Halberstadt D.II Engine Management?

[North_Wolf]

I decided to start a solo career with the early german planes and I had a confusing experience with the Halberstadt D.II.  I am good with CEM these days so I checked in game documentation and scanned for discussions, but the plane has very little discussion.

 

There is no engine management as far as I can tell and no mention of the duration that you can run at full throttle.  I found the engine cutting out and dying on me after an extended dogfight where I dont think I took any hits.

 

This led me to wonder what went wrong, does it heat up at full throttle?  Or did diving perhaps cool it down?  Tecnochat gives no indication.

 

Its not impossible that I took a hit and I suppose I will figure this out with more air time in it, but I figured it was worth asking since someone here is propably familiar with it.  I´m hoping to enjoy a long session in VR tonight so it would be nice to know before hand. 

[Patricks]

5 minutes ago, North_Wolf said:

I decided to start a solo career with the early german planes and I had a confusing experience with the Halberstadt D.II.  I am good with CEM these days so I checked in game documentation and scanned for discussions, but the plane has very little discussion.

 

There is no engine management as far as I can tell and no mention of the duration that you can run at full throttle.  I found the engine cutting out and dying on me after an extended dogfight where I dont think I took any hits.

 

This led me to wonder what went wrong, does it heat up at full throttle?  Or did diving perhaps cool it down?  Tecnochat gives no indication.

 

Its not impossible that I took a hit and I suppose I will figure this out with more air time in it, but I figured it was worth asking since someone here is propably familiar with it.  I´m hoping to enjoy a long session in VR tonight so it would be nice to know before hand. 

 

Usually (for me anyway) WWI engine damage is caused by over-revs due to diving while at full throttle..

Edited October 1, 2024 by Patricks

[Zooropa_Fly]

To the best of my knowledge and memory, in RoF you could run the planes at full throttle indefinately without any problems.

In FC that's not the case, so it's best to back off to 80-85% every once in a while.

No chance you could have caught a hit from flak ?

 

S!

 

[North_Wolf]

Thanks for the replies guys, I do think I went into a dive with engines on full not that long before this happened, I was paying attention to the sounds of the wings creaking or haptic feedback to warn me of structural issues (HF8 with simshaker wings).

 

Tecnochat does not warn on over rev, is there a noticeable audio cue?

 

The AI seems to run on at least 95% throttle, forcing me to keep 100% to catch up if I drift or bank to look around, so its hard to avoid over doing full throttle.  I´m now curious on this, I think I will check with auto pilot once I have downtime and can keep the sim running.  In the WWII era I am very aware of how long I can torture the engine for (since its in the specs).

 

I used to fly in ROF for a while and back then I had a very dim concept of CEM so it checks out that it was more forgiving.  😄  I´m quite happy with IL2 and FC lately since I have started to get a "feel" for so many things that I did not grasp before (like adjusting the prop to balance out the engine performance, rather then feeling overwhelmed trying to read/understand strings of numbers relating to it).  

 

I dont think flak was the issue, engine started warning me of trouble ahead of time, I could hear/feel that something was up before it went into dying sputters (maybe a 1-2min process) just after I regained altidute after a kill.

 

A long time ago I had a german campaign going in Red Baron 3D (I flew allies on the big war server) that felt like eons to finish, its fun to revisit that.

[US103_Baer]

@North_Wolf From your description i'd say 99% its over-revving. The engine will run rough for a bit and you'll trail a dark smokey exhaust. Then it'll conk out.

Keep the revs under the red line limit on the tachometer, basically throttle back whenever you go downhill and be gentle with reapplying full throttle. These things don't have constant speed props, the prop is directly connected to the crankshaft.

The Halb DII has its tachometer right up in front of you, so it should be easy to keep an eye on!

[I/JG53_Kurtz]

8 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

To the best of my knowledge and memory, in RoF you could run the planes at full throttle indefinately without any problems.

In FC that's not the case, so it's best to back off to 80-85% every once in a while.

No chance you could have caught a hit from flak ?

 

S!

 

I don't think so, even in ROF the overrev was simulated, for example with Mercedes DIII motor was needed to limit the time at 1600 rpm to avoid engine damage.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Sorry I wasn't quite clear enough there.. I meant once mixture was set (at stated max), you could run full throttle without worry.

That's not the case in FC.

 

S!

[North_Wolf]

3 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

@North_Wolf From your description i'd say 99% its over-revving. The engine will run rough for a bit and you'll trail a dark smokey exhaust. Then it'll conk out.

Keep the revs under the red line limit on the tachometer, basically throttle back whenever you go downhill and be gentle with reapplying full throttle. These things don't have constant speed props, the prop is directly connected to the crankshaft.

The Halb DII has its tachometer right up in front of you, so it should be easy to keep an eye on!

 The case of the dead Halberstadt rookie has been solved.  😄

 

I was able to leave the sim running for 45min at max throttle, there was supposed to be a thermometer, but I was unable to locate it (using mouse since VR was off).  Anyone know where the shows up?  No issues in prolonged flight it seems.

 

I also tested long dives with throttle down to see if cooling was a factor (it did not apperar to be so my own guess was wrong).

 

Over rev was the issue, I tested once I got home and I was able to kill the engine fast in a steep dive.  Testing further I was able to confirm that engine damage if I pulled out of the dive earlier, keeping the tacometer at max (1600 rpm) for a few second is enough to cause engine damage, that will cause the black smoke described above.

 

I found it interesting that I was able to fly in level flight (for at least a few min) at full throttle with a lowered output but as soon as I throttled down a bit then the engine died instantly.  My gut instict to protect the engine by throttling down had a reverse effect.

 

Thanks guys, its great being able to learn from these types of discussions.

 

S!

 

Edited October 1, 2024 by North_Wolf

[LukeFF]

Not at my computer right now so I cannot check, but I think the engine thermometer is an optional mod - and even then you'll probably have to zoom in to see what it's indicating, since it's positioned pretty far away from the pilot.

[North_Wolf]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Not at my computer right now so I cannot check, but I think the engine thermometer is an optional mod - and even then you'll probably have to zoom in to see what it's indicating, since it's positioned pretty far away from the pilot.

I managed to locate it, its near the front of the engine on the outside but in the central view of the pilot.  The Halb seems happy at 50c and not heating up.

 

I re did the failed mission and had a fantastic time.

 

The immersion is amazing in VR, watching the pistons dancing up and down in front of me and wondering how unhealthy the exhust vent might be placed next to my head.  😄

[=IRFC=Gascan]

One of the most common causes of engine damage is over-revving (depending on the pilot, this may be more or less common than enemy fire). There appears to be two different key numbers: the max continuous RPM (at which you can run the engine forever without breaking it) and the max instantaneous RPM (at which the engine will instantly break). If you're above the max continuous but below the max instantaneous, the engine will take damage after some time. Different planes take different times to take damage and demonstrate the damage differently. Some planes (like the Sopwith Dolphin and the Siemens Shuckert) are very sensitive and will break almost instantly if you go over the continuous limit for any length of time. Some engines will break and start to run rough immediately when you over-speed them, then lose power until they seize several minutes later. Some will sound normal for a bit after you violate the limit, but will break 30 seconds to a minute later and start to run rough. You'll wonder why your engine died, then think back to the fight and realize you over-revved it during a short dive, and that's why you're gliding back home. There are some that are almost impossible to get to the max continuous RPM.

Temperature is a slightly different beast than RPM. Overheating can cause engine failure. Remember that planes with a water radiator will start to steam if they get the water too hot, but this boiling actually keeps the engine from truly overheating until the water has boiled away. The same applies if your radiator gets a few holes in it: it will stream while steam until the radiator is empty, then the engine will actually overheat and seize. The thermometer you see is the water temperature, not the engine block. You can mitigate this by running the engine rich, which will reduce power but will also cause the engine to run cooler and give you more time before it fully overheats and fails.

Overcooling doesn't directly damage the engine. It reduces the engine power and reduces the max continuous RPM before damage. If overcooled, remember that the normal max RPM is now lower, so you need to be more careful of overspeeding the engine. For planes without radiators (especially rotaries), you can run the engine lean to help warm it up.

Edited October 2, 2024 by =IRFC=Gascan
minor clarifications

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

40 minutes ago, =IRFC=Gascan said:

One of the most common causes of engine damage is over-revving (depending on the pilot, this may be more or less common than enemy fire). There appears to be two different key numbers: the max continuous RPM (at which you can run the engine forever without breaking it) and the max instantaneous RPM (at which the engine will instantly break). Different planes handle things differently when you exceed the continuous limit. Some planes (like the Sopwith Dolphin and the Siemens Shuckert) are very sensitive and will break almost instantly if you go over the continuous limit for any length of time. Some (like the Albatros D.Va, Pfalz D.IIIa, and even the Sopwith Camel) will overspeed for a bit, but will break 30 seconds to a minute later. You'll wonder why your engine died, then think back to the fight and realize you over-revved it during a short dive, and that's why you're gliding back home. There are some that are almost impossible to get to the max continuous RPM.

Temperature is a slightly different beast than RPM. Overheating can cause engine failure. Remember that planes with a water radiator will start to steam if they get the water too hot, but this boiling actually keeps the engine from truly overheating until the water has boiled away. The same applies if your radiator gets a few holes in it: it will stream while steam until the radiator is empty, then the engine will actually overheat and seize. The thermometer you see is the water temperature, not the engine block. You can mitigate this by running the engine rich, which will reduce power but will also cause the engine to run cooler and give you more time before it fully overheats and fails.

Overcooling doesn't directly damage the engine. It reduces the engine power and reduces the max continuous RPM before damage. If overcooled, remember that the normal max RPM is now lower, so you need to be more careful of overspeeding the engine. For planes without radiators (especially rotaries), you can run the engine lean to help warm it up.

Excellent primer on engine management. 👏 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

19 hours ago, =IRFC=Gascan said:

One of the most common causes of engine damage is over-revving (depending on the pilot, this may be more or less common than enemy fire). There appears to be two different key numbers: the max continuous RPM (at which you can run the engine forever without breaking it) and the max instantaneous RPM (at which the engine will instantly break). If you're above the max continuous but below the max instantaneous, the engine will take damage after some time. Different planes take different times to take damage and demonstrate the damage differently. Some planes (like the Sopwith Dolphin and the Siemens Shuckert) are very sensitive and will break almost instantly if you go over the continuous limit for any length of time. Some engines will break and start to run rough immediately when you over-speed them, then lose power until they seize several minutes later. Some will sound normal for a bit after you violate the limit, but will break 30 seconds to a minute later and start to run rough. You'll wonder why your engine died, then think back to the fight and realize you over-revved it during a short dive, and that's why you're gliding back home. There are some that are almost impossible to get to the max continuous RPM.

Temperature is a slightly different beast than RPM. Overheating can cause engine failure. Remember that planes with a water radiator will start to steam if they get the water too hot, but this boiling actually keeps the engine from truly overheating until the water has boiled away. The same applies if your radiator gets a few holes in it: it will stream while steam until the radiator is empty, then the engine will actually overheat and seize. The thermometer you see is the water temperature, not the engine block. You can mitigate this by running the engine rich, which will reduce power but will also cause the engine to run cooler and give you more time before it fully overheats and fails.

Overcooling doesn't directly damage the engine. It reduces the engine power and reduces the max continuous RPM before damage. If overcooled, remember that the normal max RPM is now lower, so you need to be more careful of overspeeding the engine. For planes without radiators (especially rotaries), you can run the engine lean to help warm it up.

Gascan..you really should post this in a new thread so that it can be saved/bookmarked/pinned.   This is excellent material that should be saved for all to see.

Cheers

[Trooper117]

There should be something like that for all of the WWI aeroplanes, instead of the minimal details given officially.

Anyone new having just bought into FC hoping to fly these planes would not have a clue...

[North_Wolf]

21 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

There should be something like that for all of the WWI aeroplanes, instead of the minimal details given officially.

Anyone new having just bought into FC hoping to fly these planes would not have a clue...

I agree, we need better in game info, even in the WWII settings there should be a clear labeled button saying "Essential Information for x aircraft" (for the info that is at the end of specficications).  Years ago I had no idea this was available in the map (I never clicked the spec tab and browsed down).  The new museaum is a good step in the right direction (makes it easy to browse the different planes and compare) but it lacks the FC planes.

 

The historical stuff is good in FC but we lack tips for flying these ancient lawnmovers, knowing what controls are present in the airplane is good but giving tips on how to handle the plane would also be important.  The Halb not liking 1600rpm+ would be a good example here (since most of us check in specs for this type of info) I do get that this is not a boosted mode as such.

 

Pilot notes on same time frame counterparts would be good as well, things like what planes you can expect to outspeed and what planes you can expect to outurn (this is sometimes in the historical info, but its not always clear).  Also a heads up on what planes will stomp you as tech advances.

 

I knew that I can handle a HE-111 CEM, take off, navigating and successfully drop bombs on target in MP from 4-5k.  This gave me the confidence to ask why my engine died on me in the Halb.  😄  I´m at the point where I know enough to know when there is something I dont know.  I have a feeling that many newbies browse online, see words like RPM, Prop Settings, Colants, ATA, Rev, Mixture etc.  go 😮... experiment and then give up (I have been there in the past).

 

On 10/1/2024 at 4:12 PM, =IRFC=Gascan said:

One of the most common causes of engine damage is over-revving (depending on the pilot, this may be more or less common than enemy fire). There appears to be two different key numbers: the max continuous RPM (at which you can run the engine forever without breaking it) and the max instantaneous RPM (at which the engine will instantly break). If you're above the max continuous but below the max instantaneous, the engine will take damage after some time. Different planes take different times to take damage and demonstrate the damage differently. Some planes (like the Sopwith Dolphin and the Siemens Shuckert) are very sensitive and will break almost instantly if you go over the continuous limit for any length of time. Some engines will break and start to run rough immediately when you over-speed them, then lose power until they seize several minutes later. Some will sound normal for a bit after you violate the limit, but will break 30 seconds to a minute later and start to run rough. You'll wonder why your engine died, then think back to the fight and realize you over-revved it during a short dive, and that's why you're gliding back home. There are some that are almost impossible to get to the max continuous RPM.

Temperature is a slightly different beast than RPM. Overheating can cause engine failure. Remember that planes with a water radiator will start to steam if they get the water too hot, but this boiling actually keeps the engine from truly overheating until the water has boiled away. The same applies if your radiator gets a few holes in it: it will stream while steam until the radiator is empty, then the engine will actually overheat and seize. The thermometer you see is the water temperature, not the engine block. You can mitigate this by running the engine rich, which will reduce power but will also cause the engine to run cooler and give you more time before it fully overheats and fails.

Overcooling doesn't directly damage the engine. It reduces the engine power and reduces the max continuous RPM before damage. If overcooled, remember that the normal max RPM is now lower, so you need to be more careful of overspeeding the engine. For planes without radiators (especially rotaries), you can run the engine lean to help warm it up.

 

I learned alot from this, thanks Gascan.

 

I flew with =IRFC= for a little while in ROF, I ended up vanishing due to lack of time for flight sims with work and then university studies.  Due to bad health I however have nothing but time these days (and I set up my flight rig properly), does the =IRFC= still fly together?

[PatrickAWlson]

On 10/1/2024 at 3:31 AM, Zooropa_Fly said:

To the best of my knowledge and memory, in RoF you could run the planes at full throttle indefinately without any problems.

In FC that's not the case, so it's best to back off to 80-85% every once in a while.

No chance you could have caught a hit from flak ?

 

S!

 

I do not have that recollection.  I always had to chop throttle on inline engines before diving.  Albatros and Pfalz were very susceptible to over rev.  Less sure of allied types.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Well yes, over-revving in a dive.. I meant normal flying / a bit of turn fighting.