Spitfire IX Series Aircraft: Clipped Wing vs. Standard Wing

[KodiakJac]

Hi guys!

 

What was the historical verdict from the pilots who flew them on the clipped wing vs. the standard wing Spitfire IX series aircraft?

 

Clipped Wing:  Faster roll rate, larger turn radius?

 

Was the clipped wing Spitfire IX series considered superior in all aspects over the standard wing?  Some aspects?  None?

 

What is the historical verdict on the two wing designs?

 

Thanks! 

[Raptorattacker]

The clipped-wing version was, probably most importantly, far better all round at low altitudes. It was around 5mph faster than it's counterpart at 10,000 ft. and had a fantastic roll and dive-rate. It was also noticeably quicker to accelerate. Visibility in any confrontation was also better as the full wing actually covered quite an amount of the pilot's all-round view. All this gave it a far better parity with the emerging Butcher-Bird althouugh initially not quite as good (but better than pre-clip).

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Better roll rate. There is documentary video about that in YT.

[357th_KW]

It seems the clipped Mk IX and XVI didn't really see use until 1945.  Basically every photo you see of an operational Mk IX prior to this has the full wing.  

 

The Mk XII and Lf Vb seem to have gotten this modification much earlier (late 43/early 44) as they were low altitude specialist models.

[Kurfurst]

On 11/18/2024 at 9:09 AM, KodiakJac said:

Hi guys!

 

What was the historical verdict from the pilots who flew them on the clipped wing vs. the standard wing Spitfire IX series aircraft?

 

Clipped Wing:  Faster roll rate, larger turn radius?

 

Was the clipped wing Spitfire IX series considered superior in all aspects over the standard wing?  Some aspects?  None?

 

What is the historical verdict on the two wing designs?

 

Thanks! 

It was rather mixed.

Some pilots described it as a very considerable improvement in roll rate, others considered it marginal and overall   not worth the price paid in reduction in  turning, climb and ceiling capabilities of the aircraft.

 

The Spitfire was known to have quite a bit variation in the set of ailerons it received as this often lead to an inferior pairing of ailerons - as expected in wartime mass production. Friese ailerons are sensitive to that, which downgraded roll rate with the poorly matched ones. The biggest improvement was thus with these poor set of ailerons but barely noticeable with the good ones, hence the rather mixed reviews by actual combat pilots.

[tattywelshie]

Intersting topic, just wondering then, in game, is there any noticeable difference between the clipped and non clipped wing versions?  

[Devil5O5]

The clipped wing tips just ruin the elegant lines of the Spit 9. I just can't bring myself to use the clipped tips. I'd rather take the risk and look cool.

[sevenless]

Why? Some answers here:

 

https://flyaspitfire.com/2019/09/02/clipped-spitfire-wings-why-did-some-spitfires-have-them/

[Kurfurst]

On 11/18/2024 at 9:09 AM, KodiakJac said:

Hi guys!

 

What was the historical verdict from the pilots who flew them on the clipped wing vs. the standard wing Spitfire IX series aircraft?

 

To add to that (from DSIR 23/12925, DSIR 23/12562) - comparitive test performed with Mk V and Mk XII Spitfires :

 

 

Edited November 21, 2024 by VO101Kurfurst

[jollyjack]

Still don't know if both versions are modeled accordingly RL specs in IL2, i take it the clipped version should perform 'better'.

Edited November 21, 2024 by jollyjack

[fergal69]

Clipped wing spit looks similar to 109, so perhaps they could sneak into enemy territory without raising as much attention? 🤔 

[Avimimus]

14 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Still don't know if both versions are modeled accordingly RL specs in IL2, i take it the clipped version should perform 'better'.

 

Look at the above posts. The clipped wing version is almost the same speed, has worse turning performance, but a slightly higher roll rate. It has worse high altitude performance but is slightly less likely to have its wings snap off when dive bombing... so far as I can tell, all of this is correctly modelled in the sim.

 

None of this can be reduced to such a simple idea as 'better' though.

[FeuerFliegen]

I just did a top speed test to see if there was any difference, even though there is no speed difference mentioned in the sim's notes.

 

Spitfire Mk.IXe

 

1000m altitude

 

150 octane on both planes.

 

 

 

Kuban Map, Autumn.

 

Max combat; 2850rpm / 12lbs:  Standard wings- 497kph;  Clipped wings-  500kph.

 

Max power; 3000rpm / 25lbs: both planes were high 560's - low 570s, but I couldn't get a solid reading because the automatic radiators would begin to open and fluctuate right about the time it hit top speed.  The clipped wing did hit 574kph for a few seconds before the rads opened and brought it down to about 567.  The standard version, got to 570 and appeared to possibly still be accelerating but then the radiators opened.

 

 

Moscow Map, Winter

 

Max combat; 2850rpm / 12lbs:  Standard wings- 520kph;  Clipped wings-  523kph.

 

Max power; 3000rpm / 25lbs:  Standard wings-  597kph;  Clipped wings- 601kph

 

 

So I've come to conclude that the clipped wings on the Mk.IXe has a potential max speed gain of 4kph.

[FeuerFliegen]

 

 

I thought at very high altitude, the standard wings might be faster as the plane might hold a lower AoA, but that was not the case.

 

Tried the same test at 9000m, Merlin 70 engine, 3000rpm, full throttle (past critical altitude, was about +15.7lbs), Moscow Winter.  Standard wings - 397kph; Clipped wings - 398kph

Edited November 22, 2024 by FeuerFliegen

[56RAF_phoenix56]

RAF pilots reduced to flying venerable MkVs in fighter-bomber mode referred to them as, "clipped, cropped and clapped."

In other words, clipped-wing, cropped supercharger impeller (Merlin 50) and clapped-out engine!

This was not a compliment.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

I just did a top speed test to see if there was any difference, even though there is no speed difference mentioned in the sim's notes.

 

Spitfire Mk.IXe

 

1000m altitude

 

150 octane on both planes.

 

 

 

Kuban Map, Autumn.

 

Max combat; 2850rpm / 12lbs:  Standard wings- 497kph;  Clipped wings-  500kph.

 

Max power; 3000rpm / 25lbs: both planes were high 560's - low 570s, but I couldn't get a solid reading because the automatic radiators would begin to open and fluctuate right about the time it hit top speed.  The clipped wing did hit 574kph for a few seconds before the rads opened and brought it down to about 567.  The standard version, got to 570 and appeared to possibly still be accelerating but then the radiators opened.

 

 

Moscow Map, Winter

 

Max combat; 2850rpm / 12lbs:  Standard wings- 520kph;  Clipped wings-  523kph.

 

Max power; 3000rpm / 25lbs:  Standard wings-  597kph;  Clipped wings- 601kph

 

 

So I've come to conclude that the clipped wings on the Mk.IXe has a potential max speed gain of 4kph.

 

Which is what the historical accounts suggested when we had this conversation during the BoBP release! 😄 Nice to see it confirmed though!

[FeuerFliegen]

18 hours ago, 56RAF_phoenix56 said:

RAF pilots reduced to flying venerable MkVs in fighter-bomber mode referred to them as, "clipped, cropped and clapped."

In other words, clipped-wing, cropped supercharger impeller (Merlin 50) and clapped-out engine!

This was not a compliment.

 

 

That would be awesome if we had the Merlin 50 engine!  Is this the same as the Merlin 50M engine?  I looked it up and it was referred to as the 50M, and said it could do +18lbs of boost instead of +16lbs.  This would be perfect for low altitude performance; there are many planes that I wish had engines more finely tuned for low altitude.

 

What does clapped specifically mean?

 

 

Edit:  nevermind, looked it up and it's said to be a worn out, heavily used Spitfire.   I feel like the cropped supercharger impeller would be a good thing though, as long as they stayed at low altitude?

Edited November 23, 2024 by FeuerFliegen

[357th_KW]

An Lf Vb would be a nice 1943-44 addition for use on the Normandy map.

[FeuerFliegen]

it's for the Spitfire Mk.V, but I assume it will have similar aspects compared to the Mk.IX

On 11/22/2024 at 4:38 AM, FeuerFliegen said:

I thought at very high altitude, the standard wings might be faster as the plane might hold a lower AoA, but that was not the case.

  

The tests posted above shows that this should be the case, but wasn't in the sim in my testing.

Edited November 23, 2024 by FeuerFliegen

[Talisman]

5 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

it's for the Spitfire Mk.V, but I assume it will have similar aspects compared to the Mk.IX

  

The tests posted above shows that this should be the case, but wasn't in the sim in my testing.

That's better.  Properly conducted and informative comparative performance testing.  Many thanks for that.  

 

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited November 23, 2024 by Talisman

[III/JG11_Tiger]

Clipped, Cropped and Clapped

[MaxPower]

The article gives an interesting datapoint about the FW-190 A-3 and its turn radius at 25,000 feet as well.