Motion - Realism? (Including Angle vs Rate setting in SRS)

[Varibraun]

@Youtch I think this is the video you mentioned in the Rhino thread.  I has a good discussion with the old F-18 pilot about his thoughts regarding what motion adds (17:58) based on his experience.  I have the video set to start with a description of the difference between Angle/Rate in the SRS software including his preference for Rate.  However, as mentioned by @dgiatr in the other thread (linked below the video), my preliminary efforts have not been successful in getting the SRS "rate" setting to work in IL2 GB.

 

 

 

[Youtch]

This is exactly this video i was referring to.

[Varibraun]

SRS improvements for IL2: Latest stable version of SRS now supports individual aircraft profiles and "Rate" now appears to be functioning.

[dgiatr]

13 hours ago, Varibraun said:

SRS improvements for IL2: Latest stable version of SRS now supports individual aircraft profiles and "Rate" now appears to be functioning.

Hi Varibraun MerryChristmas!,

Did you check "rate"?

How is it?

 

https://www.simracingstudio.com/previous-versions

 

I see sim racing studio latest update has some very interesting new features like "fixed rate for il2" as you said but also "motion compensation using AI and not witmotion hardware ".

So does motion compensation will work for 6dof also?

Edited December 27, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

6 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Hi Varibraun MerryChristmas!,

Did you check "rate"?

How is it?

 

https://www.simracingstudio.com/previous-versions

 

I see sim racing studio latest update has some very interesting new features like "fixed rate for il2" as you said but also "motion compensation using AI and not witmotion hardware ".

So does motion compensation will work for 6dof also?

 

Merry Christmas - This was a nice present from SRS!

 

I did check "Rate" briefly yesterday in the roll axis (since that is where it seemed that most of the comments I have seen said it made things more realistic).  However, it was only at the very end of my session when I realized the patch notes were probably referring to the RATE/ANGLE vs. fixing something dealing with the responsiveness "rate" of pitch and roll (which I was testing since I didn't think there was anything wrong with those and then couldn't tell any difference when it finally dawned on me...lol, I know, sometimes I can be a bit slow). 

 

So, based on just a few turns landing a damaged 109, I can tell you it does work and feels very different.  I hope to have more time over the weekend to see which I prefer.  It definitely takes away that "hanging in straps" feel of the roll, which is what I think the IRL pilots have said may be fun, but is not realistic.  But you still get a good initial feel of roll - it may also need some tweaking in the settings to get it right.

 

I didn't try Intellicomp since I am pretty happy with the Wit right now for my P3. Based on the comment in Discord below, it doesn't look like it works for 6DoF yet either.  (Also, I was a bit baffled by the fact that SRS discontinued their Discord.  Right now, the only way to engage the community about SRS appears to be a subtree in the DoF Discord which is where I found this).

 

 

[dgiatr]

19 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Merry Christmas - This was a nice present from SRS!

 

I did check "Rate" briefly yesterday in the roll axis (since that is where it seemed that most of the comments I have seen said it made things more realistic).  However, it was only at the very end of my session when I realized the patch notes were probably referring to the RATE/ANGLE vs. fixing something dealing with the responsiveness "rate" of pitch and roll (which I was testing since I didn't think there was anything wrong with those and then couldn't tell any difference when it finally dawned on me...lol, I know, sometimes I can be a bit slow). 

 

So, based on just a few turns landing a damaged 109, I can tell you it does work and feels very different.  I hope to have more time over the weekend to see which I prefer.  It definitely takes away that "hanging in straps" feel of the roll, which is what I think the IRL pilots have said may be fun, but is not realistic.  But you still get a good initial feel of roll - it may also need some tweaking in the settings to get it right.

 

I didn't try Intellicomp since I am pretty happy with the Wit right now for my P3. Based on the comment in Discord below, it doesn't look like it works for 6DoF yet either.  (Also, I was a bit baffled by the fact that SRS discontinued their Discord.  Right now, the only way to engage the community about SRS appears to be a subtree in the DoF Discord which is where I found this).

 

 

Just tried in the new srs beta version rate vs angle in roll and what srs did was to turn to the opossite direction which means I roll left but platform rolls to the right and vice versa. Is that how it should work? Probably it wants to simulate the Inertia of the body which wants to stay straightforward while the plane is rolling?

To be honest I don't think I like it, I feel a little dizzy that way, it's a strange feeling probably I am used to angle setting.

 

[jonfog]

23 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Just tried in the new srs beta version rate vs angle in roll and what srs did was to turn to the opossite direction which means I roll left but platform rolls to the right and vice versa. Is that how it should work? Probably it wants to simulate the Inertia of the body which wants to stay straightforward while the plane is rolling?

To be honest I don't think I like it, I feel a little dizzy that way, it's a strange feeling probably I am used to angle setting.

 

Hi, I just experienced that to. The trick is to manually insert a negative number.

[dgiatr]

10 minutes ago, jonfog said:

Hi, I just experienced that to. The trick is to manually insert a negative number.

Thank you jonfog,

how will it react in that case? Will it behave differently than in the "angle" setting?

Edited December 29, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

10 hours ago, jonfog said:

Hi, I just experienced that to. The trick is to manually insert a negative number.

 

Thank you!  I also received that advice from Jeff Weaver in the Gygo discord.  I wonder if the Rate reversed axis is a bug, since Angle goes the correct way without a negative number?

 

On 12/28/2024 at 5:01 AM, dgiatr said:

To be honest I don't think I like it, I feel a little dizzy that way, it's a strange feeling probably I am used to angle setting.

 

10 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Will it behave differently than in the "angle" setting?

 

Yes...I had a chance to fly a few missions with it now that it is going the correct way.  It is still a different feel than Angle, but more natural now that it isn't going against the roll (which initially gave me a moment of dizziness as well with the axis reversed to the roll).  Based on my couple of flights today with the correct direction, I think I like Rate better than Angle in VR (it might be a different story on a flat screen).  I think I now feel the roll more on the joystick input, but having it level out doesn't leave you only feeling gravity like you sitting still, "hanging in the straps" and instead seems to simulate inertia keeping you in the seat during a turn (if that makes sense). 

[dgiatr]

4 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

Thank you!  I also received that advice from Jeff Weaver in the Gygo discord.  I wonder if the Rate reversed axis is a bug, since Angle goes the correct way without a negative number?

 

 

 

Yes...I had a chance to fly a few missions with it now that it is going the correct way.  It is still a different feel than Angle, but more natural now that it isn't going against the roll (which initially gave me a moment of dizziness as well with the axis reversed to the roll).  Based on my couple of flights today with the correct direction, I think I like Rate better than Angle in VR (it might be a different story on a flat screen).  I think I now feel the roll more on the joystick input, but having it level out doesn't leave you only feeling gravity like you sitting still, "hanging in the straps" and instead seems to simulate inertia keeping you in the seat during a turn (if that makes sense). 

Thank you guys for the tip.

 

Do you keep the same max telemetry number of roll axis between angle and rate? Of course it will be a negative number for rate setting but their absolute values will be the same?

I mean let's say 40 max telemetry for angle roll then we edit -40 for rate roll ? or we change it let's say from 40 during angle roll to -20 for rate roll?

 

Thank you.

Edited December 30, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

13 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Thank you guys for the tip.

 

Do you keep the same max telemetry number of roll axis between angle and rate? Of course it will be a negative number for rate setting but their absolute values will be the same?

I mean let's say 40 max telemetry for angle roll then we edit -40 for rate roll ? or we change it let's say from 40 during angle roll to -20 for rate roll?

 

Thank you.

 

In my experimenting with it this weekend, I kept the same # with a negative (going to Rate actually switched my base roll max telemetry # from 35 to 30, so I went with that and just changed it to -30).  So right now on the FW190 I am running Roll Rate at 20/-30.

[dgiatr]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

In my experimenting with it this weekend, I kept the same # with a negative (going to Rate actually switched my base roll max telemetry # from 35 to 30, so I went with that and just changed it to -30).  So right now on the FW190 I am running Roll Rate at 20/-30.

WOW!!!Amazing!!!Just tried the right roll rate setting..

 

How is it possible to cheat my mind that way? If I roll left although I know that platform will roll right, I cannot feel the right movement of the platform as in angle setting but I feel my body as it wants to be ejected to the opposite direction ( right) instead.

Which probably is my body inertia efect. Suddenly i feel like more g forces when rolling!

I will defenetly keep it that way..

 

How about pitch rate , do you use it or not? In case you enabled it do you apply negative max telemetry value or not?

 

Thanks..

Edited December 30, 2024 by dgiatr

[dgiatr]

21 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

In my experimenting with it this weekend, I kept the same # with a negative (going to Rate actually switched my base roll max telemetry # from 35 to 30, so I went with that and just changed it to -30).  So right now on the FW190 I am running Roll Rate at 20/-30.

Hi Varibraun,

 

I tried another Srs motion tuning roll setting which seems to simulate continuous sway g-forces during roll movement. 

I set "angle" setting in roll motion and at the same time I set negative the correspondant max telemetry value.  That way you feel a continuous sway force at the opposite direction of rolling. Platform moves at the opposite direction than that of your plane inside the Vr image. Vr image , say turning left, inside the human brain is so dominant that you indeed believe that you turn left although at the same time you cannot feel your body banking at the opposite right direction and at the same time you feel a constant "fake" sway g force towards the right direction due to your body weight.

The same could happen to pitch movement. Set "angle" to pitch and set a negative number to the correspondent max telemetry value. Due to body inertia it wants to go up or backwards when the plane goes down and vice versa.

 

You could check it that way and tell how does it feel...

Edited December 31, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

On 12/31/2024 at 6:24 AM, dgiatr said:

Hi Varibraun,

 

I tried another Srs motion tuning roll setting which seems to simulate continuous sway g-forces during roll movement. 

I set "angle" setting in roll motion and at the same time I set negative the correspondant max telemetry value.  That way you feel a continuous sway force at the opposite direction of rolling. Platform moves at the opposite direction than that of your plane inside the Vr image. Vr image , say turning left, inside the human brain is so dominant that you indeed believe that you turn left although at the same time you cannot feel your body banking at the opposite right direction and at the same time you feel a constant "fake" sway g force towards the right direction due to your body weight.

The same could happen to pitch movement. Set "angle" to pitch and set a negative number to the correspondent max telemetry value. Due to body inertia it wants to go up or backwards when the plane goes down and vice versa.

 

You could check it that way and tell how does it feel...

 

Hi Dgiatr - I really appreciate you keeping us posted on your progress and testing here.

 

I was able to give this a try yesterday and I understand what you are saying, but "Angle" going the opposite direction didn't work for me.  The continuous force going opposite the roll seemed "wrong" (and was disorienting for me) since staying in a "wing down" state doesn't always equate to the same inertia the opposite way.  For me "Rate" going the opposite direction (i.e. the way Rate is currently working in IL2 without a negative number) seemed better since it grabs that initial feel.  So, I think if I wanted to simulate that "opposite inertia/g-force" I would go with Rate vs Angle. 

 

Also, "Rate" with the negative (i.e. going in the same direction as the roll), still gives an some inertia feel, especially when you are pulling back on the stick.  Honestly, I wish there was more discussion on these settings somewhere with IRL pilots (I saw your post in the GYGO Discord trying to get some feedback).  I did do a very quick test in DCS just to see which way Rate goes there without a negative number, and it does seem that it goes the same direction as the roll.  So it appears to me (especially in light of Jeff Weaver weighing in on GYGO), that Rate is currently going the wrong way than intended (without the negative modifier) in IL-2.

 

Finally, I haven't tried Rate yet in pitch.  I will let you know once I do - hopefully this weekend.

[Varibraun]

On 12/30/2024 at 11:33 AM, dgiatr said:

How about pitch rate , do you use it or not? In case you enabled it do you apply negative max telemetry value or not?

 

Had a chance to give Rate a go for pitch this weekend.  You do not need to apply a negative to have it move in the same direction at the stick input (which again makes me think it is a bug in Roll that it goes in the opposite direction without a negative).  I think I have decided that I still like Angle better for pitch - but I may still experiment.

[Varibraun]

On 12/28/2024 at 5:01 AM, dgiatr said:

Just tried in the new srs beta version rate vs angle in roll and what srs did was to turn to the opossite direction which means I roll left but platform rolls to the right and vice versa.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 4:43 AM, jonfog said:

Hi, I just experienced that to. The trick is to manually insert a negative number.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 3:04 PM, Varibraun said:

I wonder if the Rate reversed axis is a bug, since Angle goes the correct way without a negative number?

 

SRS has confirmed this is a bug in Roll with Rate setting and it should be addressed in the next beta. 

Edited January 25 by Varibraun

[dgiatr]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

 

 

SRS has confirmed this is a bug (and informed me that it also is happening in YAW which I had missed).  So apply the negative # there too.  It should be addressed in the next beta. 

Hi Varibraum,

what do you mean by that?

 

How is it happening to YAW also? "Rate" vs "angle" choice exists only for pitch and roll for me and not for yaw too. If you push your rudder to one direction ( say left ) and the motion platform yaws to that direction too, then what else to check?

Am I missing something else than that?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Edited January 23 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

On 1/22/2025 at 7:59 PM, dgiatr said:

Hi Varibraum,

what do you mean by that?

 

How is it happening to YAW also? "Rate" vs "angle" choice exists only for pitch and roll for me and not for yaw too. If you push your rudder to one direction ( say left ) and the motion platform yaws to that direction too, then what else to check?

Am I missing something else than that?

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: Correct, no Rate/Angle option for Yaw and my Yaw currently appears to be working correctly in IL-2.  Sorry for the confusion, based on my testing with a DoFR P3, it seems that only Roll is currently impacted. 

Edited January 25 by Varibraun

[Varibraun]

On 1/22/2025 at 8:49 PM, Varibraun said:

Correct - I haven't had a chance to check it yet, but realizing that Yaw doesn't have the rate/angle option, I think he means it currently just goes in the wrong direction. 

 

@dgiatr - Just checked it and my Yaw is currently working as it should in IL-2 WITHOUT the negative #.  I just went back and edited my posts on this.  I guess we will see what happens in the next SRS update.  Please let us know if you are seeing something different. 

[dgiatr]

2 hours ago, Varibraun said:

 

@dgiatr - Just checked it and my Yaw is currently working as it should in IL-2 WITHOUT the negative #.  I just went back and edited my posts on this.  I guess we will see what happens in the next SRS update.  Please let us know if you are seeing something different. 

Hi Varibraun, everything is OK as you previously said about yaw

in Srs, no need for negative value. It's working as it should.

Edited January 25 by dgiatr