I-16 Flaps for normal flight ?

[peterk1]

Just wondering if any other of you fine virtual pilots do this....

 

I've been having a bad time flying the I-16. Not combat necessarily.....just flying in formation to/from the mission areas. Normally I use trim to get my plane in a stable state and then I tend to make minor corrections with the throttle and rudder to stay in position.

 

I-16 doesn't have any trim controls so it's tough to fly level. You need to pull back slightly on the stick to keep the nose up or it'll just fall out of the sky. And it also loves to roll over to the left/right. I just don't have the stick stamina to keep the thing stable for a 30 min flight to target. It has been just pure torture.

 

Tonight I experimented with keeping a tiny bit of flap down (between 1-10%) to see if that would help. It did and I finally had a pleasant flight in the plane!  Also kept the flaps down during some combat and it also helped keep the plane more stable while shooting even though I'm sure it ate into my top speed a little.

 

Anyone else use flaps in the I-16 or is there a different trick to use to have fun flying this plane?

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 hours ago, peterk1 said:

so it's tough to fly level

 

2 hours ago, peterk1 said:

Anyone else use flaps in the I-16 or is there a different trick to use to have fun flying this plane?

 

You can always use pitch curve and set it to level flight in cruise mode. 

[Raptorattacker]

In real-life they were incredibly unstable so...
It IS a simulation!

Edited October 26, 2024 by Raptorattacker

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 minute ago, Raptorattacker said:

In real-life they were incredibly unstable so...

In real life some pilots were using rubber band to give hand a rest 😂

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

Edit; I wrote my comment too fast, you were talking about flaps I do not use them on normal flight.

 

I have 10cm joystick extension + weaker joystick spring = that makes I-16 (and other planes) easy to fly, and easy to target something.

I do trimm planes too, but I have always one hand on stick.

 

Sometimes too much reality does not work good in simms, i.E. we shoot 1000 times more then real pilots, that means we need easy-to-press trigger, and not same as in real planes. 

See what suits you the best, and set that (maybe different joystick, extension, springs, gear position, chair, desk...). Sometimes small change makes your play much easier and more enjoyable.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2024 by TCW_Brzi_Joe

[peterk1]

3 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

In real-life they were incredibly unstable so...
It IS a simulation!

 

In real life I bet they squeezed the stick with their legs to lock it where they wanted it

I'm going to keep using the low flaps for a while to see how it goes.

 

Does anyone else try to get injured on purpose on landing so you get sent to hospital instead of having to fly this thing? 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

I haven't flown the GB I-16 in a while but I don't remember having problems like those described. Landings are tame compared to the DCS I-16. I've used a VKB base with 20cm extension, now using a 10cm instead. Never needed flaps to maintain level flight.

[Dagwoodyt]

Just rechecked and set axis curves for an I-16 custom profile. With same heavy springs used for previous 20cm extension very minimal back pressure to keep level cruise flight. Right wrist rests on my thigh with center stick setup so corrections are essentially "finger tip". Seems docile in roll axis.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[peterk1]

I'm on a crappy Thrustmaster and the pots like to throw little left/right signals out at random. I'm too lazy to open it up and try to clean it. Going to pick up a VKB when the TB becomes unusable.

 

Just curious. What is the goal of the custom profile? What parts of the curve are you tweaking? Are you somehow setting that profile to give you the level flight baked in? Isn't that going to cause problems when you do start fighting and you want a little more freedom and don't want the plane held up any more?

Edited October 27, 2024 by peterk1

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, peterk1 said:

I'm on a crappy Thrustmaster and the pots like to throw little left/right signals out at random. I'm too lazy to open it up and try to clean it. Going to pick up a VKB when the TB becomes unusable.

 

Just curious. What is the goal of the custom profile? What parts of the curve are you tweaking? Are you somehow setting that profile to give you the level flight baked in? Isn't that going to cause problems when you do start fighting and you want a little more freedom and don't want the plane held up any more?

All I did for purpose of test was to set neutral points for pitch, roll and yaw and save them to an I-16 custom profile as below:

 

Edited October 27, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[GasTeddy]

10 hours ago, peterk1 said:

I'm on a crappy Thrustmaster and the pots like to throw little left/right signals out at random. I'm too lazy to open it up and try to clean it.

 

Had same in my previous stick. Little bit dead zone in center helped. Now I have TM16000 & TWCS throttle. Mini stick in throttle did some weird things but small drop of WT40 tamed it. I use it to rotate view all around.

[Aleksander55]

Autopilot. Level autopilot.

 

 

Is it really possible to fly that ultra tight formation with the crazy AI? No matter the plane?

 

On 10/26/2024 at 10:59 AM, peterk1 said:

 

Does anyone else try to get injured on purpose on landing so you get sent to hospital instead of having to fly this thing? 

 

 Hospital. Gulag.

[Dagwoodyt]

I guess some are flying the I-16 with "twist grip" rudder control.

[peterk1]

4 hours ago, Aleksander55 said:

Autopilot. Level autopilot.

Is it really possible to fly that ultra tight formation with the crazy AI? No matter the plane?

 

I try to stay away from the auto level. Might turn it on to go to the bathroom.

Instead of sticking yourself in the middle of the AI formation in your assigned spot, you can just slide in to the side of formation at a safe distance.

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I guess some are flying the I-16 with "twist grip" rudder control.

 

Not me. That "twist" thing on the Thrustmaster broke after about 100 hours of use. Supposedly it's a horrible design. It's intended to break quickly.

Shifted the rudder controls over to a see-saw paddle on the throttle.

 

Anyways. very happy to have finally gotten off to a good start in a Russian campaign. I think my guy has survived 2 weeks or so, so far.

 

It's pretty frustrating. I'm in a squadron that has both Mig-3s and I-16s and the AI squadron commander keeps giving me a few missions in the Mig (which I love) and then shifts me back to the I-16, which I hate.

[R33GZ]

21 hours ago, peterk1 said:

Are you somehow setting that profile to give you the level flight baked in? Isn't that going to cause problems when you do start fighting and you want a little more freedom

Yes, it does. It means when you're at cruise power settings it should fly nicely as if its trimmed, but once you stray from those engine settings it will be out of trim and fighting you again

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, R33GZ said:

Yes, it does. It means when you're at cruise power settings it should fly nicely as if its trimmed, but once you stray from those engine settings it will be out of trim and fighting you again

How do you decide that the I-16 is fighting you? Does it buck, stall, spin or exhibit some other uncommanded behavior?🤔

Edited October 28, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[peterk1]

It goes nose down/up pretty aggressively.

 

I took everyone's advice and worked up a little I-16 custom profile for myself and tested it in a quiet area in the Quick Battles. Worked very well.

 

Then I fired up my career mode and got assigned a mission where I was carrying two 100 lb bombs, flying into a 100 km/h headwind and had a flight leader who insisted on having the group move at 250 km/h - probably to save fuel, this thing also runs out of fuel pretty easily. Suffice it to say we went back to being super unstable again even with the profile.

 

The good news is I died twice doing that mission. I give myself three lives for career mode missions, so I've got one left. If I fail again when I play tonight, then I won't have to fly the I-16 any more for a while!

Edited October 28, 2024 by peterk1

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I16 has most realistic flight model, it actually stall and spin if you force accelerated stall, most planes are not like that, who know why? When 190A3 did that, after complaints was changed and now stall is just a wing drop....

 

Edited October 28, 2024 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I would set the neutral point in the settings rather than use flap. Flaps add too much drag and it is highly unrealistic use them in this way. Don't even get me started on people that constantly flap in combat.

[peterk1]

22 minutes ago, -TBC-AeroAce said:

I would set the neutral point in the settings rather than use flap. Flaps add too much drag and it is highly unrealistic use them in this way. Don't even get me started on people that constantly flap in combat.

 

Yeah, but as I mentioned, the profile doesn't really work.

if you get assigned a mission with bombs your profile is out the window and the nose is dropping like crazy again.

Sure you can make a profile to account for the bombs but then you get screwed again the second you drop your bombs.

 

And your profile can also get messed up by heavy wind or the speed that your flight leader wants to do the approach at.

 

Profile helps, but in the end you need to rely on your right hand or flaps or a combination.

 

===============

 

In the documentation for the I-16, I think it mentions that there was a stabilizer that could be set by the crew before takeoff. Looks like we don't have access to that setting? Or maybe the profile subs in for that?

 

Edited October 28, 2024 by peterk1

[Dagwoodyt]

Ideally, for the I-16, it would be best to have rudder pedals with analog right and left toe brake axes. More importantly for the DCS module, but also for the GB iteration. Controller' misbehavior should not be mistaken for inherent defects in a module or the aircraft modeled.

[Vendigo]

It's strange because I mostly fly the I-16 and I never experience any oddities like this. Level flight in a rata seems the easiest thing to do.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Vendigo

[LukeFF]

56 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Ideally, for the I-16, it would be best to have rudder pedals with analog right and left toe brake axes. More importantly for the DCS module, but also for the GB iteration. Controller' misbehavior should not be mistaken for inherent defects in a module or the aircraft modeled.

 

Our I-16 has independent toe brakes.

[Dagwoodyt]

21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Our I-16 has independent toe brakes.

Yes and that's the way I've set up toe brakes in DCS and in Il-2 GB. Use of the toe brakes seems a more critical skill in the DCS I-16 though.☺️

[BlitzPig_EL]

Can you not just fly the thing as it is, like the real pilots did?

 

Seems simple enough to me.

[Dagwoodyt]

I became fascinated with the I-16 before it was even made flyable in Oleg's OG Il-2😊

[AndyJWest]

14 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I became fascinated with the I-16 before it was even made flyable in Oleg's OG Il-2😊

 

Quite right too. Even without its war record, it merits a place in history as the first cantilever monoplane fighter with retractable landing gear. Whether it started a trend, rather than being just the first to arrive amongst multiple similar concepts being developed independently is debatable, but there isn't much room to debate that it was a significant technological achievement. If you want to make sense of the complicated development history of WW2 piston-engined fighters, the I-16 is where you have to start. In some ways, with hindsight, it could be presented as an example of how not to do it, but that's one of the consequences of being first.

[R33GZ]

4 hours ago, peterk1 said:

that there was a stabilizer that could be set by the crew before takeoff

Yes, most aircraft have them, a small tab on the control surface. This is effectively what you are doing by adjusting your controller profile.

 

I think you're better off using a heavy hand in cruise settings, so it remains responsive when in combat. Having said that I don't really fly the little beast very often

[BlitzPig_EL]

In actual service the ground adjustable elevator trim tab would have been set to make level flight at nominal cruise speed easier on the pilot,  It was not adjusted otherwise.

[peterk1]

21 hours ago, Vendigo said:

It's strange because I mostly fly the I-16 and I never experience any oddities like this. Level flight in rata seems an easiest thing to do.

 

You can do it easily for 30+ minutes on the way to a target and then 30+ minutes on the way back? Flying with the AI at 250 kph?

 

I have a feeling you guys are all doing it in multiplayer where you're in and out of combat quickly and flying fast.

[Dagwoodyt]

15 hours ago, peterk1 said:

You can do it easily for 30+ minutes on the way to a target and then 30+ minutes on the way back? Flying with the AI at 250 kph?

 

I have a feeling you guys are all doing it in multiplayer where you're in and out of combat quickly and flying fast.

With your controller setup, maybe not. I can understand your frustration though.

[Aleksander55]

15 hours ago, peterk1 said:

You can do it easily for 30+ minutes on the way to a target and then 30+ minutes on the way back? Flying with the AI at 250 kph?

 

I have a feeling you guys are all doing it in multiplayer where you're in and out of combat quickly and flying fast.

Are you sure they are at 250kmh? It may be a bug, normal cruise speed for the I-16s under AI command is 350kmh.

 

You might also start as unit commander and setup faster cruise speed for the waypoints even if you're not leading the mission. Obviously, don't do it if you want a career progression.

[peterk1]

1 hour ago, Aleksander55 said:

Are you sure they are at 250kmh? It may be a bug, normal cruise speed for the I-16s under AI command is 350kmh.

 

You might also start as unit commander and setup faster cruise speed for the waypoints even if you're not leading the mission. Obviously, don't do it if you want a career progression.

 

Yeah. I just did a bunch of career missions in the I-16 doing ground support tonight.

On the first little outbound leg, the flight leader's speed is an agonizing 230-240 km/h. Then after we hit the first waypoint, halfway to the target, they tend to bump up to 280 which is a decent speed with bombs.

 

I'm going to keep settings as they are. One of the fun things I try to do in career mode is to become the squadron commander on merit, so I wouldn't want to take that role right from the beginning.

 

I've been trying to poke around a little to see if the actual pilots ever deployed flaps. It seems like such a natural thing to do with no enemy in the air and no fuel concerns, especially when carrying the bombs. Didn't find much except for one reference that said the I-16 was impossible to fly "hands off".

 

I-16 aside. Russian career modes starting in Moscow, whatever plane you're in are absolutely brutal. Love this game. it's like stepping into a time machine.

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by peterk1

[Vendigo]

15 hours ago, peterk1 said:

You can do it easily for 30+ minutes on the way to a target and then 30+ minutes on the way back? Flying with the AI at 250 kph?

 

I have a feeling you guys are all doing it in multiplayer where you're in and out of combat quickly and flying fast.

I only play offline, mostly my own missions with I-16, and btw speaking about the AI leader speed - I've noticed that since several patches back the AI don't climb to set altitude like they're supposed to; instead the AI leader would travel the first 5 - 7 kilometers at just around 250-260 kph, which is kind of frustrating (even though the Waypoint sets the speed at 360-380 kph). This happens when the AI is supposed to gain altitude (about 3 - 4 km) just after takeoff.

But apart from that, keeping an I-16 in a level flight is easy, be it with bombs or not...

[Aleksander55]

12 hours ago, peterk1 said:

Yeah. I just did a bunch of career missions in the I-16 doing ground support tonight.

On the first little outbound leg, the flight leader's speed is an agonizing 230-240 km/h. Then after we hit the first waypoint, halfway to the target, they tend to bump up to 280 which is a decent speed with bombs.

 

I'm going to keep settings as they are. One of the fun things I try to do in career mode is to become the squadron commander on merit, so I wouldn't want to take that role right from the beginning.

 

I've been trying to poke around a little to see if the actual pilots ever deployed flaps. It seems like such a natural thing to do with no enemy in the air and no fuel concerns, especially when carrying the bombs. Didn't find much except for one reference that said the I-16 was impossible to fly "hands off".

 

I-16 aside. Russian career modes starting in Moscow, whatever plane you're in are absolutely brutal. Love this game. it's like stepping into a time machine.

 

Normal cruise speed is 350kmh even with bombs, give or take IAS variation with altitude. Normal cruise altitude for ground attack missions is 1000 or 1500 meters. This in the official pilot career.

 

Also notice that the formation process is extremely slow due to AI flaws. It can take up to 20+ kilometers depending on the wind and direction of take-off.

 

If I remember correctly lower speeds and higher altitudes happened in Pat Wilson's campaign generator. If it's not this that you're playing there really might be something wrong with your setup.