A20 Havoc in Normandy or Rhineland career mode?

[bluedragon]

I enjoy the career mode in a bomber, either the PE2 or the A20, but am surprised that the A20 is not featured in either the Normandy or Rhineland careers. It seems a bit daft considering the A20 was regularly flown in those theatres. Are there anys plan to integrate this.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The A20 we have is not the one flown by the USAAF or RAF in 1944.

[Enceladus828]

Luke brought it up here that the cockpit of the A-20 in the game has a lot of Soviet modifications so there would have to be work done in order for the RAF or USAAF version to be in the Normandy and Rheinland careers. 

[LukeFF]

33 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

Luke brought it up here that the cockpit of the A-20 in the game has a lot of Soviet modifications so there would have to be work done in order for the RAF or USAAF version to be in the Normandy and Rheinland careers. 

 

Yes, and as BP wrote above, the model we have now was no longer active over the ETO by the spring of 1944. It had been superseded by then with later marks of the A-20 and the A-26.

[Gambit21]

4 hours ago, Enceladus828 said:

Luke brought it up here that the cockpit of the A-20 in the game has a lot of Soviet modifications so there would have to be work done in order for the RAF or USAAF version to be in the Normandy and Rheinland careers. 

 

Well only a very few would care anything about the cockpit modifications IMHO - few users are than pedantic if it means they can fly the aircraft.

 

There was a 9th TAC outfit that flew a few older A-20B's in Belgium later in the war, night missions, interdiction, dropping mines etc.

I created a randomized mission template for this on the Rhineland map a few years ago with the intention to turn it over to Jason to include in the sim.

 

Essentially everything randomized, targets, convoys, friendly AC, enemy night fighters, trains, etc etc. 

So fly it over and over, always different. All this to say that the current aircraft could be included for use in Belgium, for this unit/career if it wasn't for the overly pedantic "exact version or bust" thing. 

[R33GZ]

Or jeez, I dunno.... maybe do the B25 or B26? 

 

I know, I know. It's too hard or something something to that effect 🙄

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, R33GZ said:

Or jeez, I dunno.... maybe do the B25 or B26? 

 

I know, I know. It's too hard or something something to that effect 🙄

 

We've explained many, many times why we aren't doing those planes, and those reasons are not going to change. The opportunity is still there, though, if a third party wants to build one themselves.

[KodiakJac]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

We've explained many, many times why we aren't doing those planes, and those reasons are not going to change.

 

I know, I know.  Instead, another obscure fighter like the Ta-152 for Daniel and Albert to play with in MP 😉

[LukeFF]

The 152 is obscure?

[KodiakJac]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The 152 is obscure?

 

Most sources cite less than 100 Ta-152s reaching operational status by the end of the war.

 

In Hitler's Eagles, p.195, Chris McNab states, "... production examples of the Ta 152H started to leave the Focke-Wulf plant in November 1944, and by the time the factory was abandoned in 1945, 150 examples had been delivered to the Luftwaffe. Most of these aircraft were issued to JG 301."

 

According to Peter Rodeike, Focke-Wulf Jagdflugzeug p.438, "44 Ta 152 H-0/V and 25 Ta 152 H-1 were built; total Ta 152 production is unknown."

 

"Between October 1944 and February 1945 when production ended, Focke-Wulf managed to roll 67 completed Ta 152 aircraft (H-0, H-1, and C-1 models) off the line but these fighters put on a disappointing show. Some aircraft were lost to engine fires while a variety of other engine problems and spares shortages grounded most of the fleet. By April 30, 1945, only two Ta 152C-1s remained operational." - The Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum (SI.edu)

 

"It is believed that, in all, Ta-152 airmen amassed a fairly meager amount of total aerial victories (sources vary but range between 7 and 10 enemy aircraft) to the loss of 4 of their own.  By the time of Germany's formal surrender, just two Ta-152 examples were known to be operational." - MilitaryFactory.com

 

Less than 100 operational aircraft with 7 to 10 aerial victories in WWII = obscure 🙂

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2024 by KodiakJac

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Ta 152 may or may not be obscure but it is definitely functionally not relevant for GB.

 

It has no real use of doing what it was made for i.e intercepting B17s at 40k ft.

 

It is a fun plane to try and deploy but it is very much an oddity.

 

I don't see a reason to take it over the D9 unless it is high altitude work or unless you have a very short time to climb.

Edited September 22, 2024 by -TBC-AeroAce

[LukeFF]

9 hours ago, -TBC-AeroAce said:

It has no real use of doing what it was made for i.e intercepting B17s at 40k ft.

 

Except that in reality not a single B-17 was intercepted. 
 

11 hours ago, KodiakJac said:

Less than 100 operational aircraft with 7 to 10 aerial victories in WWII = obscure 🙂

 

Final production variant of the Fw 190 and is generally well known among WWII aviation enthusiasts, despite its short operational history, so maybe not so obscure. 🙂

The point remains, guys: despite efforts from several persons to find the references needed to build the C/D B-25, it just wasn't meant to be. In the end, it was decided to make other planes where the references were there and would not take a massive amount of time to build. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Except that in reality not a single B-17 was intercepted.

 

I was talking about its intented historical used and its relevance in the game.

 

There is no real opportunity in sim to use it how it is meant to be used.

[sevenless]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Except that in reality not a single B-17 was intercepted. 

 

Hmmm, might not exactly be the case. Anyways lots of info surely is lost in the mist of time. There is one report though:

 

On 18 February the Stabstaffel shifted to Sachau, west of Berlin in order to exploit the possibilities for combat over the Hauptstadt and on 21 February encountered US bombers for the first time. During the ensuing combats, Oberfeldwebel Josef Keil flying "Green 3" claimed a B-17 shot down at 16:30 over Berlin. On 1 March Keil flew a sortie in the Kommodore's "Green 1" and claimed a P-51 over the same sector.

 

FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: April 2010

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Hmmm, might not exactly be the case. Anyways lots of info surely is lost in the mist of time. There is one report though:

 

On 18 February the Stabstaffel shifted to Sachau, west of Berlin in order to exploit the possibilities for combat over the Hauptstadt and on 21 February encountered US bombers for the first time. During the ensuing combats, Oberfeldwebel Josef Keil flying "Green 3" claimed a B-17 shot down at 16:30 over Berlin. On 1 March Keil flew a sortie in the Kommodore's "Green 1" and claimed a P-51 over the same sector.

 

FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: April 2010

 

Alright, thanks, that's the first time I've heard that.

[bluedragon]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting points raised. I didn't realise that the A20 in the game is an earlier version which wasn't present on the Western Front. However, being pedantic, if that is the case how come it is present in career mode as an non-controllable plane? It shouldn't be there at all. Wouldn't it be relatively straightforward to offer newer versions of the plane that were used by the US and British. It would just need a US bombsight and bomb loads and an updated cockpit.

 

I also agree about the reservations with the TA152. Hardly any of those planes ever saw operational service but we have a purchase one in the game which seems a bit odd. Wouldn't an updated A20 or maybe a new B25 be a more historically relavant addition to the game?

Edited September 28, 2024 by bluedragon

[BlitzPig_EL]

The most used A20 by the time of Normandy was the A20G. It is quite different internally, having a power operated dorsal turret, and many having a solid nose with 8 M2 Browning .50 machine guns.  This would not be a simple upgraded model from the one currently in the game.  Sadly.

[Art-J]

What is or isn't obsure is irrelevant nowadays.

 

With majority of core devs' time and resources shifted to Korea project and GB developmet winding down or being redirected to 3rd parties, a single engine & cockpit aircraft will always be more likely to show up in GB than a twin with multiple crew stations to be built from scratch or modified. Even if the latter would make more sense for current maps and campaigns. As was explained ad nauseam, unless you find some 3rd party willing to work on such a plane in their spare time, it's not going to happen.