Impossible to have a single Keybind ini file

[BOO]

One of the big complaints about the game is the convoluted set up (not so convoluted when you get your head around things but for a newcommer, it is daunting). 

 

Within the keybind settings however are two specific secific and mutually exclusive items that prevent a user producing a single config that will run anything in the game. As such, one is always have to pay heed to what you are going to fly before entering the mission. Discovering you have the wrong ini active once in a mission is not impossible to correct (at least in SP) but is, nonetheless, a likley unnecessary embuggerance. 

 

The two offenders are: -

 

the separate binds for WEP and Boost Cut Off

The the game's inversion of the key binds for prop pitch, dependent on the aircraft

 

I can only speak for myself but WEP and Boost Cut arre always bound to the same switch on my throttle as, in effect, they do a simlar thing. As such it makes sense from a muscle memory POV.  I dont think there is a single aircraft that shares both Boost Cut and WEP so making the two mutually exclusive in terms of sharing a keybind mean swapping ini's. 

 

With prop pitch it appears aircraft with constant pitch and two stage props share one convention (in this example "fine being acheived by an "up" press) whereas full manual and early automatated prop engines (largely the DBs) reversed this (so "fine" is now acheived with a down press).  In the past this was a fairly easy thing to get your head around however, with the introduction of later war axis aircraft with constant pitch features, its yet another thing to think about. again it comes down to muscle memory and QOL for the user but not having to swap an ini because I jumped out of an JU88 A1 and took an A5 would be great. 

 

 

[Hiuuz]

The keybinding option screen is one definitely needs a reshaping after the graphical update! You can bind the same key to different functions if they are in separate category, but can't in the same. But until TFS not saying: "hey guys we are reworking the UI, we need your thoughts about that", better to learn live with the wierd one we have now.

[BOO]

34 minutes ago, Hiuuz said:

The keybinding option screen is one definitely needs a reshaping after the graphical update! You can bind the same key to different functions if they are in separate category, but can't in the same. But until TFS not saying: "hey guys we are reworking the UI, we need your thoughts about that", better to learn live with the wierd one we have now.

 

I little re-ordering perhaps but its actually not as bad as some feel that it is.It just looks a little long in the tooth.  Things like "give back control" intead of having 2 "Extenal View" are marked improvements from the last round of setting up I did back in the day as is the culling of the UI thinking something had 8 engines. Some items are not in logical order for sure and some could have better descriptions but that about all.

 

I know there has been some griping in the past about having to save AND apply the ini but, really, it aint rocket science. 

 

To set up everything for a Steamdeck (including making icons) took me a total of 2 days from basically forgetting eveything and having to read every Chucks guide and TFS manual. Without the icons it would have been half a day. Without a SteamDeck probably about 30 mins.

 

Looking at how it stands for now I think 2 configs is all that required (swapping the Boost Cut and WEP as well as inverting the pitc) but having just one  "set and forget" would be ideal.  

 

 

[FTC_Rostic]

If it ever going to be redone, it should be done exactly like in DCS.

 

Until that moment multiple .ini files are absolutely working solution. Have no problem to LOAD new controls from .ini file in SP and MP. The only issue I have with this, is when I want change a key not related to aircraft, I have to change it in every .ini file I have (luckily just two currently).

[PO_Baldrick]

49 minutes ago, FTC_Rostic said:

If it ever going to be redone, it should be done exactly like in DCS.

 

Until that moment multiple .ini files are absolutely working solution. Have no problem to LOAD new controls from .ini file in SP and MP. The only issue I have with this, is when I want change a key not related to aircraft, I have to change it in every .ini file I have (luckily just two currently).

With DCS if you have a lot of modules then changing your control for say gear operation involves changing the control for every single module. So I use a third party tool, Joystick Profiler or JoyPro, to manage assigning controls to multiple aircraft which I find invaluable.

 

Ideally I think you need to have a single control set that applies defaults to everything and the option to make overrides for individual aircraft as needed (e.g. prop pitch, WEP and Boost Cut Off as per the first post).

 

Regarding third party utilities you can do this pretty much with things like Joystick Gremlin and having modes for the aircraft groups to reassign specific controls as needed without having to worry about changing other keys in multiple ini files.

[BOO]

1 hour ago, FTC_Rostic said:

If it ever going to be redone, it should be done exactly like in DCS.

 

Until that moment multiple .ini files are absolutely working solution. Have no problem to LOAD new controls from .ini file in SP and MP. The only issue I have with this, is when I want change a key not related to aircraft, I have to change it in every .ini file I have (luckily just two currently).

 

I agree its only two ini required really. But with 3 alterations, it could be one. And one less thing for newcomers to worry about. 

 

Although I dont think the level of compexity CloD has really warrants a full DCS style redo, having airframes recognise an associated ini file would be a good alternative. 

[PO_Baldrick]

Allowing multiple inputs for single controls would be nice to have too.

 

For instance having controls for gear/flaps both on the left or right depending upon aircraft. Hardly essential but it adds to immersion. It can be done with third party apps (e.g. assigning the same key strokes or virtual buttons to multiple controls) but always neater not to have to resort to third party apps if possible.

[BOO]

26 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

Allowing multiple inputs for single controls would be nice to have too.

 

For instance having controls for gear/flaps both on the left or right depending upon aircraft. Hardly essential but it adds to immersion. It can be done with third party apps (e.g. assigning the same key strokes or virtual buttons to multiple controls) but always neater not to have to resort to third party apps if possible.

 Yup - muliple bindings - another way around the issue (well its not really an issue more a QOL thing). 

 

Ive been slowly redoing all my long lost Clod set ups over the past few months in readyness for the inglorious day I finally am able to sim again. And this has been a fortunate thing because Clod does take time to set up correctly if you choose to go down rabbitholes. I do see how newcomers get frustrated. 

 

 

[Volant_Eagle]

Having the game automatically store a separate .ini file for each aircraft, and use that file automatically when you spawn in that specific type, would be an awesome solution in my opinion.

 

If such a system were to be implemented though, it could be extremely frustrating for new players if it wasn't made painfully obvious that it works that way.

 

Having a big bold option on the top of the controls menu to switch between "one single control profile for all aircraft" mode, and "Save control settings for only the selected aircraft" mode, would be highly advisable.

[batmacumba]

14 hours ago, Hiuuz said:

The keybinding option screen is one definitely needs a reshaping after the graphical update! You can bind the same key to different functions if they are in separate category, but can't in the same. But until TFS not saying: "hey guys we are reworking the UI, we need your thoughts about that", better to learn live with the wierd one we have now.

 

I would certainly love to hear everyone's thoughts about that. To me, the priority would be to first get the basics right, then think about new features like different profiles. Please, share your observations about the Controls page, the UI as a whole is a different challenge.

[No.54_Reddog]

The last time I tried CLOD and assigning controls, the biggest issue was the massive lag between clicking the button and the game registering it. Has this now been fixed? (Have redownloaded the Beta but not had time to fire it up yet due to modding for FS)

[PO_Baldrick]

21 minutes ago, No.54_Reddog said:

The last time I tried CLOD and assigning controls, the biggest issue was the massive lag between clicking the button and the game registering it. Has this now been fixed? (Have redownloaded the Beta but not had time to fire it up yet due to modding for FS)

No lag that I can see now.

[PO_Baldrick]

3 hours ago, batmacumba said:

 

I would certainly love to hear everyone's thoughts about that. To me, the priority would be to first get the basics right, then think about new features like different profiles. Please, share your observations about the Controls page, the UI as a whole is a different challenge.

The challenge is to cater for those who expect their controls to be set from the go by recognising popular hardware and those with simpits and custom made button boxes who desire the flexibility to set the controls however they want and most certainly do not want the sim messing about with things trying to help!

 

In my experience MS Flight Sim is very clunky and has a low limit of devices, IL2:Box numbering of devices makes for difficulties if those numbers change (and knowing what Joystick 3 is) and its limits of devices is also a pain.

 

DCS is very flexible (although the trade off is it is a bit unfriendly for new users) and great for mapping individual aircraft though that can be a pain if you have a lot of aircraft and decide to change a common control like gear down for instance. I personally use a 3rd party Joystick Profiler for DCS controls because of this.

 

I recently tried BMS which seems to work ok but that was with just the one aircraft.

 

There seem to be pros and cons with all of them, I don't find CLIFFS particularly good or bad in comparison.

 

One advantage of DCS is you can choose the device to set the control for. If you have a device continually registering a button press/axis movement when you try to assign another control in CLIFFS (and the others) it will always assign the first controls registered including the one you don't want! Being able to select the device like DCS would help, however, if you have three Arduino devices they are all labelled the same so have to guess which one.

 

I would like more categorisation of aircraft controls in CLIFFS into things like flight control, engine management, weapons, navigation etc. It is a big list to scroll through currently.

 

As mentioned being able to set multiple controls to a single command (be it from multiple devices or a single one) would give some flexibility. Having separate profiles would be great especially with the option to retain defaults for all controls not specifically set for a given aircraft to avoid repeating mapping across multiple profiles every time you change your mind!

 

 

[BOO]

@batmacumba

 

Having just gone through the rebinding of controls after serveral years (and, as such, now dispossessed of that latent knowledge of all things Clod one picks up over time that enables you to second guess the game) here are my "things" GUI wise that could possibly be looked at without doing a major graphical rewrite.

 

General Section

 

In Game Time Section could move to this section?

 

Hatch/canopy controls belong in aircraft section alongside the window control items

Illumination belongs in aircraft section alongside the other instrument control items

Stopwatch/Clock belongs in aircraft section alongside the other instrument control items

Fire Current Weapon belongs in Turret section

Reload is not fully explained as it affects some aircraft (Beaufighter?), but I think most gunnery positions and the 110s auto reload

Toggle AI control – not fully explained -poss SP thing 

Alternate Voltamperemeter Mode – what even is it?

Map – should be in views section - maybe not?

 

Aircraft Section

 

Impeller commands -better explain that these are for BR20 only

Radiator Cut off - note its for 109s only?

Fire extinguisher (Functional? – if not note or specify aircraft it does work in)

Feather Prop – specify which aircraft its works for

Toggle Horizontal Stab - ?? - dont know what this does

Lock tail skid – rename Lock Tail skid/wheel

Jump between pilot and selected position – belongs in Views

Engine Selection section– place section under “Start Engines" in list order

Start/Stop Motor compressor-  (is this a BR20 thing again? - better explanation or reposition in menu?)

Cylinder head Section – place with other engine instrument items

Altimeter, Gyro and Course setter and Fuel Guage– Place under Autopilot section in disinct section of instruments?

Anemometer – explanation required - what aircraft?

Mouse Control – better explanation (holding button allows mouse to move some cockpit clickables)

 

Views (Rename Player Views?)

 

Release Position (Add “Returns current pos to AI control) – can this be disabled for pilot position to avoid accidental alien abduction?

Toggle Mirror needs to be in Aircraft section

Raise Seat - better in Aircraft section?

 

Camera

 

Interact with Interface Overlay – add descriptor “(in game windows etc)” and move to Views menu?

Toggle Independent mode - Move to Views menu?

Toggle Track IR – is this still needed?

 

Comms – Rename In game AI Comms menus

 

Chat

 

Send Message - -descriptor “Opens chat window if enabled”

 

Looking at the menu further - it could be possible to add suggestions of keybinds for certain keys or assign them as a default (Im thinking the use of the Number Keypad for the bombsight control - if this already a thing forgive me)

 

An abilty for the game recognise more than one modifer AND a key would also be a boon (ie ALT+SHIFT+1).  At present, once youve assigned crew positions, the fuel cocks and some bombsight stuff  there is little left for stuff like Teamspeak/Discord Hotkeys that wouldnt interfere with the game. Multiple key variations for each bind would also be good.

 

Cheers

 

 

Edited January 20 by BOO

[Hiuuz]

30 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

The challenge is to cater for those who expect their controls to be set from the go by recognising popular hardware and those with simpits and custom made button boxes who desire the flexibility to set the controls however they want and most certainly do not want the sim messing about with things trying to help!

 

In my experience MS Flight Sim is very clunky and has a low limit of devices, IL2:Box numbering of devices makes for difficulties if those numbers change (and knowing what Joystick 3 is) and its limits of devices is also a pain.

 

DCS is very flexible (although the trade off is it is a bit unfriendly for new users) and great for mapping individual aircraft though that can be a pain if you have a lot of aircraft and decide to change a common control like gear down for instance. I personally use a 3rd party Joystick Profiler for DCS controls because of this.

 

I recently tried BMS which seems to work ok but that was with just the one aircraft.

 

There seem to be pros and cons with all of them, I don't find CLIFFS particularly good or bad in comparison.

 

One advantage of DCS is you can choose the device to set the control for. If you have a device continually registering a button press/axis movement when you try to assign another control in CLIFFS (and the others) it will always assign the first controls registered including the one you don't want! Being able to select the device like DCS would help, however, if you have three Arduino devices they are all labelled the same so have to guess which one.

 

I would like more categorisation of aircraft controls in CLIFFS into things like flight control, engine management, weapons, navigation etc. It is a big list to scroll through currently.

 

As mentioned being able to set multiple controls to a single command (be it from multiple devices or a single one) would give some flexibility. Having separate profiles would be great especially with the option to retain defaults for all controls not specifically set for a given aircraft to avoid repeating mapping across multiple profiles every time you change your mind!

 

 

You pointed out clearly why difficult to organize controls, but taking apart the aircraft category to more specified categories would be my first thought too.

 

Mentioning different joysticks and custom made control devices opens a big dark room. Eg. with landing gear or flaps. The current option for gear up/down works fine if you would like to use single buttons for it. It works by the Spit where are only two phisical state of the handle and by the 109 too where are three state (neutral middle) so you can push the button twice: up->neutral->down. Most of the cases it works, but if you have custom made controls with also a three fix position, than you would need 3 commands for every state of the handle both in real life and in game, if we speak about the 109. But there is the "raise/lower gear manualy" command what require to continously push the button to raise or lower the gear, so with this function the three fixed position real life control also works as needed. This one example shows that first we need to discuss how we would like to control our planes, and what possibilities the programmers have at TFS. So I'm open to discuss 😁

[PO_Baldrick]

47 minutes ago, Hiuuz said:

Mentioning different joysticks and custom made control devices opens a big dark room. Eg. with landing gear or flaps. The current option for gear up/down works fine if you would like to use single buttons for it. It works by the Spit where are only two phisical state of the handle and by the 109 too where are three state (neutral middle) so you can push the button twice: up->neutral->down. Most of the cases it works, but if you have custom made controls with also a three fix position, than you would need 3 commands for every state of the handle both in real life and in game, if we speak about the 109. But there is the "raise/lower gear manualy" command what require to continously push the button to raise or lower the gear, so with this function the three fixed position real life control also works as needed. This one example shows that first we need to discuss how we would like to control our planes, and what possibilities the programmers have at TFS. So I'm open to discuss 😁

I have a lot of devices so probably am at the more extreme end of wishes, plus I am experienced with third party utilities like Joy2Key, Joystick Gremlin, UCR etc. so can do pretty much what I wish to using these utilities. For example I was able to make a gated sim racing gear lever control the Hurricane gear and flaps lever whilst still retaining a more conventional lever for other aircraft, even though there is only one command internally within CLIFFS.

 

I think there is a risk that in getting CLIFFS to do everything within its UI that the ultimate flexibility becomes daunting to new users. Maybe we need a standard and advanced control setting screens?

[Hiuuz]

30 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

Maybe we need a standard and advanced control setting screens?

Hmm. That is an option what I didn't think about yet, but I like it! Maybe if  TFS consider this. We will see.

 

Regards to custom controls, I always tried to keep my arduino controllers within the Windows old standards, 32 buttons, 1 hat, 8 axis and so that I don't need any third party program. I always tried to keep everything simple.

 

Regards to Hurricane, I tried to bind gears and flaps to two axes. So when I pulled those to the middle the ingame handle also goes back to the "neutral" position.

Edited January 20 by Hiuuz

[BOO]

51 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

Maybe we need a standard and advanced control setting screens?

 

I think what we have now is probably enough - for those that want more, there's 3rd party apps. 

 

Coming back to the gear and flap neutral, simply having prevous and next bound to a 2 or 3 way makes a perfectly useable "to neutral" by switching in the opposite direction after operation. On a three way, if i wanted more, id use Target or some other application to summon a shifted state of previous/next or possibly toggle to the middle position. I believe the issue with the bindings at present isnt so much about whats available as the limitiation of how each can be bound to only a single Modifer+Key and one key bind selection only.  

[PO_Baldrick]

6 hours ago, BOO said:

I think what we have now is probably enough - for those that want more, there's 3rd party apps.

It is an interesting discussion. During the whole testing process and looking at the history of CLIFFS avoiding 3rd party apps has been a general advice to help avoid crashes. Personally I feel comfortable using Joystick Gremlin and/or Joy2Key with the recent builds without issue.

 

Joystick Gremlin especially allows me to do anything I wish to do with CLIFFS. It can set modes for specific aircraft to reallocate controls whilst leaving all the other ones untouched, so no need to maintain separate config files. It can merge axis for using race pedals as rudders, allow for multiple controls to use the same virtual button or axis which can then be assigned in CLIFFS. Convert axis to buttons (e.g. using a Logitech Quad lever to operate a control that only allows button input). Perform mouse operations so you can use rotaries, buttons, slew etc. to move the mouse around, click mouse buttons or mimic wheel movement. Use the same button (e.g. HOTAS Hat) to perform different controls depending on length of time presses or multiple presses. Add a volume control, the list goes on.

 

Creating all that in CLIFFS would be be like recreating Joystick Gremlin from scratch and one would assume a pretty big job when the capability already exists.

 

So maybe having a preferred list of 3rd party apps which are compatibility tested with new builds by the beta testers and some volunteers to write up some tutorials (or videos in these modern times I guess)?

 

Personally I am pretty content doing all that stuff but I don't think that I am where the focus is probably needed, more around categorisation as @BOO lists in the post above, making it accessible and more obvious where controls are. Finding stuff like how to turn off the mouse cursor, how to toggle labels etc. which all seem a bit obscure (mouse cursor is independent mode under camera, labels toggle is under chat).

[Roover]

A shift key like DCS would be awesome. Double the keybinding of your hotas.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[BOO]

3 hours ago, Roover said:

A shift key like DCS would be awesome. Double the keybinding of your hotas.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Its been a minute and Im still setting up things without controllers after 4 years away from the game. So there is no way to have a Shifted hotas button press presently? 

 

Previously I has some way OTT Target profiles with macros and all sorts - I was hoping to avoid having to use programs like Target or Joy2Key if possible.

 

 

[Roover]

Not that I know. No shift key presently.