Shadow quality - can you spot the difference in these test images from TFS?

January 5

For anyone reading this thread from scratch, this was initially in the 109 screenshots, so it's been moved to it's own thread. The discussion was initially about the Herring Bone stripes, but then included shadow quality. The shadow quality test/screenshots, appear later in the thread. With that said, this is how the discussion began............

I'm hoping when they finally get to work on the lighting and shaders, they can finally eradicate the "herring bone" striped shadows. Then we can show even more beauty in the close-ups.

Edited January 14 by Mysticpuma

January 5

Me too MP. It's only me talking but it really could look beautiful especially in the mornings and evenings

January 6

12 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I'm hoping when they finally get to work on the lighting and shaders, they can finally eradicate the "herring bone" striped shadows. Then we can show even more beauty in the close-ups.

Found some examples. Contrary to unpopular belief, the stripes that can be viewed on the skins, aren't down to graphics settings.

January 7

rgr

January 7

On 1/6/2025 at 12:16 AM, Mysticpuma said:

Found some examples. Contrary to unpopular belief, the stripes that can be viewed on the skins, aren't down to graphics settings.

I looked this up. I'm thinking this is the "shadow acne" effect explained here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2FHHU50ktQ

January 7

1 hour ago, batmacumba said:

I looked this up. I'm thinking this is the "shadow acne" effect explained here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2FHHU50ktQ

It looks ... er ... um ... simple. 😢

Edited January 7 by major_setback

January 7

2 hours ago, batmacumba said:

I looked this up. I'm thinking this is the "shadow acne" effect explained here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2FHHU50ktQ

Well, I am glad that after over a decade of mentioning it (not just to TF, but on forums and being told it was my graphics settings).....finally @batmacumba you actually know that it's an issue in game.

Firstly, thank you. Thank you for knowing what it is and actually identifying it, but secondly for confirming that it's an issue.

My next question therefore is, can it be solved, either by Truesky lighting, one of your shader guys or will it need programming.....but mainly, do you think it can be fixed?

This alone, when it comes to screenshots, is one reason why it's a tough sell on forums because of the 'shadow acne', which just detracts from how grat this game still looks.

Not often I'll say this, but awesome input...cheers, Mysticpuma

January 7

3 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Well, I am glad that after over a decade of mentioning it (not just to TF, but on forums and being told it was my graphics settings).....finally @batmacumba you actually know that it's an issue in game.

Firstly, thank you. Thank you for knowing what it is and actually identifying it, but secondly for confirming that it's an issue.

My next question therefore is, can it be solved, either by Truesky lighting, one of your shader guys or will it need programming.....but mainly, do you think it can be fixed?

This alone, when it comes to screenshots, is one reason why it's a tough sell on forums because of the 'shadow acne', which just detracts from how grat this game still looks.

Not often I'll say this, but awesome input...cheers, Mysticpuma

Of course it can be fixed! The video even shows a perfectly implementable solution.

But the first step would be to confirm this is the phenomenon we're seeing. This shadow acne effect is reduced when the light source is perpendicular to the surface. Can anyone take some screenshots with the sun at noon position and the aircraft leveled out? Then take a screenshot of the same scene during sunset or sunrise?

January 7

24 minutes ago, batmacumba said:

Of course it can be fixed! The video even shows a perfectly implementable solution.

But the first step would be to confirm this is the phenomenon we're seeing. This shadow acne effect is reduced when the light source is perpendicular to the surface. Can anyone take some screenshots with the sun at noon position and the aircraft leveled out? Then take a screenshot of the same scene during sunset or sunrise?

Standby

January 8

1 hour ago, batmacumba said:

Of course it can be fixed! The video even shows a perfectly implementable solution.

But the first step would be to confirm this is the phenomenon we're seeing. This shadow acne effect is reduced when the light source is perpendicular to the surface. Can anyone take some screenshots with the sun at noon position and the aircraft leveled out? Then take a screenshot of the same scene during sunset or sunrise?

Early morning:

Midday:

Late:

January 8

So the stripes are still there in the midday shots, less noticeable, but they are there.

Thought I'd add the 3 simple missions used for this:

Shadow mission.rar

January 8

Great screenshots, MP, thanks. It's clear to me that at noon the stripes are greatly reduced, especially in the non-sloped surfaces. So, it's safe to say this is the shadow acne effect. We can also see some ugly shadow artifacts there at the #5 screenshot, for example. These actually bother me more than the stripes.

It seems to me we have to implement these techniques to prevent this problem. Rostic also suggested adding the option to increase the shadow map resolution, which helped, but did not solve the issue.

What do you guys think is the priority on this? Would you accept even more delay to the VU/VR in order to implement this? I think it should probably be done after the release. I can implement the option to increase the shadow map resolution easily, as a stopgap for now, but as I said, it will only reduce the problem, not solve it.

January 8

25 minutes ago, batmacumba said:

We can also see some ugly shadow artifacts there at the #5 screenshot, for example. These actually bother me more than the stripes.

Do you mean the semi-transparent propeller blades?

January 8

20 minutes ago, batmacumba said:

What do you guys think is the priority on this? Would you accept even more delay to the VU/VR in order to implement this? I think it should probably be done after the release. I can implement the option to increase the shadow map resolution easily, as a stopgap for now, but as I said, it will only reduce the problem, not solve it.

I've lived with em for 10 years - I can tolerate them a while longer. As a flat earther though Id certainly tolerate a delay to VR 🙂

Though I guess its not really down to us thought, its down to Buzzsaw.

January 8

11 minutes ago, major_setback said:

Do you mean the semi-transparent propeller blades?

This right here. Is it the shadow of the propeller? Idk.

January 8

33 minutes ago, batmacumba said:

We can also see some ugly shadow artifacts there at the #5 screenshot, for example. These actually bother me more than the stripes.

Those are not exactly artifacts. That is an expected result of low shadow map resolution and low samples count (about 16 or less) and absence of code that smooth that shadow. I'm not a 3d programmer, but there is definitely some complicated techniques of smoothing that (other then simply increasing number of samples by the cost of FPS).

We have something like this

But we want something like this:

By the way, last picture looks very much like in DCS.

Examples take from this article:

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/intermediate-tutorials/tutorial-16-shadow-mapping/

January 8

16 minutes ago, batmacumba said:

This right here. Is it the shadow of the propeller? Idk.

No. I thought you meant picture 5 of the last lot of pictures; the one showing the propeller hub. No, that looks like a shadow of the aerial or canopy frame.

Edited January 8 by major_setback

January 8

1 hour ago, batmacumba said:

It seems to me we have to implement these techniques to prevent this problem. Rostic also suggested adding the option to increase the shadow map resolution, which helped, but did not solve the issue.

What do you guys think is the priority on this? Would you accept even more delay to the VU/VR in order to implement this? I think it should probably be done after the release. I can implement the option to increase the shadow map resolution easily, as a stopgap for now, but as I said, it will only reduce the problem, not solve it.

Ability to simply increase shadow map resolution is a nice to have. At least locked to 16k not 4k like now. In "conf.ini" user can go down from 5 to 1 in parameter "ShadowMapSize=5" but not up.

About delaying VR/VU release...
I prefer earlier release of VR/VU with implemented tasks in TFS 6.0 announcement and bunch of few simple to implement feature requests. But well tested and polished. If new task takes more then two days to implement and/or more then two days to test, left it for the future. Like ability to increase shadow map resolution as stop gap to reduce problem for those who has powerful GPU. Any new feature that is not a critical game stopper have to be planned for next major release. Like True Water or ground tessellation those also were promised many years ago as a possibility for Visual Update, but no longer in the list of features to be released in TFS 6.0.
.

Also, pixelated distant clouds in True Sky shown on a lot of screenshots is much more significant issue.

Edited January 8 by FTC_Rostic

January 8

4 minutes ago, FTC_Rostic said:

Ability to simply increase shadow map resolution is a nice to have. At least locked to 16k not 4k like now. In "conf.ini" user can go down from 5 to 1 in parameter "ShadowMapSize=5" but not up.

About delaying VR/VU release...
I prefer earlier release of VR/VU with implemented tasks in TFS 6.0 announcement and bunch of few simple to implement feature requests. But well tested and polished. If new task takes more then two days to implement and/or more then two days to test, left it for the future. Like ability to increase shadow map resolution as stop gap to reduce problem for those who has powerful GPU. Any new feature that is not a critical game stopper have to be planned for next major release. Like True Water or ground tessellation those also were promised many years ago as a possibility for Visual Update, but no longer in the list of features to be released in TFS 6.0.

Perfect, I agree with everything.

I'll try to get some screenshots for us of the 8k and 16k resolutions so we can know what it would look like.

January 9

10 hours ago, batmacumba said:

What do you guys think is the priority on this? Would you accept even more delay to the VU/VR in order to implement this? I think it should probably be done after the release. I can implement the option to increase the shadow map resolution easily, as a stopgap for now, but as I said, it will only reduce the problem, not solve it.

Well, as others have said, we've lived with it for at least a decade, so why delay the VU/VR, at least now it's finally be agreed it is an issue, so I'll take that as a victory

The other point to note is that you actually know what it is and how to fix it, it's not an unknown commodity that will be time intensive trying to work out what it is, so again, that's another step along the route to fixing it.

The slight downside to not fixing it prior to release, is, after all the time and effort to create a 'visual update', there is a known visual issue, with solution, and it just means any video that @Soto_Cinematics releases showcasing all the great new content and effects, will be marred by this?

Either way, you have found the issue, agreed it is an issue and know how to fix the issue....what could be better? Just please don't forget it, if it doesn't make the release date

Cheers, Mysticpuma

Edited January 9 by Mysticpuma

January 9

9 hours ago, FTC_Rostic said:

Also, pixelated distant clouds in True Sky shown on a lot of screenshots is much more significant issue.

I have heard they have managed to find that issue and resolve it (but hasn't been confirmed yet)

January 9

12 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I have heard they have managed to find that issue and resolve it (but hasn't been confirmed yet)

Can't wait to see improvements in BETA

January 10

wrong thread

Edited January 14 by Mysticpuma

January 10

In the Visible Update Beta videos on YT the lines seem to be not present. Can a beta tester confirm this?

I must say after 14 years I never got used to these stripes. Not priority of course, but it's a contrast with the cockpit graphics.

Edited January 10 by Bussard_x

January 10

1 hour ago, Bussard_x said:

In the Visible Update Beta videos on YT the lines seem to be not present. Can a beta tester confirm this?

I must say after 14 years I never got used to these stripes. Not priority of course, bit it's a contrast with the cockpit graphics.

Still there

January 11

16 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Back to the subject of the thread. 109 near the Isle of Wight as a Truesky sun rises

Taking you back OFF topic (Sorry), is that recent shot? Is Truesky back in open beta now? Last I heard it was stripped to bone for VR testing. Has it moved along?

January 11

48 minutes ago, BOO said:

Taking you back OFF topic (Sorry), is that recent shot? Is Truesky back in open beta now? Last I heard it was stripped to bone for VR testing. Has it moved along?

Yes it was created yesterday.

No Truesky is not back in the Beta, but it was for about an hour by accident....which is when I had downloaded it and made that shot.

Yes it's still stripped back to the landscape only for a further set of tests 👍

January 13

On 1/10/2025 at 9:06 AM, Mysticpuma said:

Back to the subject of the thread. 109 near the Isle of Wight as a Truesky sun rises

Nice I said to myself..Where the heck is Troooo ski? :huh:

Edited January 13 by II./JG27_Rich

January 13

8 hours ago, II./JG27_Rich said:

Nice I said to myself..Where the heck is Troooo ski?

Simply have a look at the clouds, we don't have such clouds in the current version of the game.

January 13

Let's have some fun, it's time for a blind test 😄

I have produced 4 screenshots of almost the same scene using different shadow map resolutions. Can you look at them and put them in order?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1M8WbUhEu9_n69oEneV_Ccblyv5xMnk-5?usp=sharing

January 13

12 minutes ago, batmacumba said:

Let's have some fun, it's time for a blind test 😄

I have produced 4 screenshots of almost the same scene using different shadow map resolutions. Can you look at them and put them in order?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1M8WbUhEu9_n69oEneV_Ccblyv5xMnk-5?usp=sharing

Difficult as the sun is in different positions but I will go either C,B,D,A or B,C,D,A

First letter being the better quality, but like I say, it's difficult to check the shadow as I am judging it off the air intake on the engine.

Hopefully that's close.

January 14

updated above

Edited January 14 by Mysticpuma

January 14

CADB

actually B seems to have no shadow

C being the one with the highest resolution

Edited January 14 by zzzxxxxzzz

January 14

From lowest resolution to highest:

B, D, A, C

By the way... is that new feature on B to completely disable shadows?? It is impossible in 5.041 as far as I remember.

Edited January 14 by FTC_Rostic

January 14

Im not sure if we are playing a what looks prettier or what sorts the issue of the herringbone stripes out here?

Given the differences in angles its impossible to play the latter thought its clearly still present on the wings in image A.

Anyhow thats not in the spirit of whats a bit of fun I guess

2 minutes ago, FTC_Rostic said:

From lowest resolution to highest:

B, D, A, C

By the way... is that new feature on B to completely disable shadows?? It is impossible in 5.041 as far as I remember.

They aint disabled - its either a different angle to the sun or less of something in the shadow map - the shadowing on the underside of the engine and intake is still present.

January 14

17 minutes ago, BOO said:

Im not sure if we are playing a what looks prettier or what sorts the issue of the herringbone stripes out here?

Given the differences in angles its impossible to play the latter thought its clearly still present on the wings in image A.

Anyhow thats not in the spirit of whats a bit of fun I guess

They aint disabled - its either a different angle to the sun or less of something in the shadow map - the shadowing on the underside of the engine and intake is still present.

Herring bone stripes is a different issue. This is about the shadows themselves. Some look jagged, some look smooth.

January 14

Hey guys, I'm sorry for not making the screenshots exactly the same. The only settings variation between them is the shadow map resolution, but that affects both the shadows themselves and the shadow acne issue. This is not meant to "catch" anyone, I expect you to do well, it's just so we have an idea of how big the resolution has to be before we can't tell the difference anymore.

I will post the resolutions soon and a sunset screenshot of a 109 with 16k shadow resolution, let me just get some breakfast lol.

January 14

As we are looking for the herring bone effect, I would say the following order for "Shadow acne", best to worst (C and A are subjective depending if you prefer wider herring bones or narrower as bad/good):
B,D,C,A

B

D

C

A

B still has issues, but nowhere near as bad:

Edited January 14 by Mysticpuma

January 14

Thanks for playing, everyone! Here are the resolutions:
B 256 ShadowMapSize=1

D 4096 ShadowMapSize=5

A 8192 ShadowMapSize=6 (not available yet)

C 16384 ShadowMapSize=7 (not available yet)

The fix for this is really adding the dynamic depth bias, as we discussed before, but as a stopgap I thought that the increased shadow map resolution would serve well, however I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe with the sun at a lower position, the results would be different. What do you think?

And here's a screenshot of a 109 at sunset with 16k shadow map resolution, notice the issue still happening on the curved surfaces:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10HRjaPsImLHdHNdOcaVncmMA2OtO5-mO/view?usp=sharing

o7o7

Edited January 14 by batmacumba

January 14

Maybe the game has modeled in Luder's lines...

https://www.admet.com/blog/luders-bands-phenomenon-in-astm-e8-tensile-testing/

Shadow quality - can you spot the difference in these test images from TFS?

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