Dev Blog #365: Karelia and Odessa Map Updates

[Avimimus]

The issue with the Hurricane is the tendency to average out small calibre rounds - so it takes multiple hits in the same location to have an effect. IMHO, it'd be better to have an RNG based function which gave some 0.303 rounds more damage (i.e. a critical hit) and lower the damage they do overall to compensate!

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Pls, Pls, Pls No! My heart can't take more RNG in the damage model 😭

[A-E-Hartmann]

Great news, can't wait to see this new module. Thanks for your work. I just hope there will be new planes. If the Bf110F-2 and the Fw190A-9 were mentioned. Then the Bf109G-10 would be the cherry on the cake.😉

[the_emperor]

On 9/22/2024 at 6:31 PM, Aurora_Stealth said:

One subject I just want to briefly highlight again with regards to this upcoming module, specifically the 1944 scenarios. Sorry to sound like a broken record.

 

Both the Yak 3 and La7 (plus La5FN) are extremely potent fighters low down when compared to the variants of Bf 109 G-6 which would have been the most common opposition through 1944.

 

These Soviet fighters were notoriously tough opponents in the original IL2 '1946 as they were in real life and I doubt it'll be a vastly different story here but we'll see.

 

There needs to be a correction for the standard DB605a engines (G-4, G-6, G-6 late / no MW50) to give them any chance whatsoever against this kind of opposition... considering limited availability of MW50 and I imagine it's historical supply being prioritised for western front.

 

The current emergency power limits of 1 minute have been proven to be too conservative and not historically correct for early 1943 onwards, it was 3 mins as shown on the thread of that topic.

 

If these Soviet aircraft are introduced against non MW50 powered Bf 109's it'll be an absolute rout, as these will be performing below even their own historical specifications against the very latest and highest performing Soviet ones of WW2 (until MW50 does become available, whenever that could be).

 

Yeah...if they are not willing to fix that mistake it will be (pardon my french) seal clubbing below 2000m for older 109s against the Yak-3

 

though I am wondering how if that lightweight airframe will be more susceptible to damage compared to earlier Yak airframges? 

 

[sevenless]

20 hours ago, A-E-Hartmann said:

Great news, can't wait to see this new module. Thanks for your work. I just hope there will be new planes. If the Bf110F-2 and the Fw190A-9 were mentioned. Then the Bf109G-10 would be the cherry on the cake.😉

 

They havent spilled the beans yet. So I guess everything ist still on the table.

[kraut1]

On 9/23/2024 at 11:38 AM, Aurora_Stealth said:

 

Good info, cheers for the link!

 

Yep that's what I remember - the Yak 3 being quite formidable and nimble, the engineers took a lot of weight out of the aircraft and its aerodynamically quite clean as well and pretty fast at low altitudes. It'll be noticeably more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire(s) and a strong climb rate as well. That being said its lightweight airframe may not be particularly durable or resilient in a dive, its Vne / not to exceed speed may be somewhat limited but if its fighting at low altitudes then not the biggest deal.

 

But I take your point - operational strength of these new fighters would have taken time to build up. The same however may well apply though to the Germans with regards to MW50 usage so it could work both ways.

 

Can't answer your question unfortunately.

I just flew 2 test missions to simulate something like a Yak3:

-1x BF109-G6 100% fuel + SC250 bomb rack (bomb dropped) vs Yak1s127 with 25% fuel, 2000m aside, average pilot, altitude 1000m

-1x BF109-G6 40% fuel but 4xSC50 (not dropped!) vs Yak1s127 with 80% fuel, 2000m aside, average pilot, altitude 1000m

When you use the BF as a dogfighter at low altitude you have a good chance to win.

So I would say even if the Yak-3 is in some respect superior you will have still a chance in a standard BF109-G6

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/343720dwxia532c9kmpnr/tracks.zip?rlkey=ubjsqqradz01uqppxrsknruu4&st=qjid8l4i&dl=0

[FuriousMeow]

23 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Pls, Pls, Pls No! My heart can't take more RNG in the damage model 😭

Is there actual evidence of this RNG element in the DM, or more forum bunk to help satiate the egos of the self-assured 'aces' when they turn out to not be as good as they swear they are?

[Aurora_Stealth]

5 hours ago, the_emperor said:

 

Yeah...if they are not willing to fix that mistake it will be (pardon my french) seal clubbing below 2000m for older 109s against the Yak-3

 

though I am wondering how if that lightweight airframe will be more susceptible to damage compared to earlier Yak airframges? 

 

 

I think they've made it clear they do intend to address it, just a matter of when but yeah it would be a mismatch. I'm not sure that graph tells the full story though.

 

The Yak 3 is a smaller airframe in height and wingspan compared to the Yak 9 (or Yak 1 for that matter). This meant it was, as your graph shows... fast accelerating but also quite aerodynamic with a much higher top speed down low, even though it had substantially less power compared to the 109.

 

Regarding durability, the Yak 3 extensively used wood with plywood skins on the wings and fuselage with only limited use of metal in the airframe. Whereas the Yak 9 was mainly metal and was a more solid machine for operational use in scale.

 

Simplistically speaking, this meant the Yak 3 airframe could endure less stress, whether that's for load carrying for weapons, fuel, equipment, systems etc or enduring the extreme stresses in a high speed dive. Its structural limits were therefore lower with a correspondingly lower max dive speed, although it would likely do well in the initial dive up to something like ~400mph. However prolonged, intense and rough operational conditions would take a toll on the wooden construction so in real life the airframe had a limited shelf life under those conditions and that wasn't uncommon.

 

It's capacity and versatility was less due to the smaller size, so not an adaptable or switch role fighter like the Yak 9 or Bf 109 could be, and not durable enough to be used on that kind of basis/scale.

 

On top of that, practically speaking there were issues with the wood deforming/warping, in some cases delamination of the plywood skin from the wings due to stress/strain at high speed, high G's and things like the bonding agents breaking down due to it deteriorating from all kinds of factors including quality control problems. Even silly things like damage from poor landings caused by it's unreliable systems failing could create cracks or underlying damage in the wood which could develop into a serious issue when at high speeds / G's etc.

Edited September 25, 2024 by Aurora_Stealth
Adding Yak 1 ref, for context. Other minor edits

[Aurora_Stealth]

1 hour ago, kraut1 said:

I just flew 2 test missions to simulate something like a Yak3:

-1x BF109-G6 100% fuel + SC250 bomb rack (bomb dropped) vs Yak1s127 with 25% fuel, 2000m aside, average pilot, altitude 1000m

-1x BF109-G6 40% fuel but 4xSC50 (not dropped!) vs Yak1s127 with 80% fuel, 2000m aside, average pilot, altitude 1000m

When you use the BF as a dogfighter at low altitude you have a good chance to win.

So I would say even if the Yak-3 is in some respect superior you will have still a chance in a standard BF109-G6

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/343720dwxia532c9kmpnr/tracks.zip?rlkey=ubjsqqradz01uqppxrsknruu4&st=qjid8l4i&dl=0

 

Mmm, it's a rough comparison so it's difficult to extrapolate much but I appreciate what you're trying to do. Yes there is always a chance. But an average skill AI pilot probably isn't going to be pushing the limits like real players will, and it's not always going to be 1-vs-1 or an isolated fight. Yeah the 109 is a good gun platform in any case but it'll need to sustain a high engine output to keep up a competitive fight against a Yak-3.

 

My earlier point was in a dynamic environment the standard G-6 would be losing the energy fight / momentum very quickly once it runs out of the 1 minute WEP time. That gives little room for error at low altitude as a Yak 3 will hold all the cards except in firepower and durability.

 

Then it'll be a mismatch of using combat power while the Yak can rely on its WEP, implying better power to weight ratio / acceleration on top of being more agile.

 

You can then say, 'disengage' but in these example scenarios where we're talking low altitude there isn't huge altitude to dive away and the Yak 3 will match you down to something like 400mph, so once you level out you'll still be caught by the Yak 3 as it's aerodynamically superior. It would, in that case still have several more minutes of emergency power to waste (to some degree, even if the engine timer changes).

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

3 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

Is there actual evidence of this RNG element in the DM, or more forum bunk to help satiate the egos of the self-assured 'aces' when they turn out to not be as good as they swear they are?

It's not a secret, it's how the devs compensate for systems that don't have an individual hit box and acts as a way to keep CPU utilization down in the current engine. The devs talked about it in one of their Korea vids, and talked about how they're increasing the amount of systems modeled and their detail (for example they said instead of having just one hit box for the engine, they'll add multiple areas for the different parts of the engine) in the Korea planes to add more real elements to hit, and are moving away from the RNG chance to damage the component like we have now. 

[Juri_JS]

On 9/24/2024 at 11:13 PM, A-E-Hartmann said:

Great news, can't wait to see this new module. Thanks for your work. I just hope there will be new planes. If the Bf110F-2 and the Fw190A-9 were mentioned. Then the Bf109G-10 would be the cherry on the cake.😉

I would prefer planes that actually fought in the area of the Odessa and Karelia maps.

[Avimimus]

12 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

Is there actual evidence of this RNG element in the DM, or more forum bunk to help satiate the egos of the self-assured 'aces' when they turn out to not be as good as they swear they are?

 

There might be for fires... however, even there I'm not sure - they seem to be pretty predictable (both how they are created and how they are put out). There is a random function for gun jams - but that is only used in WWI. Overall, the sim seems overly deterministic if anything.

 

  

5 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

I would prefer planes that actually fought in the area of the Odessa and Karelia maps.

 

This may be one of the last chances to get aircraft for use on other maps though. Otherwise, I would normally agree with you.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

13 hours ago, FuriousMeow said:

Is there actual evidence of this RNG element in the DM, or more forum bunk to help satiate the egos of the self-assured 'aces' when they turn out to not be as good as they swear they are?

It is , I remember Petrovich post about FC wings DM.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

It is , I remember Petrovich post about FC wings DM.

 

That might be with regard to aerodynamics stresses... so basically, if your wings are sufficiently damaged and you pull a certain number of G's at a certain airspeed there is a probability of the wings failing... I seem to recall something like that... that structural failures due to aerodynamic forces were made slightly unpredictable.

[Freycinet]

Ok, this may be an unpopular opinion. I actually almost hope that it is! - But having now flown MSFS2020 for half a year in VR, I think I will have a hard time going back to these kind of hand-drawn maps, with manually placed objects. The Finnish map has a sort of simple, cartoonish look and seem not too different from what we got in this series ten or fifteen years ago. Sorry, but that is how I think.

[CzechTexan]

That's because the engine is outdated but that's the best it can do.  And, that's all we have, for now.

As for myself, I will probably be using this "old" engine for another 10 years. 

There probably will not be another sim to match this European Theater...at least for some time in the future.  Next, we get Korea, and then the Pacific Theater - which we'll be flying for several years to come.  After that... back to Europe?... With newer technology.

[Hr_Rossi]

2 hours ago, Freycinet said:

Ok, this may be an unpopular opinion. I actually almost hope that it is! - But having now flown MSFS2020 for half a year in VR, I think I will have a hard time going back to these kind of hand-drawn maps, with manually placed objects. The Finnish map has a sort of simple, cartoonish look and seem not too different from what we got in this series ten or fifteen years ago. Sorry, but that is how I think.

Of course who wouldnt like it to look better, i mean ground textures could need some more detail but i dont think its a good idea to create a WW2 map based on Satelite images from nowadays. Also what i have seen from the Microsoft maps is that there are realy weird looking parts because of the nature how its build. Crossing such parts in a tank or on a low level mission would completely ruin my immersion. At least its like comparing apples with oranges and comparing is the greatest thief of joy. 

Edited September 26, 2024 by Absolut

[LLv44_Kanttori]

On 9/27/2024 at 12:11 AM, Freycinet said:

Ok, this may be an unpopular opinion. I actually almost hope that it is! - But having now flown MSFS2020 for half a year in VR, I think I will have a hard time going back to these kind of hand-drawn maps, with manually placed objects. The Finnish map has a sort of simple, cartoonish look and seem not too different from what we got in this series ten or fifteen years ago. Sorry, but that is how I think.

Hello Freycinet!

I understand your opinion and we gladly accept all kinds of feedback, including negative feedback if you don't like something on our map, so thank you for your opinion! But you didn't take into account a few points from our screenshots, and that's why I'm writing this equivalent.  
 

The MSFS2020 World Map is based on modern satellite data and its world is therefore modern. The world of IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles is based on history, meaning its world is old. That's why the maps have to be made mainly by hand and using historical source material, because the "world data" of the 1940s does not (yet) exist. We used the existing land cover data, which has remained almost unchanged. For example, waterways, the visible bedrock of Finland and Karelia, and large marshes. Of course, we removed the modern harbour areas and fixed other beach changes by drawing the water body fixes to the game's water data.
 

We used old Finnish, Russian and Estonian 1:20,000, 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 topographic maps and aerial photo maps from the 1940s to create the entire 409.6 x 409.6 km terrain aka map. Just for this work, I straightened and measured more than 400 about 10 x 10 km map sheets that cover the entire land area of the map. I scaled, stretched and aligned all the maps with Photoshop tools so that they matched the rivers, lakes and islands, i.e. data water, exactly. Even at worst, the margin of error was only a maximum of about 50 meters in the peripheral areas of Russia, where decent old topographic maps and land cover data are not available or the old maps are very poor quality like some Russian even 1:100,000 wartime maps.
 

It was a real and boring Photoshop hand job - that alone took us over three years with our small "restoration crew". We also had to repair the countryside field and forest data by hand because there have been many changes to them over the course of more than 80 years. The water and forest_map of the game engine have a resolution of 10 meters/pixel, but we did everything with four times the resolution, i.e. 2.5 meters/pixel. Thus, in the source files we have the so-called "future insurance" because game texture resolutions and other things keep increasing as computers improve. 



Another thing you didn't consider is that our screenshot shows natural landscapes and urban site plans + buildings in a complete Work In Process (W.I.P.) stage, which is maybe about 25 percent of what the end result will be. Everything is still being improved and a lot because we are constantly creating new and better map technologies. For ex. it was only at the beginning of this September 2024 that we introduced the correct location plans for the city centres in the small towns of Finland. We noticed in summer that the space required by the Karelia settlement textures will be only a fraction of what is in, for example, the latest Normandy and Rhineland maps. There were a lot of big cities in Central Europe when Finland was still a small agricultural country in the 1940s: There were only ten small towns in the Karelia region and the medium-sized Vyborg, which was the capital of the Vyborg county.

That WIP picture above is Karelia Finnish towns texture and there are four Karelia town plans which are made from aerial photographs and real town plans. Towns are from left to right Kotka, Lappeenranta, Hamina and Viipuri (Vyborg). We just need another texture of the same size 4096 x 2048 px and all the cities of Karelia can fit in them!  

Leningrad itself will require the same amount of texture space as all other cities, towns and villages on the map combined. We have a plan how to make the central metropolis of the map lightly but with an authentic look, with an almost correct layout but with generic blocks. That is, the way it looked in the beginning of the Operation Barbarossa in the July 22nd 1941.

P.S: Did you know that MSFS2020 also uses generic building objects? For that reason my grandparents' 100-year-old country house with its yard buildings and barns near the Russian border in Ilomantsi, North Karelia, looks mostly like an American suburban home. I didn't recognise the courtyard at all when my friend posted a screenshot of it! 

 

[ITAF_Rani]

31 minutes ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

Hello Freycinet!

I understand your opinion and we gladly accept all kinds of feedback, including negative feedback if you don't like something on our map, so thank you for your opinion! But you didn't take into account a few points from our screenshots, and that's why I'm writing this equivalent.  
 

The MSFS2020 World Map is based on modern satellite data and its world is therefore modern. The world of IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles is based on history, meaning its world is old. That's why the maps have to be made mainly by hand and using historical source material, because the "world data" of the 1940s does not (yet) exist. We used the existing land cover data, which has remained almost unchanged. For example, waterways, the visible bedrock of Finland and Karelia, and large marshes. Of course, we removed the modern harbour areas and fixed other beach changes by drawing the water body fixes to the game's water data.
 

We used old Finnish, Russian and Estonian 1:20,000, 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 topographic maps and aerial photo maps from the 1940s to create the entire 409.6 x 409.6 km terrain. Just for this work, I straightened and measured more than 400 map sheets that cover the entire land area of the map. I scaled, stretched and aligned all the maps with Photoshop tools, with rivers, lakes and islands, i.e. data-water, in exactly the right places. Even at worst, the margin of error was only a maximum of about 50 meters in the peripheral areas of Russia, where decent old topographic maps and land cover data are not available.
 

It was a real and boring Photoshop hand job - that alone took us over three years with our small "restoration crew". We also had to repair the countryside field and forest data by hand because there have been many changes to them over the course of more than 80 years. The water and forest_map of the game engine have a resolution of 10 meters/pixel, but we did everything with four times the resolution, i.e. 2.5 meters/pixel. Thus, in the source files we have the so-called "future insurance" because game texture resolutions and other things keep increasing as computers improve. 



Another thing you didn't consider is that our screenshot shows natural landscapes and urban site plans + buildings in a complete Work In Process (W.I.P.) stage, which is maybe about 25 percent of what the end result will be. Everything is still being improved and a lot because we are constantly creating new and better map technologies. For ex. it was only at the beginning of this September 2024 that we introduced the correct location plans for the city centres in the small towns of Finland, because the space required by the Karelia settlement textures will be only a fraction of what is in, for example, the latest Normandy and Rhineland maps. There were a lot of big cities in Central Europe when Finland was still a small agricultural country in 1940: we only had ten small towns or townships and, in addition, the medium-sized Vyborg.

That WIP picture above is Karelia Finnish towns texture and there are four Karelia town plans which are made from aerial photographs and real site plans. Towns are Lappeenranta, Hamina and Viipuri (Vyborg). We just need another texture of the same size 4096 x 2048 px and all the cities of Karelia can fit in them!  

Leningrad itself will require the same amount of texture space as all other cities, towns and villages on the map combined. We have a plan how to make the central metropolis of the map lightly but with an authentic look, with an almost correct layout but with generic blocks. That is, the way it looked during WWII 80 years ago.

P.S: Did you know that MSFS2020 also uses generic building objects? For that reason my grandparents' 100-year-old country house with its yard buildings and barns near the Russian border in Ilomantsi, North Karelia, looks mostly like an American suburban home. I didn't recognise the courtyard at all when my friend posted a screenshot of it! 

 

Hi kanttori impressive work..lot of passion there...compliments !!

When in your opinion we will get same solid info abut the future planeset to fly over this  beautiful map?

[LLv44_Kanttori]

2 minutes ago, ITAF_Rani said:

Hi kanttori impressive work..lot of passion there...compliments !!

When in your opinion we will get same solid info abut the future planeset to fly over this  beautiful map?

Thank you ITAF_Rani!

Many issues related to airplanes are being resolved during this fall and I will tell you what we have planned with the FAF warbirds already next week. Right now I am in a hurry to finish the city texture above. We will send all the map files of Karelia to Daniel "Han" Tuseev and the other devs to be completed next Monday. It is a dead line defined by ourselves for ourselves! 

[Hanu]

Well, the world and places have changed during 80 years. Funny that there are people who don't realize that things are way different in historic maps versus current day maps.

[jollyjack]

As for historics and IL-2 maps i consider latter as a game, mainly as they are far from accurate historically ...

 

Added:

 

On 9/27/2024 at 8:20 AM, LLv44_Kanttori said:

P.S: Did you know that MSFS2020 also uses generic building objects? For that reason my grandparents' 100-year-old country house with its yard buildings and barns near the Russian border in Ilomantsi, North Karelia, looks mostly like an American suburban home. I didn't recognise the courtyard at all when my friend posted a screenshot of it! 

 

Regarding MFS2020 and maps, they are far from accurate f.i for areas i know quite well like Sealand in Denmark.

Edited September 30, 2024 by jollyjack

[KpaxBos]

3 hours ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

Hello Freycinet!

I understand your opinion and we gladly accept all kinds of feedback, including negative feedback if you don't like something on our map, so thank you for your opinion! But you didn't take into account a few points from our screenshots, and that's why I'm writing this equivalent.  
 

The MSFS2020 World Map is based on modern satellite data and its world is therefore modern. The world of IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles is based on history, meaning its world is old. That's why the maps have to be made mainly by hand and using historical source material, because the "world data" of the 1940s does not (yet) exist. We used the existing land cover data, which has remained almost unchanged. For example, waterways, the visible bedrock of Finland and Karelia, and large marshes. Of course, we removed the modern harbour areas and fixed other beach changes by drawing the water body fixes to the game's water data.
 

We used old Finnish, Russian and Estonian 1:20,000, 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 topographic maps and aerial photo maps from the 1940s to create the entire 409.6 x 409.6 km terrain aka map. Just for this work, I straightened and measured more than 400 about 10 x 10 km map sheets that cover the entire land area of the map. I scaled, stretched and aligned all the maps with Photoshop tools so that they matched the rivers, lakes and islands, i.e. data water, exactly. Even at worst, the margin of error was only a maximum of about 50 meters in the peripheral areas of Russia, where decent old topographic maps and land cover data are not available or the old maps are very poor quality like some Russian even 1:100,000 wartime maps.
 

It was a real and boring Photoshop hand job - that alone took us over three years with our small "restoration crew". We also had to repair the countryside field and forest data by hand because there have been many changes to them over the course of more than 80 years. The water and forest_map of the game engine have a resolution of 10 meters/pixel, but we did everything with four times the resolution, i.e. 2.5 meters/pixel. Thus, in the source files we have the so-called "future insurance" because game texture resolutions and other things keep increasing as computers improve. 



Another thing you didn't consider is that our screenshot shows natural landscapes and urban site plans + buildings in a complete Work In Process (W.I.P.) stage, which is maybe about 25 percent of what the end result will be. Everything is still being improved and a lot because we are constantly creating new and better map technologies. For ex. it was only at the beginning of this September 2024 that we introduced the correct location plans for the city centres in the small towns of Finland. We noticed in summer that the space required by the Karelia settlement textures will be only a fraction of what is in, for example, the latest Normandy and Rhineland maps. There were a lot of big cities in Central Europe when Finland was still a small agricultural country in the 1940s: There were only ten small towns in the Karelia region and the medium-sized Vyborg, which was the capital of the Vyborg county.

That WIP picture above is Karelia Finnish towns texture and there are four Karelia town plans which are made from aerial photographs and real town plans. Towns are from left to right Kotka, Lappeenranta, Hamina and Viipuri (Vyborg). We just need another texture of the same size 4096 x 2048 px and all the cities of Karelia can fit in them!  

Leningrad itself will require the same amount of texture space as all other cities, towns and villages on the map combined. We have a plan how to make the central metropolis of the map lightly but with an authentic look, with an almost correct layout but with generic blocks. That is, the way it looked in the beginning of the Operation Barbarossa in the July 22nd 1941.

P.S: Did you know that MSFS2020 also uses generic building objects? For that reason my grandparents' 100-year-old country house with its yard buildings and barns near the Russian border in Ilomantsi, North Karelia, looks mostly like an American suburban home. I didn't recognise the courtyard at all when my friend posted a screenshot of it! 

 

Hello,

I'm really looking forward to this map.
I've just read a historical novel about the ‘winter war’ (‘les guerriers de l'hiver’ by O. Norek - French writer). I can't wait to fly over this part of Finland.
All the best.

 

 

[LLv44_Kanttori]

1 hour ago, jollyjack said:

As for historics and IL-2 maps i consider latter as a game, mainly as they are far from accurate historically ...

Well, you can check the historical accuracy of the Karelia map after it has been published next summer...  
 

 Most of our map makers, myself included, are long-term military history enthusiasts, and we also have fully professionals and historians as assistants.

For example, the staff of the Finnish Air Force Museum and their very extensive archive that we have at our disposal. In addition to that, one of our experts is Carl- Fredrik Geust, who is the most famous Finnish aviation historian and the author of numerous books. We have e.g. his personal archive of the Red Air Force in full use. 

Of course, we make a playground and a "sandbox for big boys", but we also make a history project and Virtual Karelia as accurately as possible! 

 

[sevenless]

3 hours ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

Many issues related to airplanes are being resolved during this fall and I will tell you what we have planned with the FAF warbirds already next week.

 

Nice, Nice, Nice! 

[jollyjack]

4 hours ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

Well, you can check the historical accuracy of the Karelia map after it has been published next summer...  
 

 Most of our map makers, myself included, are long-term military history enthusiasts, and we also have fully professionals and historians as assistants.

For example, the staff of the Finnish Air Force Museum and their very extensive archive that we have at our disposal. In addition to that, one of our experts is Carl- Fredrik Geust, who is the most famous Finnish aviation historian and the author of numerous books. We have e.g. his personal archive of the Red Air Force in full use. 

Of course, we make a playground and a "sandbox for big boys", but we also make a history project and Virtual Karelia as accurately as possible! 

 

 

Eagerly awaiting it and will certainly donate towards the workers if all is well done ..

[jollyjack]

How does the Hurricane fit into the Finnish air-force? On haluter's there are blue swastickle bearing skins present marked as historica, made by szelljr.

The same also with the Uv2s BTW

[LeLv30_Redwing-]

9 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

How does the Hurricane fit into the Finnish air-force? On haluter's there are blue swastickle bearing skins present marked as historica, made by szelljr.

The same also with the Uv2s BTW

Finland bought 12 from England but they missed the Winter War and saw little action in Continuation War. There's one restored in Finnish Air Force Museum.

https://airforcemuseum.fi/museum objects/hawker-hurricane-mk-i-hc-452/


-LeLv30_Redwing

Edited September 27, 2024 by 30th_Deadthing

[Freycinet]

15 hours ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

Hello Freycinet!

I understand your opinion and we gladly accept all kinds of feedback, including negative feedback if you don't like something on our map, so thank you for your opinion! But you didn't take into account a few points from our screenshots, and that's why I'm writing this equivalent.  

 

 

Thank you for your very detailed posting, explaining all the work you put into the map. I respect and am thankful for your big effort.

[hootman]

Is the terrain a WIP? Some of the shots really look like late 90's-2000's terrain., a bland color mass.

[LLv44_Kanttori]

21 hours ago, hootman said:

Is the terrain a WIP? Some of the shots really look like late 90's-2000's terrain., a bland color mass.

 

The terrain is really WIP and completely raw! We are just starting to decorate it with nature textures.
 

The screenshots we shared of the unfinished map have caused so much negative feedback that we will limit showing them until we actually have something ready to show before Christmas. We need now peace at work and I don't have to tell the same things every time and to everyone. Once again and simply: Karelia 's  terrains, cities and in fact nothing is really close to being finished yet.                                                     

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

 

The terrain is really WIP and completely raw! We are just starting to decorate it with nature textures.
 

The screenshots we shared of the unfinished map have caused so much negative feedback that we will limit showing them until we actually have something ready to show before Christmas. We need now peace at work and I don't have to tell the same things every time and to everyone. Once again and simply: Karelia 's  terrains, cities and in fact nothing is really close to being finished yet.                                                     

 

Dont waste your time with marketing fluff.  Concentrate on the topic. There always will be naysayers. You cant help that. Ignore them. Your work is highly appreciated!

Edited September 29, 2024 by sevenless
Profanity

[ACG_Bussard]

I think it's a real pity how several years of work by volunteer third party developers are being talked down here. Don't forget the following facts:

 

- The Finland map under discussion here is probably one of the last maps for Great Battles, along with the Odessa map.

 

- It's well known that the game engine is no longer the freshest. I'm sure the guys will get the maximum out of it. It's their home.

 

- Do you know what the Finnish landscape really looks like? Maybe take a look at the movies "Unknown Soldier" or "Final Defense" for comparison. Quite a lot of forest, isn't it?

 

-We don't even know what 1CGS wants to charge for the DLC yet. As long as we don't know the price, we should hold back from making any judgments. On top of that, it will probably be available to everyone online without purchase. So why the negative comments?

 

I'm really looking forward to the Finland and Leningrad scenario, finally a new and fresh scenario for the years to come! Just my 2 or 3 cents.

[Aapje]

11 hours ago, LLv44_Kanttori said:

The screenshots we shared of the unfinished map have caused so much negative feedback that we will limit showing them until we actually have something ready to show before Christmas.                          

 

Keep in mind that people that are content tend to be silent. I personally think that the shown screenshots looked great.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

25 minutes ago, Aapje said:

I personally think that the shown screenshots looked great.

Yeah, me too.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

[LuftManu]

10 hours ago, ACG_Bussard said:

I think it's a real pity how several years of work by volunteer third party developers are being talked down here. Don't forget the following facts:

 

- The Finland map under discussion here is probably one of the last maps for Great Battles, along with the Odessa map.

 

- It's well known that the game engine is no longer the freshest. I'm sure the guys will get the maximum out of it. It's their home.

 

- Do you know what the Finnish landscape really looks like? Maybe take a look at the movies "Unknown Soldier" or "Final Defense" for comparison. Quite a lot of forest, isn't it?

 

-We don't even know what 1CGS wants to charge for the DLC yet. As long as we don't know the price, we should hold back from making any judgments. On top of that, it will probably be available to everyone online without purchase. So why the negative comments?

 

I'm really looking forward to the Finland and Leningrad scenario, finally a new and fresh scenario for the years to come! Just my 2 or 3 cents.

 

I totally agree, Bussard.

The volunteer team, with great effort, has made a great map. It's coming alongside another early and late front map that will be a great companion.
1CGS is going to help finish this map and probably add career so it's another full fledged expansion like the official ones. I am sure the Finnish team will be happy to hear this.

The screenshots we've been shown are looking great too.

Count me in to buy it and I hope this team team keeps making maps for Great Battles or the next Il-2 series.

Kind regards,

In another note and as a moderator, please be polite with your suggestion and comments, people. It takes nothing to be more gentle when expressing an opinion. Just a reminder

 

Have a great day.

[Trooper117]

It all looks good to me...

[LLv44_Damixu]

Keep up the good work.

I don't get the criticism of rough looking terrain, the terrain is what the game engine provides, but what I've seen on the pictures and videos provided by the map team, the content quality is above the level any other map so far in IL-2. Looks really like the Karelian landscape and housing were back then.

 

 

[CzechTexan]

The negative comments are out of line.  The map work is being done mostly by volunteers on their own time.  I have made maps before, in the old IL-2, and I can tell you, it's not that easy.  And, my maps were not nearly as accurate as the maps I've seen in this sim.  This Karelia map seems to be very accurate and all workers should be commended!  Some people don't understand that the map-makers practically add every detail one-thing-at-a-time.  It's a lot of work. 

You cannot just tell A/I to generate a map and "BINGO!"  - a map appears and it looks like the real world.

 

Yes, the game engine has limitations, therefore, the natural scenery is not going to be totally realistic.  Do we all want a map that is totally realistic? - of course we all do!

I think that most of us know that it's just not possible with the technology, yet.

Keep up the good work, guys!

[jollyjack]

if it's anywhere near the Prokhorovka's details i would be happy with any map detailing ....

Edited September 29, 2024 by jollyjack