Dev Blog #365: Karelia and Odessa Map Updates

[LLv44_Kanttori]

Thanks for your kind comments
Sevenless, ACG_Bussard, Aapje, FlyingShark, LuftManu, Trooper117, my Squad mate LLv44_Damixu, CzechTexan and Jollyjack and many others who have encouraged us! 

Each of your positive comments gives us strength for this finishing work. It's actually also really rewarding job now because years of careful groundwork are starting to show and Finland's old Karelia is waking up from its long sleep... virtually, but still! 

These comments are nice to read in the evening (actually always in the wee hours as now...) at the end of a long day and night of map work. Today, Monday, a large update package will be completed, which will be tested and examined by 1CGS game developers, and we will also distribute it to our Finnish beta testers to be tested both in Single Player and on our Multiplayer test server. We have also received nice feedback from them, because this map is an important milestone for all Finnish virtual pilots.

Everyone here are also waiting for Karelia missions to run on the VirtualPilots Multiplayer server as soon as the map published. We are preparing the missions for that well in advance next spring.  We will then probably start with the Nordic Countries' biggest fight i.e. Battle of Tali-Ihantala and the Great Soviet Offensive that led to it starting on June 10, 1944. We already have the concepts ready for that battle. I will write more about VP Multiplayer missions and becoming Finnish early war planes later in the fall when we get information on how things will start.

[Aleksander55]

On 9/24/2024 at 5:39 AM, Hanu said:

Especially in case of Brewster, the modeling of Hurricane will be interesting (worrying, more like). Current Hurricane is not nearly as bad as I could expect from this sentence from Captain Hans Wind (most successful Brewster pilot in the world) lecture:

"The easiest one to shoot down of the enemy fighters is the Hurricane. It is totally helpless against us below 3,000 meters. It is slow and very clumsy and unmanoeuvrable. Whenever you meet a Hurricane, engage it in a turn-fight, where it is totally at our mercy. It is best to shoot this plane in the forward part of the fuselage when it almost immediately bursts into flames."

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html

As far as I can see the current turn rate of Hurricane outperforms any other monoplane in IL-2; Spitfires, Yak's, I-16. It is also faster than Brewster will be.

 

"The easiest one to shoot down of the enemy fighters is the Hurricane. It is totally helpless against us below 3,000 meters. It is slow and very clumsy and unmanoeuvrable. Whenever you meet a Hurricane, engage it in a turn-fight, where it is totally at our mercy. It is best to shoot this plane in the forward part of the fuselage when it almost immediately bursts into flames."

 

This is a very interesting document. Completely contradicts a lot of what I'm used to and have been reading in the comments.

 

In the hands of the AI the Hurricane handily outturns me in the I-16. With me in control the Hurri probably outturns everything, even Spitfires and Yaks.

 

In the hands of the player the Hurricane is much more powerful than the I-16 even down low. Against the AI it's pretty much an 'easy noob mode' it completely overpowers any german plane up to 5000 meters, and if you have the Hispano or soviet guns mods also makes short work of them. Even in practice with 100% fuel vs 109s with 30% it completely outclasses the AI Messers with ease. I can simply overpower turn on them.

 

By comparison in the I-16 I can outturn AI 109s but it's only by fine margins. If I'm heavy on fuel and they are lighter they can keep ahead. In the I-16 I have to work a bit harder with more tricks to 'cheese' the 109 AI. Even with light fuel I can only outperform them up to 3000 meters, above this the Ishak loses a lot of steam. I can still win but again with more tricks to break the AI. Meanwhile as I said - in the Hurri I can just overpower them up to 5000.

 

I've also seen multiplayer 109 pilots claiming that they can outturn the I-16. 👀 I don't doubt it given that even AI 109s can keep ahead of me in some conditions. The 109 'mafia' also seems to be the most present here, complaining against anything that outturns them even thought the 109 has small wing area and high wing loading compared to many aircraft. 👀 Nothing personal, just an observation.

 

As a side note, if I remember correctly, in  IL-2 1946 the I-16 was completely outturned by the Fokker DXXI and could barely outturn a Finnish Buffalo, while this text claims that they are completely outturned by the I-16:

 

'The Finns had already learned that in the Winter War when they attacked the I-15s and I-16s with their Fokkers. You did not turn-fight them.'

'Never stay and turn with either one of these planes (I-16 and I-15(3)), because they are both much nimbler than our fighters.'

 

Well, what the heck. This is a salad of contradictions.

[Corralandy120000]

Finaly some good news in this blog 😁😊

[[CPT]Crunch]

Well, when was the last time you lost control over any aircraft represented in this game without any combat inflicted damage?  Think that reflects any sort of reality?

 

Nope.  So don't compare with anything bordering on reality.

[Gambit21]

Anyone who puts time, effort, sacrifice into this sort of content creation is to be commended, thanked, supported.

It’s not always fun, I speak from experience. Compensation is not always commensurate with time invested either - I speak from experience there as well.

 

Hoping to see more of this kind of collaboration in the new engine as well.

 

 

 

 

[Sonko]

On 9/30/2024 at 3:09 AM, LLv44_Kanttori said:

Thanks for your kind comments
 

Kanttori, thank you and your team very much for your hard work! 20 years ago when I had no internet I used to fly a lot on the Leningrad map of the old IL2 game and enjoyed the setting very much. I can hardly wait to be able to access it via todays IL2. The detail degree in the pictures looks stunning already, keep up with the good work. Oh and please ignore the people who say it looks as "bad" as in the old IL2, this is definitely not true.

 

All the best from Kiel at the other side of the baltic sea!

Sonko

[Rudini]

On 9/24/2024 at 6:04 AM, LukeFF said:

🤔

 

okay, sum up and bump:

confirmed:

1. I-153

2. Ju 87D-5

3. Yak-3

 

likely:

4. early Yak-1

5. early LaGG-3

6. La-7

7. Il-2 Late (Arrow wing)

 

disputet 8th:

Bf 110 F-2

Fw 190 A-9??? ->

But i remember the Il-2 team said something like the Fw 190 A-9 is absolute nonesene and will never be published.

 

As they are focused on korea and seem to have an ww2 burnout, they will only use the new I-153 model of this enthusiastic IAR-80 guy, and the rest of aircraft will be training stuff for their new 3D guys - adapting existing models.

->that means no Brewster and stuff.

 

the next question is weather there will be a Odessa 1941 scenario? i think no, because:

 

as you can see in ukraine conflict: russian mentality is very strong. they never made a scenario/map/campaign where Wehrmacht wins. (BoM -> Wehrmacht lost, BoS -> Wehrmacht lost, BoK -> Wehrmacht lost, BoN -> Wehrmacht lost, BoBP -> Wehrmacht lost)

So i dont think there will be a early Odessa "Unternehmen München" szenario.

-> i asume there will be no early Yak-1 and no early LaGG-3 either.

I-153 will fit in each eastern front scenario anyway.

 

i am no Bf 110 F-2 expert. but there seems no scenario for this aircraft in the maps, especially the new maps.

 

we have to think about the balance dilemma with il-2. each side (axis, allies) have eaqual planeset.

 

I asume (and this is only speculation):

 

1. I-153

2. Yak-3 (russian latewar glory)

3. La-7 (russian latewar glory)

4. il-2 late arrow wing (russian latewar glory)

---

5. Ju 87 D-5

6. I-153 (finnish instruments)

7. Pe-2 (finnish instruments)

8. some kind of fancy recon Bf 109 G-8 or like that, but no new aircraft type. 

 

 

Any ideas that i am wrong?

(i am hoping for an early Odessa 1941 campaign with the romanian Bf 109 E-3a)

 

 

 

 

 

[I/JG53_Kurtz]

Considering all the previous discussions and the fact that developers will previlege planes that can be derived from existing ones, my guess is:

 

1. I-153 already confirmed
2. Ju 87 D-5 already confirmed
3. Yak-3 already confirmed
4. La-7, similar to La-5s
5. Il-2 late, similar to previous Il-2
6. I-15, very similar to I-153, so easy and fast to develop
7. Bf 109 G-10, the only true missing 109 in the sim
8. B-239, a must for finnish missions, not possible to imagine Finnish air force without the Brewster

 

[BlackSix]

4 hours ago, Rudini said:

the next question is weather there will be a Odessa 1941 scenario? i think no, because...

Compared to the military disasters of the Red Army in 1941, the battle for Odessa is considered an example of a successful and prolonged defense and subsequent successful evacuation of troops. We started working on the "Odessa 1941" career this week, in close cooperation with the author of the map 🙂

[rodgerdavies]

Late to reply, but just a comment to say I'm really looking forward to this whatever it contains - I thought development was over (I was sad Italy was never touched) so everything you guys are doing now is a great bonus thanks

[Bremspropeller]

The Fw 189A would be awesome. Not only because it's an awesome aeroplane by itself, but because it could be used on any map in many roles. Just sayin.

 

I'd also love another Ju 88 or a Ju 188 variant. Especially if it's higher powered (BMW or Jumo 213, which the 188 is anyway). So a Ju 88R or G would be cool, with the latter sadly being too optimized for the night fighter role. A variant that can drop torpedos would also be a cool addition. Not sure if the Ju 88A-4 could be modded into a torpedo variant (was it the A-17?) by deleting the dive-brakes, bola gondola and adding RATOs.

 

A Bv 138 or (even more so!) a Do 24 would also be highly appreciated. This could also serve as a means to advance the game mechanics towards SAR and transport (proper logistics).

 

[UIST1Uist1]

Looks fantastic. Will cold starts and engine warm ups in career mode be included with this update?

[ACG_Bussard]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

The Fw 189A would be awesome. Not only because it's an awesome aeroplane by itself, but because it could be used on any map in many roles. Just sayin.

100%

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, UIST1Uist1 said:

Looks fantastic. Will cold starts and engine warm ups in career mode be included with this update?

 

No, no changes planned with that.

[Aleksander55]

16 hours ago, UIST1Uist1 said:

Looks fantastic. Will cold starts and engine warm ups in career mode be included with this update?

In player made scripted campaigns you can have this 'fun'. There are not many, in most missions you'll start already in the runway like the pilot careers, but in a few missions you'll have to start the engine and taxi to runway with it still cold if you don't have 'pre warmed engines' option activated.

[LLv44_Damixu]

I hope from 1C company side strong to launch a marketing campaign to find plane modders of rest of the Finnish front aircraft: namely Morane Saulnier MS 406, and Dornier Do 17 Z, Fokker D.XXI.

There where many other aircraft but these were any substantial part of the World War.

[PA_Keko_]

I will love to fly the Fokker D.XXI!!!  🤩

[IckyATLAS]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:38 PM, Gambit21 said:

Anyone who puts time, effort, sacrifice into this sort of content creation is to be commended, thanked, supported.

It’s not always fun, I speak from experience. Compensation is not always commensurate with time invested either - I speak from experience there as well.

 

Hoping to see more of this kind of collaboration in the new engine as well.

I totally agree too. As I did not entered any paying scheme, my only compensation was the immense personal pleasure in creating missions and a campaign and then making them available but without any particular expectation. Some may like them some not, and that's normal. There is no success measure here, just the pleasure of sharing to whoever enjoys this hobby and sim. And it is paramount that those who do enter into the Karelian Rabbit Hole, do absolutely have also this mindset. If so you will never be disappointed.

[actionhank1786]

On 10/13/2024 at 5:59 AM, Bremspropeller said:

The Fw 189A would be awesome. Not only because it's an awesome aeroplane by itself, but because it could be used on any map in many roles. Just sayin.

 

I'd also love another Ju 88 or a Ju 188 variant. Especially if it's higher powered (BMW or Jumo 213, which the 188 is anyway). So a Ju 88R or G would be cool, with the latter sadly being too optimized for the night fighter role. A variant that can drop torpedos would also be a cool addition. Not sure if the Ju 88A-4 could be modded into a torpedo variant (was it the A-17?) by deleting the dive-brakes, bola gondola and adding RATOs.

 

A Bv 138 or (even more so!) a Do 24 would also be highly appreciated. This could also serve as a means to advance the game mechanics towards SAR and transport (proper logistics).

 

That was my go-to plane to shoot things down with when I was in Junior High and wanted to test out the cool new planes.

 

Nothing quite like the 30mm grapefruit launcher in the P-39 firing on some poor Fw 189A to make my child brain go "OH MY GOD, THIS DAMAGE MODEL IS INCREDIBLE!" 

[Avimimus]

Well, the Fw-189 wasn't used on the Normandy/Bodenplatte maps (until after the war was over anyway - it was the preferred commuting plane for a British test pilot). But it would definitely fit with Odessa, Moscow, Stalingrad, Karelia, and possibly Kuban... the Fi-156 could be used as an artillery spotter anywhere (but lacks the armament).

[LLv44_Damixu]

For the Karelian front for love of sake - Remove the all views blocking frontal machine gun from Ju 88.
Finns had forward firing 20 mm. machine cannon under the fuselage of some of the bombers.

[Bremspropeller]

On 10/30/2024 at 8:55 PM, Avimimus said:

Well, the Fw-189 wasn't used on the Normandy/Bodenplatte maps (until after the war was over anyway - it was the preferred commuting plane for a British test pilot).

Pre-series 189As flew in the Battle of France, but it wasn't used on a large scale, other than ferrying VIPs, in the West.

Wasn't Brown most fond of the Siebel 204 for commuting? Another great little aeroplane, which later saw a duckton of service with the French.

 

Quote

the Fi-156 could be used as an artillery spotter anywhere (but lacks the armament).

...including Vietnam Indochina.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Bremspropeller

[Crockett]

I keep waiting for this next big update and checking every day -- yet nothing -- again! It can't get here soon enough!

[Avimimus]

58 minutes ago, Crockett said:

I keep waiting for this next big update and checking every day -- yet nothing -- again! It can't get here soon enough!

 

I wouldn't expect Odessa/Karelia until mid-summer. On the other hand, I'm guessing that Flying Circus Volume IV will be out sometime this month.

[Avimimus]

4 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Pre-series 189As flew in the Battle of France, but it wasn't used on a large scale, other than ferrying VIPs, in the West.

Wasn't Brown most fond of the Siebel 204 for commuting? Another great little aeroplane, which later saw a duckton of service with the French.

 

...including Vietnam Indochina.

 

We were both right:

Quote

But there are also the quieter seducers; those aeroplanes offering little in terms of conventional beauty, exoticism or scintillating performance; that possess an aura which, defying analysis, renders them quite irresistible to some. To me, one such aeroplane was Germany's “eye in the sky”, the Focke-Wulf Fw 189.

[...]

I propelled myself towards the first of these aircraft that I came across on Flensburg airfield with the ulterior motive of making it my personal hack for the many trips that I was then making between the UK and the Continent. I suspect that this particular aeroplane had been used right up to the end of the fighting by Admiral Karl Doenitz’s staff. In the event, I was soon to trade my Fw 189 for a Siebel Si 204D as a cross-channel transport owing to the strictly limited internal capacity of the Focke-Wulf. However, by that time I had gained considerable respect for the Fw 189 as a functional aircraft with a high degree of mechanical reliability.

[...]

I shall always remember with affection that Fw 189A-1 which I used and enjoyed so much.

 

 

  

On 10/30/2024 at 7:55 PM, Avimimus said:

...the Fi-156 could be used as an artillery spotter anywhere (but lacks the armament).

 

Okay, some corrections here. Many Fi-156 were equipped with a defensive machine gun. A few received field modifications which moved the machine gun to the side windows for counter-insurgency work (but I've never seen any photos). There was also an ASW prototype tested with three bomb racks. Some Fi-156 were modified with bombs for anti-partisan use (photographs exist), and there are reports of Fi-156 equipped with bombs for anti-tank work in 1945, alongside the Bü 181 (although apparently the Panzerschreck installations failed bombers were used). So what I wrote here wasn't strictly true. One could probably justify the bomb racks.

 

Overall the six machine guns and four bombs of the Fw-189A2 is still a substantially more impressive armament. There were also field modifications of the Fw-189 in 1944 with a 20mm cannon for night-fighter use (these were radar equipped, and while photographs survive there may not be enough documentation to model them).

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

36 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

I wouldn't expect Odessa/Karelia until mid-summer. On the other hand, I'm guessing that Flying Circus Volume IV will be out sometime this month.

I think 25/26