Yak-1 Vs Bf-109

[VikingFjord]

i was learning new stuff about VVS Aircraft and i came across this when i was reading in wikipedia and i wanted to share:

"The Yak-1 was better than Bf 109E but inferior to Bf 109F [9] - its main opponent - in rate of climb at all altitudes. And although it could complete a circle at the same speed (20–21 seconds at 1,000 meters [10]) as a Bf 109, its lack of agility made dogfights difficult, demanding high levels of concentration. In comparison, a Bf 109, with its automatic flaps, had a lower stall speed and was more stable in sharp turns and vertical aerobatic figures.[7] A simulated combat between a Yak (with M-105PF engine) and a Bf 109F revealed that the Messerschmitt had only marginally superior manoeuvrability at 1,000 meters (3,300 ft), though the German fighter could gain substantial advantage over the Yak-1 within four or five nose-to-tail turns. At 3,000 meters (9,800 ft) the capabilities of the two fighters were nearly equal, combat essentially reduced to head-on attacks. At altitudes over 5,000 meters ( 16,400 ft) the Yak was more manoeuvrable. The engine’s nominal speed at low altitudes was lowered to 2,550 rpm and the superiority of the Bf 109F at these altitudes was reduced"

And this one:

" the Yak-1B was equal to the Messerschmitt Bf 109G"

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-1

(Operational history 8-12)


 

[Finkeren]

Wikipedia is not the right source to go to when weighing one aircraft against another.

 

Saying that some aircraft is 'the equal of' another is a highly subjective sweeping statement and not likely to be based on much deep analysis.

 

Not saying, you shouldn't read Wikipedia when learning about WW2 aircraft, but be careful around sweeping statements or comments about one aircraft being 'superior'.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 They were close in terms of performance and the piloting skill was decisive in any encounter. 

[Finkeren]

On the contrary, I would argue that in the aspects that matter most in a true tactical scenario, the early 109Gs held an edge in almost all areas compared to late Yak-1s: Much better climb rate, higher top speed at all altitudes, simpler piloting, more advanced gun sights, better radio equipment, safer handling, some armour protection for the fuel tank etc. The Yaks had one important advantage though: Visibility from the cockpit. Regardless if the supposed lower quality of Soviet perspex, the 109 cockpit was cramped and hard to get a good view from.

 

Mind you, I'm actually kind of a VVS fanboi, but it's just hard to make the case, that Soviet fighters had caught up to their German counterparts in late 1942. They were getting there, but still lacked both refinement and performance optimisation.

 

In BoS MP the 109 vs. Yak-1 match is much closer, because the fights happen mostly at very low altitude and involve lots of tight turns burning enormous amounts of energy, and that's where the light Yak truly shines.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Do not forget the "flap spam" BoS allows at the moment.

[Finkeren]

Which doesn't matter. I personally never use flaps in combat, and if I go up against a 109 in a low alt turnfight, I come out on top in 90% of the cases.

 

The 109 is still overall better, simply because the German pilot has a better chance of starting the fight with an energy advantage and has better ways of turning a difficult situation around. It's just that few pilots in MP utilize these advantages.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 From the discussions with FiAF aces, they said the Yak's always disengaged with a roll as they could do it faster than a Bf109. But in other aspects they said Yak was inferior, even the Yak-9 could not keep up with the Bf109G-2/6's FiAF had. Same was said about the La-5 family, they really could not outclimb the Bf109G. Sure pilot skill plays a role and other factors, that we do not see in the gaming environment: fatigue, G-effects, fear of death etc. Here everyone is always top shape and in some cases "better trained" than the pilots back in WW2. So this is why I dropped the craving for "accuracy" as there can't be any, just an image of what devs think is accurate. A game. I enjoy the planes and their technology, how they look and stuff. Debating their performance will never end.

[II/JG17KaC_Wolfe]

Which doesn't matter. I personally never use flaps in combat, and if I go up against a 109 in a low alt turnfight, I come out on top in 90% of the cases.

 

The 109 is still overall better, simply because the German pilot has a better chance of starting the fight with an energy advantage and has better ways of turning a difficult situation around. It's just that few pilots in MP utilize these advantages.

Hi - I would be interested in hearing your views on how to get the best out of the 109.  I'm a bit of a newbie but this games got me hooked - just keep getting shot down too often.

[Finkeren]

Hi - I would be interested in hearing your views on how to get the best out of the 109. I'm a bit of a newbie but this games got me hooked - just keep getting shot down too often.

In the 109 it's simple:

 

You're basically a solid fueled rocket compared to all other fighters. Use that to always stay on top. As soon as you get off the ground climb, climb, climb then climb some more.

 

If you see a VVS fighter climb towards you, don't dive to meet him, instead climb - let him use his energy. As soon as you see him nearing a stall or giving up and turn away, pounce on him.

 

In the Bf 109, especially the G2, the answer to any combat situation is nearly always 'climb'. It's a gross oversimplification but it works.

[Finkeren]

Also: Don't ever use cannon pods unless you know you're out to hunt bombers. All they do is eat your performance (which is your main advantage) and make you worry about convergence.

 

The 109 has ammo enough to take down at least 4 - 5 fighters in one sortie, even if you're a mediocre marksman like me.

[VikingFjord]

In the 109 it's simple:

 

You're basically a solid fueled rocket compared to all other fighters. Use that to always stay on top. As soon as you get off the ground climb, climb, climb then climb some more.

 

If you see a VVS fighter climb towards you, don't dive to meet him, instead climb - let him use his energy. As soon as you see him nearing a stall or giving up and turn away, pounce on him.

 

In the Bf 109, especially the G2, the answer to any combat situation is nearly always 'climb'. It's a gross oversimplification but it works.

i have had great suceess with the G2 in same level flight against Yak-1

for me the problems starts when getting trapped alone or very out numbered in a swarm of Yak-1's

the other night i shot down two yak in less then 3-4min

there is many unexperiance pilots out flying and many of them i have never seen before

and as you said the fight is often low and in most cases yes thats when the Yak shines

but i have had very good score with my G2 on those levels

[Finkeren]

Don't get me wrong VikingFjord, it's not that you can't get lots of kills in the 109 in low level turnfights, you sure can. However, it's not gonna do you any good the moment another Yak or even a LaGG joins the fight or you meet a guy who really knows how to handle the Yak.

 

The reason I like the scoring system so far in BoS is that you make absolutely no points if you die. I always look at other players' point score as a measure of their skill, never the number of kills. If you manage to get 1 kill in a sortie and land your aircraft safely, it earns you more respect from me than getting 6 kills and then getting shot down.

[VikingFjord]

for me at least it works very well most times i end up dry then i land and start over
but i would really like to learn how to handle the Yak-1 as i handle the 109
i have used alot of time reading about VVS and had some alone time with the Yak-1 and it feels very light and nible and roll rate is very good
but in Mp i dont seem to do much with it..i guess 20yrs i mostly german planes has done something to the way i think about tactics
becuse they dont really work for VVS its two diffrent worlds really

[C-Bag]

For me this sim is the best of all the worlds where I get to read about and research the different aircraft and the different approaches, then fly them. I don't have any idea how you can get the real low down on each machine as there's so much of those "sweeping statements" in movies and archives. Not to mention possible propaganda. I'm amazed at what the Dev's have come up with and I can only hope they don't get too discouraged by the beatings they get from some of the fans of the aircraft in this sim.

 

In flying all the different aircraft as far as the fighters I'm also a big fan of the Yak 1. Everybody is different and every one of these aircraft has different personalities so some place you are going to find your fit. I never understood the difference between boom & zoom and turn & burn back when I was flying Fighter Duel in the early 90's. I just knew I didn't care for the P 51, or the 109. My favs were the Spit, Zero and Hellcat. So flying the Yak 1 is a natural and La 5 and LaGG 3 just feel like slugs. But my taste in cars is very similar in that I was a VW / Porsche man and never liked muscle cars. More turn and burn as opposed to go fast and wallow through the corners

 

In looking deeper into the Yak's online I came across http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/yak1.shtml and am intrigued and confused by the many models that don't seem to follow a progression. Like it seems the Yak 9 was also at Stalingrad, and maybe the Yak 7? And I guess if I was going to wish for something I'd wish for the Yak 1M which turned into the Yak 3 close to the end of the war? On these pages anyway there's always the sweeping statements that the Yak's were the best.

So I guess I have to take that with a grain of salt of course. But by their spec's(and we all know what a sh**storm that causes) the Yak 1M and the 3 do seem like my idea of fast, strong and nimble.

 

I've even found a book "The Aim of a Lifetime" by Alexander Yakolev and ordered it. The reviews were good so we'll see.

[VikingFjord]

Spit is one of my favorits too C-Bag
i see you found the same page as me i find much needed info over there
and there will allways be like this that those who like american claims p51 was best and those who like german claim 190 or 109 to be best
and so on i think its more complicated then that but what i do belive is that your book there would be a great read
so please tell us if you like it

[Gambit21]

it's not gonna do you any good the moment another Yak or even a LaGG joins the fight or you meet a guy who really knows how to handle the Yak.

 

This

When I'm in a Yak a single 109 who decides to turn with me doesn't pucker me much - unless it's a very unusual pilot I know I can settle in and wait for him to make an error.

If I'm in a 109 I know I can dictate the rules and get out of Dodge if I need to.

[C-Bag]

i see you found the same page as me i find much needed info over there

and there will allways be like this that those who like american claims p51 was best and those who like german claim 190 or 109 to be best

and so on i think its more complicated then that but what i do belive is that your book there would be a great read

so please tell us if you like it

I'm glad you found that page too VikingFjord. While it seems to have good info, those sweeping statements are definitely in there. But this whole world of Russian aircraft is new to me. By the end of the 90's and trying different WWII sims I lost interest and I  never noticed any Russian aircraft in them.  I didn't even find IL-2 1946 until early last year on GOG. While I liked it ok, there was no comparison with the visuals of COD. But for some reason COD didn't hold my interest either until I caught wind of BOS.

 

I could be totally off base here, but you talking about all the years of flying German aircraft would make me think that your "muscle memory" or instinct would be opposite of flying a Spit or Yak1. I'm still at the training stage and am just doing offline stuff. I was getting ok in 1 on 1 with AI in the Yak 1. Then I trained with the La 5 for a while and thought I would do ok with it but when I went to fly 1 on 1 just totally got my butt handed to me, over and over. So I'm resigned to the idea the Yak 1 is a better fit as I just don't think BnZ. I have no idea if all the clamor for a big suite of planes like 1946 had would do anything for me because I seem to do best in the IL2 and the Yak 1 with the limited amount of time I have for the sim.

 

But maybe I'm painting myself in a corner if there's careers in the sim where you have to fly different aircraft?

 

I've found a couple of Russian vids on Utube that are very interesting. But there's a lot of them that are not in English, so I'm stuck. I am glad that more and more Russian history and memoirs are available in English as there is this bias in the west that the Russian were just copying other designs and somehow inferior. The more I fly the sim and the more I dig, the more I disagree. I see where they were influenced but over and over I'm struck by their unique way of engineering. And it seems Yakovlev had a very unique life history and it shows in his designs. I'm looking fwd to seeing if the book is as good as some of the reviews.

[VikingFjord]

instincts are little different from what Spitfire and Yak-1 pilots has but i believe it or not i am a Turn fighter pilot
i start to find myself changing the planes that i prefer..i was just 5yrs old when i started with simulators back in 1995
but now days i started to take interest in planes like Yak-9K and Polikarpov I-16
hopefully we will see them in BOS as time goes
so don't be surprised to see if we end up on the same team one day
i have also like you watched some videos both in Russian and English and i suppose you seen the Wings of the red star on youtube?
i think the bias still is around but its starting to become less of it as time goes
Russians made very good planes i like the idea of no having cannons in the wings and i like that they made them smaller then most other fighters of its days

[C-Bag]

I thought my son started playing video games young He's never been into sims though.

 

I've also watched the Wings vids and the U2oob vids flying actual I-16 , IL2 and a Yak 7. It would seem the Yak-9 should be in the sim along with the I-16 as they were both at Stalingrad. I'm not sure how the I-16 will fly but being that short coupled it's got to be crazy to land which is what was shown in the vids of one flying/landing. 

 

Unfortunately there's not a lot of the actual tactics shown that the Russian pilots seem to be showing each other with their hands in some of the vids. And I'm still on the hunt for books about the Russian aces. But even then most of the memoirs seem to be more about living with the war than the actual flying.

 

Most of the bias here is left over from the cold war silliness. Along with the idea that a partially wooden aircraft is inferior. But tell that to the Mosquito fans. There's another interesting site I found on the Yak 1

 

http://www.yak-1.co.uk/

 

The pics of the Klimov engine are stunning. The co. that's doing the restoration mentions the engine is a work of art surpassing anything they have seen from the allies or axis. As a certified A&P(airframes and powerplants) mechanic, none of the American made WWII radial engines I saw ever looked like that on the inside!