DOF Reality black Friday sale coming up.

[Panzerlang]

It's always been the obscene cost of the shipping to Japan that's put me off (around £1000). Then the choice of which version and how that relates to movement. I know DCS has a lot more movement output than IL2, but even then is it worth the extra money to have six axis vs three or two? I'm thinking six would be massively overkill for IL2 and probably not justifiable even for DCS but any word on what Korea will bring to the table? Plus I would have it set up behind my desk and a six-axis would see that being very difficult, if not impossible.
I've also sent an email asking them what the difference is between the H and P versions, given that both now have the latest super-smooth motors and gearboxes. Then there's motion-compensation. DOF, very unhelpfully, make no mention of that on their website (that I can find), so I further assume there's no in-house implementation of it.

Anyway, dem's my ponderings. 🙃

[Panzerlang]

Chat-GPT says:

 

In the context of motion simulators, DOF Reality is a brand offering a range of motion platforms designed for virtual reality, flight simulation, racing simulation, and other immersive experiences. The "P" and "H" versions represent different series of motion platforms, with differences in capabilities, range of motion, and target applications. Here's a breakdown:

P-Series (Professional Series)

• Designed for prosumer and professional use.
• Typically offers 2-6 Degrees of Freedom (DOF), depending on the model.
• Features stronger actuators, allowing for greater payloads and smoother motion.
• Better suited for users who need higher precision and intensity for professional racing, flight simulation, or training purposes.
• Often more robust and durable, making it ideal for commercial applications.

H-Series (Home Series)

• Aimed at enthusiasts and home users.
• Offers a similar range of Degrees of Freedom (2-6 DOF) but may use less powerful actuators compared to the P-Series.
• Typically more affordable, making it accessible to hobbyists.
• Designed for lighter payloads, making it suitable for personal use or smaller setups.
• Ideal for users looking for a balance between performance and cost.

Key Differences

1. Build Quality: The P-Series is built for heavy-duty and professional use, while the H-Series is optimized for home environments.
2. Payload Capacity: P-Series can handle higher weights, making it suitable for multi-user scenarios or setups with additional hardware.
3. Cost: H-Series is more budget-friendly, while the P-Series comes with a higher price tag due to its enhanced capabilities.
4. Applications: The P-Series targets professionals and commercial operators, whereas the H-Series caters to hobbyists and home users.

If you're considering one, it comes down to your budget, use case, and whether you need the advanced capabilities of the P-Series.

[Aapje]

3 DOF seems to be the sweet spot. 6 DOF is twice as expensive, but certainly not twice as good. H3 also has other advantages like a smaller footprint and it seems to be safer. Motion compensation also seems much harder to get working right with 6 DOF.

 

For flight simming you should order the more expensive flight or universal version (which are the same, AFAIK), not the racing one that lacks the gear boxes and thus has cogging.

 

Apparently the only difference for the P3 is 40 watt stronger motors and slightly longer shafts, the latter of which is useless for flight simming. Seems like a big price increase for that.

 

With regards to applications, the landscape still seems fairly rough, where you have to buy third party apps as well to make things work, and then tune a lot. And hardware wise, you will also have to see how to fit things on there. I think I read somewhere that the Moza base that you have doesn't really fit properly with the default kit. I would look into that!

 

For the motion compensation, I've seen people use Witmotion sensors or connect a controller to their rig.

 

What I notice is that the hardware and software still seems to be in development quite a bit, so it all feels a bit too early adopter for me. My plan is to first adopt FFB in a while, once that market matures a bit, and then later on look into perhaps getting a motion platform.

 

To be honest, given how complicated motion rigs are and how early you seem to be in your research, I would suggest not rushing into it, but to focus on enjoying your Moza FFB base for now, and to spend the next year doing more research and figuring out what you actually need to make it all work and how you want it exactly.

[dgiatr]

11 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

Chat-GPT says:

 

In the context of motion simulators, DOF Reality is a brand offering a range of motion platforms designed for virtual reality, flight simulation, racing simulation, and other immersive experiences. The "P" and "H" versions represent different series of motion platforms, with differences in capabilities, range of motion, and target applications. Here's a breakdown:

P-Series (Professional Series)

• Designed for prosumer and professional use.
• Typically offers 2-6 Degrees of Freedom (DOF), depending on the model.
• Features stronger actuators, allowing for greater payloads and smoother motion.
• Better suited for users who need higher precision and intensity for professional racing, flight simulation, or training purposes.
• Often more robust and durable, making it ideal for commercial applications.

H-Series (Home Series)

• Aimed at enthusiasts and home users.
• Offers a similar range of Degrees of Freedom (2-6 DOF) but may use less powerful actuators compared to the P-Series.
• Typically more affordable, making it accessible to hobbyists.
• Designed for lighter payloads, making it suitable for personal use or smaller setups.
• Ideal for users looking for a balance between performance and cost.

Key Differences

1. Build Quality: The P-Series is built for heavy-duty and professional use, while the H-Series is optimized for home environments.
2. Payload Capacity: P-Series can handle higher weights, making it suitable for multi-user scenarios or setups with additional hardware.
3. Cost: H-Series is more budget-friendly, while the P-Series comes with a higher price tag due to its enhanced capabilities.
4. Applications: The P-Series targets professionals and commercial operators, whereas the H-Series caters to hobbyists and home users.

If you're considering one, it comes down to your budget, use case, and whether you need the advanced capabilities of the P-Series.

Hi ,

For almost a year now I own a dof reality  3p , daily use for at least 2 hours.

So :

1. If you are not heavy ( over 100 kgr )  you don't need a p3 version

2. Dof is very durable, not a problem at all till now, only minimum maintenance once a month.

3 You don't need 6 dof version, ( not motion compensation, far more expensive ). Ιn order to make my dof 3p,  a 6 dof version, I builded and added a diy pneumatic g-seat ( about 450-500 euros), it works fine in combination with the motion platform, only drawback i think, is that the total movement of the extra 3 axes is shorter than the original dof 6 axis platform

4. Sim Racing Studio program controls my platform and makes the motion compensation workload too ( in combination with witmotion sensor ). It works just fine but you have to pay about 20 euros every year to Srs in order to keep the motion compensation activated.

5. Works just fine with Rhino ffb base, not a problem at all..

 

Hope it helps...

[Panzerlang]

I'm 100kg nekid, so a bit on the heavy side (6' 5" tall). I watched an excellent tutorial on the Witmotion compensation and the bits are available on Amazon Japan.
I'm thinking of the 2-DOF P3 as the 3-DOF is around £1000 more and from a lot of videos I've watched, the sway function doesn't seem to add a great deal for planes. Even in cars a lot of users say they get a good feel of rear traction loss with just a 2-DOF. Waddaya reckon guys?
My Moza hasn't arrived yet. I've ordered the mounting plate to go with it and it appears it shouldn't take much more than a bit of drilling to get it fixed to the rig's plate. They told me it should ship on the 25th as there was a delay at their end of some materials.

Thanks for the input guys.

[Varibraun]

I have had my P3 for running for about 11 months now.  My short answer is that if you want to pull the trigger on motion with the upcoming sales, I would go with the "new" H3r flight model.  Based on everything I have seen over the past few months, I would save money by going with the H vs. P, but then based on my own experience I would invest the savings an H3 vs. H2.  I do really appreciate the Yaw axis when in WWI aircraft (I have it tuned in the SRS software so that I feel it).  I think you would always question not getting that 3rd axis.  

 

With that said, I actually agree with both @dgiatr and @Aapje above.  I enjoy the DoFR, but from the perspective of investment in the 4 "immersion hitters" for simming (VR, Hapticseat/Buttkickers, FFB, Motion), for me, motion brings the least bang for the buck.  So, like dgiatr, I am happy with the purchase (even though I had some challenges along the way, it is great now), but Aapje is correct that if you are REALLY on the fence, more research is never a bad thing.  I do think that DoF Reality has probably finally gotten it correct for flight with the SRS software and the Hr motors.  It is easier to assembly than building an actuator rig and probably more proven than the Yaw3 (and does have an upgrade path to 6 dof if you want that down the line).

 

40 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

I'm thinking of the 2-DOF P3 as the 3-DOF is around £1000 more and from a lot of videos I've watched, the sway function doesn't seem to add a great deal for planes. Even in cars a lot of users say they get a good feel of rear traction loss with just a 2-DOF. Waddaya reckon guys?

 

I think an H3r is currently the sweet spot for flight motion, easy motion compensation with the Wit, software with SRS, footprint, and price.  A photo of my current rig footprint/setup here:

 

Spoiler

 

 

14 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I know DCS has a lot more movement output than IL2, but even then is it worth the extra money to have six axis vs three or two? I'm thinking six would be massively overkill for IL2 and probably not justifiable even for DCS but any word on what Korea will bring to the table? Plus I would have it set up behind my desk and a six-axis would see that being very difficult, if not impossible.

 

I agree with your thinking here.  Plus, my YT exchange with Jeff Weaver from SRS who has used a P6 and an actuator system convinced me to hold off on upgrading from a DoF3 to a DoF6.  If I ever decide to go to 6 dof, it will be by investing and building an actuator system.  There are certainly different opinions on all of this, but I am currently very happy with the motion in 3dof.

 

 

14 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I've also sent an email asking them what the difference is between the H and P versions, given that both now have the latest super-smooth motors and gearboxes. Then there's motion-compensation. DOF, very unhelpfully, make no mention of that on their website (that I can find), so I further assume there's no in-house implementation of it.

 

As mentioned above, motion compensation is relatively easy with 3 dof in the SRS software and the Wit (it is not as effective for 6 dof).  The best information on Motion Compensation is in the SRS (Sim Racing Studio) knowledge base - it discusses OpenXR vs. SteamVR motion compensation setup.  I am only using OpenXR.  SRS is also working on a Beta solution in the software without the Wit, but I don't know how that is going because I have had no complaints in 3 dof with the Wit solution.

 

Finally, for what it's worth, I purchased the P version because of a good sale price last year, but I am now thinking about buying 3 of the Hr replacement motors to get the new smooth gear boxes ($300 for the Hr motors vs. $500 for the Pr).  The only reason I haven't ordered them yet is that I really don't notice the "cogging" when using all of my haptics and the Rhino FFB unless I focus on it.  

 

Good luck!

 

[dgiatr]

55 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

I have had my P3 for running for about 11 months now.  My short answer is that if you want to pull the trigger on motion with the upcoming sales, I would go with the "new" H3r flight model.  Based on everything I have seen over the past few months, I would save money by going with the H vs. P, but then based on my own experience I would invest the savings an H3 vs. H2.  I do really appreciate the Yaw axis when in WWI aircraft (I have it tuned in the SRS software so that I feel it).  I think you would always question not getting that 3rd axis.  

 

With that said, I actually agree with both @dgiatr and @Aapje above.  I enjoy the DoFR, but from the perspective of investment in the 4 "immersion hitters" for simming (VR, Hapticseat/Buttkickers, FFB, Motion), for me, motion brings the least bang for the buck.  So, like dgiatr, I am happy with the purchase (even though I had some challenges along the way, it is great now), but Aapje is correct that if you are REALLY on the fence, more research is never a bad thing.  I do think that DoF Reality has probably finally gotten it correct for flight with the SRS software and the Hr motors.  It is easier to assembly than building an actuator rig and probably more proven than the Yaw3 (and does have an upgrade path to 6 dof if you want that down the line).

 

 

I think an H3r is currently the sweet spot for flight motion, easy motion compensation with the Wit, software with SRS, footprint, and price.  A photo of my current rig footprint/setup here:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

I agree with your thinking here.  Plus, my YT exchange with Jeff Weaver from SRS who has used a P6 and an actuator system convinced me to hold off on upgrading from a DoF3 to a DoF6.  If I ever decide to go to 6 dof, it will be by investing and building an actuator system.  There are certainly different opinions on all of this, but I am currently very happy with the motion in 3dof.

 

 

 

As mentioned above, motion compensation is relatively easy with 3 dof in the SRS software and the Wit (it is not as effective for 6 dof).  The best information on Motion Compensation is in the SRS (Sim Racing Studio) knowledge base - it discusses OpenXR vs. SteamVR motion compensation setup.  I am only using OpenXR.  SRS is also working on a Beta solution in the software without the Wit, but I don't know how that is going because I have had no complaints in 3 dof with the Wit solution.

 

Finally, for what it's worth, I purchased the P version because of a good sale price last year, but I am now thinking about buying 3 of the Hr replacement motors to get the new smooth gear boxes ($300 for the Hr motors vs. $500 for the Pr).  The only reason I haven't ordered them yet is that I really don't notice the "cogging" when using all of my haptics and the Rhino FFB unless I focus on it.  

 

Good luck!

 

Very nice rig you have there  Varibraun well done!!! Hope you enjoy it.

 Indeed I think that yaw axis worth the extra money. You can feel it while taking off, landing, strong side winds, stalling, dogfighting, pushing hard rudder pedals...

Edited November 18, 2024 by dgiatr

[Varibraun]

2 hours ago, dgiatr said:

Indeed I think that yaw axis worth the extra money. You can feel it while taking off, landing, strong side winds, stalling, dogfighting, pushing hard rudder pedals...

 

100% Agree!

[WWBiker_]

Yaw man love my H3 .

[Panzerlang]

Thanks Varibraun, that's very helpful info.  If I go ahead I guess I'll spend the extra for the yaw on the P3. 

Fortunately I emailed them (cynicism saved the day again) to ask if one gets what's shown in the pictures and video for each machine. I was expecting a "yes" but better to be certain. Surely they wouldn't show, for instance, the Flight version of the P3 with the joystick & throttle mounts, and the metal gubbins-protector, unless that's how it comes? I mean, it is the "Flight" version after all. Oh yes they would. "You have to buy those extra". They do mention in the blurb that none of them come with a seat but nothing about the other stuff. I wonder how many people have blithely made their very-expensive shipping orders, only to find critical (and also expensive) parts weren't included. And for the money they don't even ensure multiple compatibility (I'm going to have to be cutting and drilling steel to get my seat and Moza fitted).
After all that getting my goat I think the Black Friday sale-discount they offer will be the decider. The only reason I'm able to countenance the Yen/Pound exchange-rate is I still have income from the UK. Plus VAT here is half what it is in the UK.

But I have already received the motion-compensation gizmo from Amazon, and completely rearranged my cave... 😁

[Panzerlang]

Hmm...it looks like an H or P6 will easily go under a desk if that steering-wheel frame is excluded (which I would for a flight-sim setup), especially as 12 castor-wheels can be fitted to it. I have an electric desk that can be raised for standing use, so there would be more than enough vertical space. Though I have absolutely NO IDEA why DoFR want $250 for twelve of what look like (their pics) bog-standard ones. I can get the same kind on Amazon for $10 for a pack of four ($40 for x12).

Yeah, having watched way too many videos so far it looks like DCS (at least) does justice to a 6-DOF. Ditto MSFS. IL2, not so sure.

 

Edited November 21, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Panzerlang]

So, more research, on motion-compensation. With 6-DOF, you really are pretty much screwed, the severity of which depends on which headset you use. With a Crystal you're going to have significant issues. The Witmotion reliably 'sees' only pitch and roll. You can't use the Crystal controllers and Pimax' software is, by all accounts, crap. The best solution, but with lesser headsets, is finding a way to mount a controller (zero vibration is critical).

So, serious conundrum...get the best motion compensation but the lesser motion or go with the best motion but have to cope with your head exiting the cockpit in combat manoeuvres. I guess a solution is go with 6-DOF and have faith the MC solutions will eventually catch up.
 

 

[Aapje]

You are clearly talking yourself into the H/P6, but keep in mind that you can upgrade the 3 to a 6.

 

I would think that having proper motion compensation is more important than the extra movement.

[dgiatr]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

You are clearly talking yourself into the H/P6, but keep in mind that you can upgrade the 3 to a 6.

 

I would think that having proper motion compensation is more important than the extra movement.

Without  proper motion compensation during hard dogfight  manoeuvres you should push many times the centering button in order to find yourself in the center of the cockpit.  That's what happens to me with g2 headset if I forget to a activate MC

[Aapje]

I think that would get old fast.

[Panzerlang]

I hear you guys and I'm fully aware of the risk, or even sheer folly. Lol.

Possibilities...I'm thinking, maybe, the Witmotion unit could be mounted with some angle on it to expose its gubbins to more than just pitch/roll forces. But that's with complete ignorance of how its gubbins actually work.
Apparently the Pimax controller CAN be used with the Pimax software but, as already stated, the software is regarded as somewhat crap. And hey, we all know by now how Pimax don't seem to think the software is a priority. My pass-through setting still turns itself off between sessions and it's been like that for months.

How long before somebody comes up with a dedicated 6-DOF motion tracker?
Regarding having a 3-DOF rig shipped and then paying again to have a full upgrade shipped (with parts at full price), that's munez. Lol.

Another option is to buy a more compliant/compatible headset and eat the poorer image quality...trade it off for the motion, so to speak, and wait for better solutions to materialize. I'm actually a little surprised that a solution hasn't already been provided by some innovative/entrepreneurial individual or company (why not the sellers of 6-DOF systems themselves?!).

I thought Black Friday was yesterday too. Lol. Another week to muse and ponder I guess. 

Thanks for the input guys.

How about this with Tundra base-stations?
Purchase | Pimax Crystal Lighthouse Faceplate

Edited November 23, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Aapje]

Apparently one of the issues is that the SRS software only supports motion compensation with 2 axis. So you might want to contact Sim Racing Studio to ask them about the possibility of supporting more. I would definitely not just buy it under the assumption that you can make it work, when a bunch of technically proficient people have played around with this and apparently never made something like that work.

 

Keep in mind that motion platforms are very much a niche product, and 6-DOF even more so. Sales probably increased quite a bit since COVID, but you can clearly see that the market is still very immature and this is even more true for motion platforms (and software) used for flight simming, rather than the more popular simracing. For example, DOF Reality has only managed to solve cogging quite recently. And we don't know whether this solution performs well long term, or whether we see any more fixes that require you to buy replacements to solve, like people have to do with the anti-cogging motors.

 

I still stand by my earlier recommendation to let things mature for another year, and focus on enjoying and tuning your Moza FFB base. That is immature and will require a lot of tuning and keeping up to date with the software updates and what the community comes up with. If you also get a motion simulator, you may spend more time tuning things than actually flying.

[dgiatr]

1 hour ago, Panzerlang said:

I hear you guys and I'm fully aware of the risk, or even sheer folly. Lol.

Possibilities...I'm thinking, maybe, the Witmotion unit could be mounted with some angle on it to expose its gubbins to more than just pitch/roll forces. But that's with complete ignorance of how its gubbins actually work.
Apparently the Pimax controller CAN be used with the Pimax software but, as already stated, the software is regarded as somewhat crap. And hey, we all know by now how Pimax don't seem to think the software is a priority. My pass-through setting still turns itself off between sessions and it's been like that for months.

How long before somebody comes up with a dedicated 6-DOF motion tracker?
Regarding having a 3-DOF rig shipped and then paying again to have a full upgrade shipped (with parts at full price), that's munez. Lol.

Another option is to buy a more compliant/compatible headset and eat the poorer image quality...trade it off for the motion, so to speak, and wait for better solutions to materialize. I'm actually a little surprised that a solution hasn't already been provided by some innovative/entrepreneurial individual or company (why not the sellers of 6-DOF systems themselves?!).

I thought Black Friday was yesterday too. Lol. Another week to muse and ponder I guess. 

Thanks for the input guys.

How about this with Tundra base-stations?
Purchase | Pimax Crystal Lighthouse Faceplate

Did you check flyPT mover software if it can support motion compensation with more than 2 axis? Flypt mover can control motion platforms like Srs or Simtools and it's more flight simming dedicated than the others

[Panzerlang]

Yeah, I already spend more time building and installing stuff than flying in it.
I've been down the rabbit-hole the last hour (two hours? Lol), trying to find solutions. Best one so far:

Mark from Get Your Game On has his 6-DOF working well, using a controller mounted to his seat (Quest3 headset I believe). In principle the same should be possible per the video above, Pimax Play has a setting for MC now. I don't think the video above features a 6-DOF system though.

3 minutes ago, dgiatr said:

Did you check flyPT mover software if it can support motion compensation with more than 2 axis? Flypt mover can control motion platforms like Srs or Simtools and it's more flight simming dedicated than the others

I did, it appears to be 2-DOF only.

Maybe the best solution (if I'm fool enough to buy the thing) is to stick to flying hot-air balloons.

[dgiatr]

24 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

Yeah, I already spend more time building and installing stuff than flying in it.
I've been down the rabbit-hole the last hour (two hours? Lol), trying to find solutions. Best one so far:

Mark from Get Your Game On has his 6-DOF working well, using a controller mounted to his seat (Quest3 headset I believe). In principle the same should be possible per the video above, Pimax Play has a setting for MC now. I don't think the video above features a 6-DOF system though.

I did, it appears to be 2-DOF only.

Maybe the best solution (if I'm fool enough to buy the thing) is to stick to flying hot-air balloons.

You should know that il2 doesn't give very high "heave" values of telemetry data, which is the most important dof of the 6 dof so if you want your motion platform exclusively for il2 I don't think 6 dof motion platform could justify  the extra cost going from 3 dof to 6 dof.

While flying in il2 I feel " heave" effects with my g-seat only while hard landing when the plane bounces up-down and while suffering from Heavy wing gusts nowhere else..

I have on purpose lowered max telemetry "heave" value in Simtools" which controls telemetry data from il2 and passes them to the servos of my diy pneumatic g-seat and yet don't get high heave effects ...I don't know what happens to DCS ...to be honest...

Edited November 23, 2024 by dgiatr

[Panzerlang]

 

34 minutes ago, dgiatr said:

You should know that il2 doesn't give very high "heave" values of telemetry data, which is the most important dof of the 6 dof so if you want your motion platform exclusively for il2 I don't think 6 dof motion platform could justify  the extra cost going from 3 dof to 6 dof.

While flying in il2 I feel " heave" effects with my g-seat only while hard landing when the plane bounces up-down and while suffering from Heavy wing gusts nowhere else..

I have on purpose lowered max telemetry "heave" value in Simtools" which controls telemetry data from il2 and passes them to the servos of my diy pneumatic g-seat and yet don't get high heave effects ...I don't know what happens to DCS ...to be honest...

 I do fly a lot of DCS and understand the motion-telemetry is far superior in that than IL2.

So duh! The chimp (me) finally got how to peel a banana...mount lighthouses ON the motion platform and then the headset is referencing the rig itself instead of stuff outside the rig and doesn't detect any movement other than the wearer's head relative to the rig itself.

Did I miss anything? 🤪

Edited November 23, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Panzerlang]

So, in that video above, his rig IS 6-DOF and he's using a standard Pimax controller in conjunction with Pimax MC. I tested it and with the controller turned on it can be selected in the Pimax MC window. I think that's it, IF the software works decently. No matter what motion the rig is doing, the headset is referencing the rig itself, via the controller, as effectively a static entity.

Almost too simple/good to be true and, knowing Pimax (despite the video above, where it appears to work perfectly), will probably work as well as a chocolate teapot.
Oh, cynical Pimaxian me.😐

Er...maybe I can mount the controller to my chair and spin in it to test it...

Omg, IT WORKS! And I didn't have to buy anything! 🥳

 

Edited November 23, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Varibraun]

On 11/23/2024 at 6:40 AM, Panzerlang said:

Regarding having a 3-DOF rig shipped and then paying again to have a full upgrade shipped (with parts at full price), that's munez. Lol.

 

Yeah...definitely agree if you think it is likely you will want to move to 6dof.  Knowing you may be spending that amount, have you considered a self build actuator system or is that impractical for your space?  Of course it would be a good bit more work to build, but pricing is likely in the same range as a P6:

 

https://eracing-lab.com/collections/rs-series/products/rs-ultimate

https://trakracer.com/collections/flight-simulators/products/tr160-mk4-flight-simulator

 

 

[Panzerlang]

Nice gear there but not practical in terms of daily use (plus the difficulty with space and my level of ability). The DoFR ticks a lot of boxes, other than cost of shipping.

[Varibraun]

On 11/23/2024 at 9:02 AM, Panzerlang said:

Omg, IT WORKS! And I didn't have to buy anything! 🥳

 

Also, by the time your H/P6 arrives, maybe SRS will have made progress on their software solution (IntelliComp) for motion compensation that is in beta:

 

 

https://www.simracingstudio.com/post/new-beta-available-multi-language-kayak-vr-game-and-much-more-2-34-0-0

[Panzerlang]

How weird is this, approx three hours ago I was explaining MC to my wife and opining that AI would be the solution to providing software without hardware for 6-DOF. 🥳

Thanks VB.

 

Meanwhile, still waiting for the Black Friday deal from DofR to arrive in my email. Lol. They did send a "5% off" code yesterday but that ain't it. Or, at least, I hope it isn't. The tiny website link that triggers the sign-up for the Black Friday deal ("you're now at the head of the list") says "15% OFF".

Edited November 26, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Aapje]

From what I've read, you should be able to combine the 5% code with the Black Friday discount.

[Panzerlang]

28 minutes ago, Aapje said:

From what I've read, you should be able to combine the 5% code with the Black Friday discount.

Yes, I read elsewhere that codes can be 'stacked' but I'm not sure they'd like being held to that (seems a bit shady if they never intended it).

[Panzerlang]

I've no idea why they pretend the Black Friday deal is a special email-only thing, when the -15% price was up on their website hours before I got the email.

Anyway, I ordered the P6 with extra support struts, HOTAS kit and the E-Button. The 15% off covered most of the shipping. I've asked the max weight the pedal-plate can take, as I'm looking at GV's FFB pedals (in for a penny etc). Moza are still dicking me around with the refund for their stick-base but I think I'll be going for the FFBeast too.

Point-Ctrl widgets are on their way (I got lucky and spotted an unused, two-weeks old set up for sale).

Now to order a seat. I already have an old NLR one but it's rather heavy.

With any luck I'll be getting thrown through the wall in time for xmas. 

Edited November 27, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Panzerlang]

FMG, it never rains but it pours. After putting in my order for the P6 yesterday (on their website) I got a page with a link to "Your Order Status". When I clicked it, it went to a page with an error message, "Sorry, order not found". Meanwhile I'd received a receipt in my email, with the amount in US dollars that didn't match what I'd paid in Yen (it was over $400 over the odds). In dollars it was $8776, the Yen amount (Y1,405,000) was $9194. And no, the exchange-rate didn't go mentally volatile right as I was buying the goodies.
I mentioned both these matters to Alex at DOF-Reality, he came back with "What order?" 

Currently I'm awaiting a reply to my replies, having sent him the link to the order confirmation page, a screenie of the receipt and a screenie of my bank statement. Everything has the correct company name and the URLs are all correct. My guess for a worst-case scenario is they've been hacked. Best case, it's a temporary snafu. However, why was I charged $400 more in Yen than my receipt in dollars shows? That can't be accounted for by exchange commission, surely?

I'm considering the possibility I've been chatting with fake geezers for weeks who have managed to spoof an entire website AND its URL and email. 😱

[Panzerlang]

Found out where the $400 went at least. My bank charges 3.6% on foreign purchases, Visa charges another 1%. I'll be closing my account with them.

[Panzerlang]

No reply from them since my first reply five hours ago. It's now 10.30am over there, they've had more than enough time to at least contact their payment processor (Stripe). I've asked on their discord for the CEO's email, Igor Demenchuk. I don't suppose anyone here has it?

Last email to them, over an hour ago:

"Hi Viktor.
Well, I know there was nothing you could do over there before the banks here closed for the day. I know I'm not liable for whatever's happened, I put my order through your correctly-URL'ed website (as you can see from the order confirmation page). Either you've been hacked or Stripe's screwed something up. None the less, I'll have a stab at getting my bank to retrieve the funds tomorrow but I seriously doubt that'll be possible, which will leave you having to make good on it.
Kind regards."

W...T...F.

Edited November 28, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Panzerlang]

Nine hours later, a reply. Apparently their systems went down and their support staff are on a shift, which means leaving a nonsensical and panic-inducing email before signing off for nine hours is perfectly ok. Then a rude email from one (absolutely no doubt from an Indian call-center at this point), followed by escalation to somebody in Europe, asking how they can "make it right", followed by a refund.

As I explained to 'James' (who knows what his real name is...maybe his mother), this is the era of the SCAM and EVERYONE is on constant high-alert. A few red flags (and trust me, this whole clusterfk was a red-flag factory) and one goes onto defcon eleventy eleven. Lol. One of 'their' guys asking me "Which mailbox did you make your order from. Order document. Send it to me." Then nothing. For nine hours. Bearing in mind that the nine hours was EU open-hours and the pretence by their Indian call-center is that everyone is European and have appropriate names (Alex, Victor, Andy, James) but desperately naff English language ability. So I figured I was dealing with guys in Europe. Well done, DOF Reality, your cheap Indian-call-center just cost you $9000 of business. 

The wife's quite chuffed of course. 🤣

[Aapje]

On 11/28/2024 at 3:57 PM, Panzerlang said:

As I explained to 'James' (who knows what his real name is...maybe his mother), this is the era of the SCAM and EVERYONE is on constant high-alert. A few red flags (and trust me, this whole clusterfk was a red-flag factory) and one goes onto defcon eleventy eleven.

I actually don't think that other people as as much on constant high alert as you are. I think that in this case, it doesn't make that much sense to assume that a company that keeps delivering product to customers, and who keeps investing in improving their product, would suddenly decide to scam you for a 'mere' $9000. So I think that you were too eager to jump to the conclusion that you have been scammed, rather than more logical conclusions.

 

When you order from abroad, you need to keep in mind that there are cultural differences. I would say that Eastern Europe doesn't have a strong reputation for social niceties in business, which is different to the US and even more so, Japan. So what you may consider unacceptable, may be a normal interaction to them. Note that in certain cultures, a very high level of social niceties which tends to come at the expense of honesty, is actually not considered to be a good thing.

 

Also, Black Friday is of course very demanding for most companies, so poorer service during this time is to be expected.

 

I've also kept track of DOF Reality and I know that they don't have the best customer service, and they seem to at least in part intentionally do that to keep their prices relatively low. They also seem to be a relatively small company that is trying to make themselves look bigger than they are, but they really can't compare to big, professional companies.

 

Of course you may have high standards for customer service, but I notice that you seem to buy even very expensive things after doing way, way, way less research & consideration than I would do for such a purchase. I think that the combination of doing relatively little research and having high standards is a recipe for disappointment.

[dgiatr]

38 minutes ago, Aapje said:

I actually don't think that other people as as much on constant high alert as you are. I think that in this case, it doesn't make that much sense to assume that a company that keeps delivering product to customers, and who keeps investing in improving their product, would suddenly decide to scam you for a 'mere' $9000. So I think that you were too eager to jump to the conclusion that you have been scammed, rather than more logical conclusions.

 

When you order from abroad, you need to keep in mind that there are cultural differences. I would say that Eastern Europe doesn't have a strong reputation for social niceties in business, which is different to the US and even more so, Japan. So what you may consider unacceptable, may be a normal interaction to them. Note that in certain cultures, a very high level of social niceties which tends to come at the expense of honesty, is actually not considered to be a good thing.

 

Also, Black Friday is of course very demanding for most companies, so poorer service during this time is to be expected.

 

I've also kept track of DOF Reality and I know that they don't have the best customer service, and they seem to at least in part intentionally do that to keep their prices relatively low. They also seem to be a relatively small company that is trying to make themselves look bigger than they are, but they really can't compare to big, professional companies.

 

Of course you may have high standards for customer service, but I notice that you seem to buy even very expensive things after doing way, way, way less research & consideration than I would do for such a purchase. I think that the combination of doing relatively little research and having high standards is a recipe for disappointment.

I have done business with them when I got my dof 3p and never had any problem...

[WWBiker_]

Yes I also have had nothing but good interactions before and after purchasing my H3

[Panzerlang]

5 hours ago, Aapje said:

I actually don't think that other people as as much on constant high alert as you are. I think that in this case, it doesn't make that much sense to assume that a company that keeps delivering product to customers, and who keeps investing in improving their product, would suddenly decide to scam you for a 'mere' $9000. So I think that you were too eager to jump to the conclusion that you have been scammed, rather than more logical conclusions.

 

When you order from abroad, you need to keep in mind that there are cultural differences. I would say that Eastern Europe doesn't have a strong reputation for social niceties in business, which is different to the US and even more so, Japan. So what you may consider unacceptable, may be a normal interaction to them. Note that in certain cultures, a very high level of social niceties which tends to come at the expense of honesty, is actually not considered to be a good thing.

 

Also, Black Friday is of course very demanding for most companies, so poorer service during this time is to be expected.

 

I've also kept track of DOF Reality and I know that they don't have the best customer service, and they seem to at least in part intentionally do that to keep their prices relatively low. They also seem to be a relatively small company that is trying to make themselves look bigger than they are, but they really can't compare to big, professional companies.

 

Of course you may have high standards for customer service, but I notice that you seem to buy even very expensive things after doing way, way, way less research & consideration than I would do for such a purchase. I think that the combination of doing relatively little research and having high standards is a recipe for disappointment.

You may have got the impression I did very little research but I've been on the motion-platform ride for at least three years. I was always quite luke-warm on it though, plus the shipping was/is a huge consideration.

As for scammer high alert, lol. It's relative I guess. I don't know how bad it is elsewhere but in the UK...seriously bad and small companies are the worst. I've avoided being done, numerous times, solely because of my 'paranoia'. Or I've recovered my money only because of rage motivating me to go massively beyond what's considered 'normal' behaviour. To put it another way, if your immune-system is constantly running at full-whack, you're much less likely to catch the flu. Lol. Sometimes it's off-target but I'd rather get it wrong occasionally than be complacent and suffer a big hit.

I clearly ran head-on into an order edge-mechanic with DOF (a rare anomaly); their system crashed AND their Indian call-center was incompetent beyond belief. But the real kicker was the way DOF handled it on the back-end. Dismissive arrogance with a huge helping of contempt. THAT is unacceptable behaviour. If you, as a company, massively screw sht up, OWN IT. And a small company going bust and milking the final orders before vanishing, not at all rare in the UK. So yeah, I reacted, with alacrity, to try and prevent as many others being done-over too.

This is not only the era of the scam, however; it also appears to be the era of small-to-medium companies no longer considering the customer king, it's all about them and their revenue-stream. "We've got your money, STFU and be grateful we're selling you our product". Case in point? A big one? Pimax. Hundreds of cases. Not tens, HUNDREDS. Moza, promising weeks on delivery, turning into months. The 'pandemic' started the ball rolling...stuff became like unicorn horns and the companies became king, with customers rolling over for a chance to be 'on the list'.

I'm not particularly bothered, it was kind of an itch I wanted to scratch. I at least got the seat and I'm now halfway through building the base for it, which will include an improvement for the LFEs. FFBeast is on the way too.