams would like a word with you. 😛

[BlitzPig_EL]

You will find instances where just about any plane with a gun on it shot down a Mig 15, including a Corsair and a Sea Fury, but in the artificial and constrained environment of online sim engagements, real world circumstances like low time pilots in the case of the NKAF, or PLA, won't be as frequent.  We have so many "pilots" with 20+ years of almost daily combat seat time, that will totally skew the real world outcomes.  Single player will be different of course, as mission makers can control the skill levels of the AI flown aircraft, which is the only way to achieve "real world" outcomes.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Royce must have been an Adderall addict vs 7 Steam sale suckers.

[BlitzPig_EL]

In the sim, it will be like facing the VVS "volunteer" pilots all the time, instead of the North Korean and Chinese pilots.  Just my take on it.

 

Personally, I will mostly be down in the weeds in a Corsair, Mustang, or F-84, blowing stuff up.