Naval units and attack area MCUs

[Stonehouse]

Question regarding naval units and the attack area MCU and a possible game bug.  

 

So, as an example, I have a stock Gleaves destroyer close inshore and there are enemy ground units near the beach within LOS and range and an enemy aircraft overhead in range of AAA and the Gleaves has a low priority move waypoint down the coast some distance going past the enemy ground units and an attack area MCU targeting an area about 8km inland. So, a DD doing naval bombardment support of friendly units inland type situation.

 

Note that the stock targeting priority of the Gleaves main gun's AI bot definition is air units as primary targets followed by ground units whereas other naval vessels like a Type7 destroyer main gun has ground units as the primary and no anti air ability.  

 

If the attack area MCU is also low priority and only has the attack ground checkbox ticked (ie attack air and attack ground units are unchecked) what is the expected behaviour of the Gleaves?

What should it shoot at and with what weapons?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by Stonehouse

[jollyjack]

Hi Stonehouse. A while back i was busy with naval behavior.  Especially regarding torpedoes finding out why some attacks seemed to follow an arched path now also.

Any tests with that?

 

I was still trying to get LizLemon's torpedo plane mod to work again but could not find the proper torpedo access procedure, as they behaved only like normal SC100 bombs instead. Don''t think CountZero got any further with it as well.

 

About your Gleaves (and Destroyer 7) behavior. Can you post a mission or so with the your testing?

Quite a while ago when the Nazi costal gun bunkers appeased i did a few tests with the 7, the Gleaves was not there yet.

I'll see if i can find it and put the Gleaves there instead. The 7 attacked the bunkers quite well.

But i don't know if i used low priority with that Destroyer 7 used. I'l PM you this test if i find it.

 

 

 

[Stonehouse]

Ok - what I found was that the attack air and attack ground units check boxes in the attack area MCU are acting like a global on/off switch for the naval unit.

• If only attack ground and attack ground units are ticked then the Gleaves will first shoot at the close ground units with the main guns while the 20mm and 40mm AAA engages the enemy ship and once the ground units are destroyed the main guns will then target the enemy ship. Once the close ground units and the enemy ship are destroyed the Gleaves will fire on the ground area ~8km away. It does not engage the enemy aircraft. 
• If only the attack air and attack ground are ticked then the Gleaves will engage the aircraft noting that if a main turret cannot be brought to bear to fire on the aircraft due to arc limitations etc then that turret will fire at the ground area. Once the aircraft is destroyed or out of range the Gleaves will go back to firing at the ground area with all main guns. The close ground units and the enemy ship are never engaged even when the ship is within a few hundred meters and shooting at the Gleaves.
• If the attack air, attack ground units and attack ground are ticked then targets are engaged according to targeting priorities for the AI bots in question (one per weapon although some are the same bot definition) and per the weapons arc and range limits. If the priority target is outside arc then the next target type is engaged. Once all in-range and in LOS targets are destroyed the Gleaves resumes firing at the MCU defined area.
• If the MCU time expires then weapons return to firing according to targeting priorities, range and arc limits.
• If the MCU is not used (ie it's removed) then weapons fire according to targeting priorities, range and arc limits.

 

This is actually Kraut1's test mission as I am collaborating with him on some new naval mods. I believe that the current behaviour of the attack area MCU is bugged as I believe it should only apply to the area defined on the MCU and that particularly when the MCU is low priority that enemy targets close to the DD should be engaged according to the target priority defined in the relative bot files in preference to the attack ground instruction. IE I don't believe the MCU attack air and attack ground units should be acting like an on/off switch when considering targets close to the DD. You can try change which check boxes are ticked in the MCU and see what happens. It is very repeatable.

 

The mission starts you in an A20 a long way from the action. Put it in auto level or auto pilot and use shift F5 to change view to the Gleaves and watch what happens. Attached has the Attack area MCU set to attack ground only. As you will see the Gleaves doesn't shoot at any of the targets close to it even when the other ship shoots at it. You can then edit the mission to toggle the other check boxes on the MCU and observe and see if you get the same results and see whether you think the MCU is working as you expect.

destroyer-test-missions.zip

Edited January 12 by Stonehouse

[jollyjack]

Thnx.

Just found my firingpoint test files, also one from Tip.

Alas i always get a 'file not found error': Graphics\Shaders\Trash\AtmSphere.fx

Probably from a missing mod, Do you happen to know where to find it?

what are LOS targets, Load On Sight?

 

PS i begin to think the error above is some windows thing or IL2 bug, right clicking a mission file pointing it to the mission editor causes this.

Loading via open file in the ME works.

 

ADDED: removed the tests, waypointing errors, will re-post later.

Edited January 13 by jollyjack

[Stonehouse]

6 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Graphics\Shaders\Trash\AtmSphere.fx

Don't know that one. As far as I know I did not have mods on when trying my attached mission ie it is all stock.

 

LOS = line of sight. ie direct fire

 

Did you try ticking the MCU attack air and attack ground unit checkboxes? If you do then the Gleaves fires at the close targets, if they are unchecked then the Gleaves ignores them. Surely the MCU tick boxes are meant to influence only the behaviour within the zone defined by the MCU? and the priority of the MCU is how single minded the assigned unit is about carrying out the MCU instructions. 

 

Low priority - yes I thought that if the waypoint priority or the MCU priority was low then the Gleaves would attack the ground area but also attack nearby enemy units. 

 

 

Edited January 12 by Stonehouse

[Jaegermeister]

10 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

I believe that the current behaviour of the attack area MCU is bugged as I believe it should only apply to the area defined on the MCU and that particularly when the MCU is low priority that enemy targets close to the DD should be engaged according to the target priority defined in the relative bot files in preference to the attack ground instruction. IE I don't believe the MCU attack air and attack ground units should be acting like an on/off switch when considering targets close to the DD.

 

Your last sentence seems to be the relevant part, as you contradicted yourself. Maybe it's a typo and you meant "it should not only apply to the area defined".

 

Whenever you place an active attack area, the linked object will exclude attacking any objects that are outside the Attack Area zone. It has always been that way and as far as I know should be. If you want the Linked Object to attack a close enemy object that is not in the attack zone, you have to deactivate the Attack Area MCU. If you eliminate the Attack Area altogether, you will not get the ship to attack ground, but you really can't have it both ways at the same time as they are mutually exclusive.  

[Stonehouse]

3 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

it should not only apply to the area defined

Hmm I think maybe I am not writing things clearly. I'll try to reword it.

 

If you try the mission and see what different MCU checkboxes being ticked do you will see what I am getting at. It is quite possible that my expectations are incorrect - which is why I posted here in order to get other's feedback before filing a bug report.

 

When the MCU is active and low priority and only the attack ground box ticked the DD will not attack enemy ground, naval or air units in range and LOS and outside the zone. Instead it will just fire at the ground zone defined by the MCU. For clarity by in range and LOS I mean the enemy is less than 1000m from the DD in clear view and not only will main guns not fire at these close targets neither will AAA. I can't speak about torps as the enemy ship is within 100m or so and inside min range for torps.

 

However, if the MCU is active and low priority and the attack ground box is checked and the other boxes checked as well then the DD will attack the highest priority target (air in case of the Gleaves) in range and LOS. Once that target is destroyed or if a weapon cannot be brought to bear on this highest priority target then that weapon will fire at the next lowest priority target in range and LOS that is within arc. If there is no such target the weapon will fire at the ground zone defined by the MCU if it is able to. IE it doesn't fire at the ground zone until the in-range enemies are destroyed or out of range or out of arc.

 

In fact you can filter target types outside the MCU zone with the air and ground unit check boxes. If you tick ground area and just ground units then you will get similar behaviour to the prior paragraph but the in range and LOS out of zone aircraft will be ignored. If you tick ground area and just air units then in range and LOS and out of zone ground and naval units will be ignored.

 

If there is no MCU and the move waypoint is low priority as far as I can see the DD will shoot at any enemy in range and LOS.

 

Is the above the behaviour you expect from ticking the MCU checkboxes?

 

The section from the manual states that the attack ground units check box is for units within the MCU zone. Unfortunately, it isn't clear for air units. It does seem to work that way for ground units in the zone but is also seeming to work as an on/off switch for targets outside the MCU zone.

 

Spoiler

Attack Targets
The type of targets to attack
Attack Air Targets–Attack enemy planes.
Attack Ground–Attack the general area defined by the attack command.
Attack Ground Targets–Attack objects in area defined by the attack command

 

I also was perhaps mistakenly under the impression that the priority on the MCU influenced behaviour outside the MCU as below. I realised that maneuvering doesn't apply to naval units but I figured they would still engage close enemies on low and medium priority as well as try to do what the MCU asks. Is that not the case in practice?

Spoiler

Priority
The priority of the attack.
Low–The attacking objects can also attack nearby enemies.
Medium–The attacking objects can maneuver to defend themselves from attacks.
High–The attacking objects do nothing except attack the target.

 

Edited January 13 by Stonehouse

[jollyjack]

22 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Don't know that one. As far as I know I did not have mods on when trying my attached mission ie it is all stock.

 

LOS = line of sight. ie direct fire

 

Did you try ticking the MCU attack air and attack ground unit checkboxes? If you do then the Gleaves fires at the close targets, if they are unchecked then the Gleaves ignores them. Surely the MCU tick boxes are meant to influence only the behaviour within the zone defined by the MCU? and the priority of the MCU is how single minded the assigned unit is about carrying out the MCU instructions. 

 

Low priority - yes I thought that if the waypoint priority or the MCU priority was low then the Gleaves would attack the ground area but also attack nearby enemy units. 

 

 

MCU AttackArea: attack ground thus.

[Jaegermeister]

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

When the MCU is active and low priority and only the attack ground box ticked the DD will not attack enemy ground, naval or air units in range and LOS and outside the zone. Instead it will just fire at the ground zone defined by the MCU. For clarity by in range and LOS I mean the enemy is less than 1000m from the DD in clear view and not only will main guns not fire at these close targets neither will AAA. I can't speak about torps as the enemy ship is within 100m or so and inside min range for torps.

 

This is the behavior I am used to seeing also. 

 

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

However, if the MCU is active and low priority and the attack ground box is checked and the other boxes checked as well then the DD will attack the highest priority target (air in case of the Gleaves) in range and LOS. Once that target is destroyed or if a weapon cannot be brought to bear on this highest priority target then that weapon will fire at the next lowest priority target in range and LOS that is within arc. If there is no such target the weapon will fire at the ground zone defined by the MCU if it is able to. IE it doesn't fire at the ground zone until the in-range enemies are destroyed or out of range or out of arc.

 

If the first behavior you mentioned above is as it should be, then this would be expected and correct.

 

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

In fact you can filter target types outside the MCU zone with the air and ground unit check boxes. If you tick ground area and just ground units then you will get similar behaviour to the prior paragraph but the in range and LOS out of zone aircraft will be ignored. If you tick ground area and just air units then in range and LOS and out of zone ground and naval units will be ignored.

 

Same as above. It goes back to whether or not the first behavior is correct.

 

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

If there is no MCU and the move waypoint is low priority as far as I can see the DD will shoot at any enemy in range and LOS.

 

yes, that is correct. It has been recommended you trigger a “force complete low” but that does not appear to always be required.

 

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Is the above the behaviour you expect from ticking the MCU checkboxes?

 

yes

 

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

 

The section from the manual states that the attack ground units check box is for units within the MCU zone. Unfortunately, it isn't clear for air units. It does seem to work that way for ground units in the zone but is also seeming to work as an on/off switch for targets outside the MCU zone.

 

  Hide contents

Attack Targets
The type of targets to attack
Attack Air Targets–Attack enemy planes.
Attack Ground–Attack the general area defined by the attack command.
Attack Ground Targets–Attack objects in area defined by the attack command

 

With air units, an airplane will continue to attack an enemy aircraft it starts to focus on outside of the attack area zone until it either gets too far away from the plane it is attacking, something like 2000 meters, or it gets too far away from the attack zone, more like 20,000 meters. That would explain why air units are unclear in the manual description of that function.

 

 

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

I also was perhaps mistakenly under the impression that the priority on the MCU influenced behaviour outside the MCU as below. I realised that maneuvering doesn't apply to naval units but I figured they would still engage close enemies on low and medium priority as well as try to do what the MCU asks. Is that not the case in practice?

  Hide contents

Priority
The priority of the attack.
Low–The attacking objects can also attack nearby enemies.
Medium–The attacking objects can maneuver to defend themselves from attacks.
High–The attacking objects do nothing except attack the target.

I have only looked carefully at how air units react to those priorities, but I have been told that all complex vehicles use the same AI routines, so it should apply there as well.

 

So to sum it up, I guess the only real question is whether or not a ground vehicle should still defend itself from a close range enemy when it is set to “attack ground” at some distant point. I would think it should, like you suggested. You could do a bug report and specify that when a vehicle is set to attack ground it does not defend itself and include a simple mission to demonstrate just that behavior. If the devs agree that is is unreasonable for a vehicle to not defend itself from a close immediate threat, maybe they will work on it.

 

 

Edited January 13 by Jaegermeister

[jollyjack]

Well, finally got the chance to have a look. Only the AtackArea targeted vehicles are under fire, and also still when they are dead meat.

The gleaves then still leaves the other targets alone.

If that's a bug it also is so when you replace the Gleaves with a Destroyer7.

Edited January 14 by jollyjack

[kraut1]

1 hour ago, jollyjack said:

Well, finally got the chance to have a look. Only the AtackArea targeted vehicles are under fire, and also still when they are dead meat.

The gleaves then still leaves the other targets alone.

If that's a bug it also is so when you replace the Gleaves with a Destroyer7.

Sorry, could be the reason that the destroyers are using different ai bots?

-the Gleaves uses for the 127mm main guns an AA Bot and the Dest.7 for the 130mm a Tank Gunner bot.

[Stonehouse]

5 hours ago, kraut1 said:

the Gleaves uses for the 127mm main guns an AA Bot and the Dest.7 for the 130mm a Tank Gunner bot.

More of an FYI the difference there is the targeting priorities. AA bot has priority of 1 for air and 0.2 for ground (which I believe includes naval units) and tank bot has 0 for air and 1 for ground. The Type 7 main turret definitions also don't have an air attack range. IE The main turrets of the Type 7 is only for ground/naval targets. 

 

I am putting together a bug report as I have time.

Edited January 15 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Bug report posted in the bug sub forum.