6 weeks to go......

[No.54_Reddog]

24 minutes ago, jdu said:

I don't know.  Probably all of them.
Wait...  With your background, you could apply to TFS.
Weren't you the ones talking about relaunching Storm of War on CloD?
Many of us were enthusiastic about the idea.  Too bad it stayed in our imagination.
Technical restrictions perhaps, or character incompatibility?  It doesn't matter because there's a way to fix it, right?
Sometimes it's good to forget the past and move forward.

Oh I've been invited to rejoin TFS. I've declined. It's highly unlikely I could have helped with the current crop of issues anyway.

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, Dawson said:

I believe you're mistaken about this.

 

Seems there is no mechanism or obligation for TFS members to acknowledge their status.

[DD_Arthur]

On 9/21/2024 at 9:08 AM, Missionbug said:

 

Not sure, usually Buzzsaw will anounce any news that is relevant for those of us waiting for news, however,  it has to first be given the all clear by the actual owners of the sim as to what and when any information is posted out on the forum.

 

Hi Pete. I remember this as one of the explanations given previously for the lack of any meaningful communication but frankly it was just more of the usual obfuscation by the 'leadership' that we've had to get used to for over a decade now.

Fulcrum Publishing; the owners of this title, don't really give two hoots about Cliffs.

They bought it as part of a job lot of ancient, largely defunct titles from 1C when that publishing house restructured their holdings.

Games such as 'King's Bounty', 'Death to Spies' and 'My little pony goes to Stalingrad Episode IV' collectively provide a small but steady income through a drip of continued Steam downloads.

Must have been a surprise to some obscure manager in Fulqrum to find out someone was still trying to develop one of these turkeys....

 

[BOO]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

My little pony goes to Stalingrad Episode IV

 

 

🙂 

[Hoots]

2 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

'My little pony goes to Stalingrad Episode IV'

 

5 stars, would buy again. 
 

[Dagwoodyt]

On 9/21/2024 at 1:08 AM, Missionbug said:

Not sure, usually Buzzsaw will anounce any news that is relevant for those of us waiting for news, however,  it has to first be given the all clear by the actual owners of the sim as to what and when any information is posted out on the forum.

I wonder if Fulqrum knows or cares about the nightfighter game being proposed🙃 or the poll for which ATAG registration/vetting is mandatory😊

[Mysticpuma]

On 9/21/2024 at 9:08 AM, Missionbug said:

 

Not sure, usually Buzzsaw will anounce any news that is relevant for those of us waiting for news, however,  it has to first be given the all clear by the actual owners of the sim as to what and when any information is posted out on the forum.

 

While that has been a useful get out clause, this fortunately is now not the case in regard to the expected December release of V6.

Originally everything about V6 was shrouded in mystery, with conversation saying that TFS really wanted to let us know about the future development inc. V6 but they weren't allowed to. Finally we were told that they had finally been allowed to discuss future plans and that is when we got to read about 190's and Fortresses.

So, we are aware of what has been proposed for V6, there is no secrecy clause about progress, we are now simply in an information vacuum awaiting any crumbs to be tossed in our direction. 

 

What appears clear is that TFS are consistent in there inability to engage with their potential customers and with just 3 months to go, the likelyhood is that the ATAG questionnaire will simply ask;

"Hi, we have been unable to get FAF ready for the promised release in December,  so would you be happy for us to release the expansion without VR and the promise of it coming at a later date or would you rather we delay the release until everything we promised is ready.....but we could be looking at another year at least?"

 

I mean what choice is there but to wait, because if you say you'll pay full price for the expansion without VR, it's already been Eight and a half years since VR work began, is there any realistic chance VR will ever make it into CloD?

Edited September 22, 2024 by Mysticpuma

[Dagwoodyt]

Remember how many pre-announcements of "important" TF 6.0 announcements came and went? So now a special future-critical poll is announced in Summer and the window for its' announcement: 3 months long.😉

[BOO]

1 hour ago, Mysticpuma said:

 

"Hi, we have been unable to get FAF ready for the promised release in December,  so would you be happy for us to release the expansion without VR and the promise of it coming at a later date or would you rather we delay the release until everything we promised is ready.....but we could be looking at another year at least?"

 

 

I would sincerely hope such descisions are based on more than an on line poll that is limited in scope both by the size of remaining current community and its hosting. I've said before, if it were the case, I'd be concerned that VR opinions would be somewhat over represented given the "recuitment" of that segment into the beta over the pst few years. 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

 

I would sincerely hope such descisions are based on more than an on line poll that is limited in scope both by the size of remaining current community and its hosting. I've said before, if it were the case, I'd be concerned that VR opinions would be somewhat over represented given the "recuitment" of that segment into the beta over the pst few years. 

Polls can be structured to assure a desired outcome. I really wouldn't sweat it. If VR still crashes the game and Speedtree 8/9 is still in alpha I don't think it matters what the VR beta testers would prefer. From a customer relations standpoint it would seem to have been better to first formulate the poll and present it upon its' announcement. If TFS insists on accepting votes exclusively from vetted and registered ATAG members, customers on this forum could then decide whether or not they want to register on the ATAG forum and would have time to entreat for amnesty for prior offenses if they should so desire.🙂

[Mysticpuma]

So, what do we know with 2 months to go?

 

[Koziolek]

21 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

So, what do we know with 2 months to go?

 

The same

[Dagwoodyt]

Best wishes to the TF 6.0 beta team👍

Edited October 7, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[BOO]

3 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

So, what do we know with 2 months to go?

 

 

We know how to get a thread locked

[BOO]

At this point, if we are realistic, TFS doesnt really have anything to gain by breaking cover. Those of us desperate for news are too few to affect anything with pressure.  Also anything but news that everything is ready and on track will only result in negative comments from a few against which nothing positive can be done. It would only serve as a negative distraction to TFS from their standpoint. 

 

It would seem Fulqum has nothing but a passing interest in the title so a lack of progress isnt likely to result in any rights being withdrawn or reallocated. And whilst TFS holds the title of "offical" developer and that development is active, there is zero scope for any other direction or for anyone who thinks differently to become involved. 

 

So we are where we are. And nothing is going to change it. Those of us frustrated are now really nothing more than the gaming equvalent of the old ex Greenham Common lady in her knackered caravan who used to protest against drones outside of RAF Waddington. We are still here for sure, but totally ignorable and largely irrelevant. 

 

 

[Hoots]

50 minutes ago, BOO said:

. Those of us frustrated are now really nothing more than the gaming equvalent of the old ex Greenham Common lady in her knackered caravan who used to protest against drones outside of RAF Waddington. We are still here for sure, but totally ignorable and largely irrelevant. 

 

 

 

That is one niche descriptor, I don't know if I'm more annoyed how apt it is or that I'm old enough to remember those kinds of people.

[Dagwoodyt]

"totally ignorable"

 

apparently not😉

Edited October 8, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[Dagwoodyt]

Seven weeks until off on much needed Holidays break?🤔

[marcost]

Ah, the Greenham Common ladies. I lived locally to the base and had a brief sojourn at the imaginitively titled 'Counter Cruise Cosmic Carnival', must have been about 1982.

 

Different times.

 

The missiles went and the base is back to a common now, so never give up on your struggle 😉

[l_commando]

Not to throw too much shade (Ha), but apparently OBD Studios has implemented TrueSky into Wings Over Flanders Fields. Presumably an older version but still.

[5th_Barone]

On 10/7/2024 at 8:45 PM, Mysticpuma said:

So, what do we know with 2 months to go?

 

Nothing new. And what do we do?

The same we did since the good old 4.3 times my friend... We wait, we're quite good at doing that.

Jokes apart, it seems TFS is under radio silence (not replying even on bug reporting posts here and on atag), don't know if its their thing or fulcrum's but we just have to wait to see if something will come out from the clod universe.

Edited October 8, 2024 by 5th_Barone

[Dagwoodyt]

12 minutes ago, 5th_Barone said:

Nothing new. And what do we do?

The same we did since the good old 4.3 times my friend... We wait, we're quite good at doing that.

Jokes apart, it seems TFS is under radio silence (not replying even on bug reporting posts here and on atag), don't know if its their thing or fulcrum's but we just have to wait to see if something will come out from the clod universe.

When "modder" mindset prevails in a project that has become commercialized, customers are left to grapple with the mismatch.😒

[BOO]

I mean........someone could just have gone on Holiday......

[FurphyForum]

Or.... may have been replaced. 🙄

Edited October 9, 2024 by FurphyForum

[BOO]

5 hours ago, FurphyForum said:

Or.... may have been replaced. 🙄

 

That took a turn for the sinister quickly! 🙂 

[354thFG_Leifr]

Project abandoned. 😙

[Aapje]

Remember that Duke Nukem Forever still came out after being in development for 14 years, :

 

 

But I would personally suggest you guys just adopt the mindset that it will never come, then you won't get frustrated at every delay and when/if it comes, it's a nice surprise.

[Buffo002]

Again, some individuals solve something 2 or 3 months ahead of release and criticize. Like a lot of other people I have a lot of other games through steam and over the holidays until now, there have been almost no upgrades for other games, so why would or should TFS have an upgrade every now and then. Don't criticize until around Christmas when the deadline is due ... and let the developers work.
In addition, thanks to the CoD break, I finally found the super program il2dcg in IL-2 1946, which modifies the Dgen origin (campaign generation)
the campaigns are more extensive than in the original and so far there is a lot to play and a lot of campaigns.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Buffo002

[AtomicP]

10 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

When "modder" mindset prevails in a project that has become commercialized, customers are left to grapple with the mismatch.😒

 

At this point I must mention Falcon BMS which is still a free mod of Falcon 4.0 but is organised and developed really well. They seem to have an excellent group of coders and artists with a fairly regular cadence of substantive updates. The sheer number of improvements from the original 1998 game is mind boggling. Anyway, modding can be run successfully but it's difficult. I'd say that now it's probably even harder for the CloD devs because the playerbase is small and diminishing and the competition is fierce: maintaining motivation must be really hard right now.

[5th_Barone]

46 minutes ago, Buffo002 said:

Again, some individuals solve something 2 or 3 months ahead of release and criticize. Like a lot of other people I have a lot of other games through steam and over the holidays until now, there have been almost no upgrades for other games, so why would or should TFS have an upgrade every now and then. Don't criticize until around Christmas when the deadline is due ... and let the developers work.
In addition, thanks to the CoD break, I finally found the super program il2dcg in IL-2 1946, which modifies the Dgen origin (campaign generation)
the campaigns are more extensive than in the original and so far there is a lot to play and a lot of campaigns.

I'm in the same train as Aapje.

Don't expect anything anymore, if something will ever be out it's a plus.

 

But just to maybe let you understand why some others of the old guard still ask for news.

Clod community has been in the same situation back in the days (almost 8 years ago) when TFS was not even an official developer but still a modding group (at least on paper) so some of the people that have gone through this waiting process for TF5 (the original idea not the package that was released later) / bugfixing for TF4.5 / waiting for the VU and VR etc., now wants news because they know release dates never were the strength of TF.

Long story short.

 

But I agree with the "let's wait and see, if something ever will come out we'll enjoy it."

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I hope guys who are waiting for new content will be happy in the end but there are new CFS in the horizon and definitely they will gather sim fans. I doubt cliffs are able to do it and if  only doezn ppl will be multiplayer  active during weekends is not what most of us are waiting for. 

[Dagwoodyt]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

But I would personally suggest you guys just adopt the mindset that it will never come, then you won't get frustrated at every delay and when/if it comes, it's a nice surprise.

Folks easily frustrated likely left long ago😉

[Mysticpuma]

6 hours ago, AtomicP said:

 

At this point I must mention Falcon BMS which is still a free mod of Falcon 4.0 but is organised and developed really well. They seem to have an excellent group of coders and artists with a fairly regular cadence of substantive updates. The sheer number of improvements from the original 1998 game is mind boggling. Anyway, modding can be run successfully but it's difficult. I'd say that now it's probably even harder for the CloD devs because the playerbase is small and diminishing and the competition is fierce: maintaining motivation must be really hard right now.

What the Modders have done with Falcon 4 is immense for a 26-year-old game:

 

TFS are now a commercial entity rather than a modding group as they are officially gatekeepers of the source code. 

You mention regular and substantive updates, which I don't think anyone here is raising an issue with.

 

I think the big frustration is that there are a lot of people (the hangers on and often seen as naysayers), who actually do want to see this product succeed (after all they are still here when others have walked away and given up), but know deep down that the more TFS hide away and refuse to speak about their product, the less chance there is to drive conversation and bring others in to bolster the awful numbers who are left playing this game.

I know when I boot this game up, turn on Truesky (in beta) and see just how amazing it looks, that it should be a flight sim people are clamouring for, however, the length of delays, the lack of communication,  the lack of engagement and what feels like indignation on the part of the Devs towards its community, it's just mind numbing when you consider the scope they are indicating they have, yet the actual progress they share.

 

Have TFS left the building?

 

[FTC_Oakwoodson]

It is very disheartening to see the great job Snapper is doing on the models for the B17 (And I imagine Lancaster too?) only to be hampered by such poor comunication and punctuality from Buzzsaw, or whoever's in charge of the decision making over at Team Fussion. It is practically inevitable that the deadline TFS themselves set will not be met this year, though it is somewhat promising that the updates to the VR beta have been rather frequent in the last 4-6 weeks. 

Honest communication goes a long way in retaining your player and customer base. 

Cliffs can and should thrive, but certain features must come into place first. The scale it offers, the amazing bomber experience, all of these and more are a mark of a great product. TFS's vision for the future in dev notes now seems rather silly, considering TF 6.0, VR and Dieppe DLC's are all not delivered yet and most likely, won't be delivered on time. Of course, delays are a normal occurence in flight sim world, but perhaps it is now time to actually make a sound assesment of what you can actually deliver and when? Better yet, why not have it ready and functioning before you start writing checks you can't cash? The single worst thing you can do right now is to wait for the days to run down and let 2025 roll in without a single, honest announcement about what is happening behind the scenes. Get ahead of it and be upfront about where the progress is at and what is actually required to get it done. 

 

[Aapje]

The difficulty with comparing modded games is that it's almost certain that some games are way easier to mod than others. So perhaps the Falcon team is better, or perhaps TF is not the best platform, but they are stuck with it, because it is at the core of the game.  Or some of both.

 

In particular, a platform that causes unpredictable results is very unpleasant to program for, because you can't gradually and predictably make progress. As a programmer you make something, and then you are chasing very hard to fix bugs for a very unpredictable amount of time.

[Dagwoodyt]

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

The difficulty with comparing modded games is that it's almost certain that some games are way easier to mod than others. So perhaps the Falcon team is better, or perhaps TF is not the best platform, but they are stuck with it, because it is at the core of the game.  Or some of both.

I recall that quirks of the CloD game engine were commented on by a pre-TF CloD team leader. MP would likely recall the name. I believe I remember relatively recent suggestion that Simul and/or Speedtree might be less than enthusiastic about dealing with certain "unique" game engines. Perhaps I am misremembering🤔 At any rate the considerations you raise have been mentioned before, probably in multiple threads.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[No.54_Reddog]

The issues TF face dealing with the technology are inherent in the project. Unless they port to another engine entirely (which is not on the cards and shouldn't be) they will need to cope with that in line with their own stated goals.

 

One of the problems for the community (all 12 of us or whatever it is now) is the lack of faith in any stated deadline, timescale or release date. This comes down to BASIC project management or the lack thereof in determining the amount of effort required and feasibility of achieving the desired goals.

 

Another key problem is what those goals are and the decision making to determine them. It has always felt to me, going back to when I was actively running a server, like we the community wanted X, but TF wanted Y.

 

You only need to look and talk to (frequently ex) members of TF to see how much work has been done by volunteers on things which have never been released, including things which the community asked for. That is down to decisions made to do things a very particular way, and that way only.

 

TF not responding to criticism is nothing new btw. Total radio silence has been the norm in periods before.

 

At the end of the day we shall see if they honour their commitments or not in approx 80 days or so won't we?

[Mysticpuma]

14 hours ago, FTC_Oakwoodson said:

It is very disheartening to see the great job Snapper is doing on the models for the B17 (And I imagine Lancaster too?) only to be hampered by such poor comunication and punctuality from Buzzsaw, or whoever's in charge of the decision making over at Team Fussion.

Snapper is now a 3D Modeller?

[Aapje]

5 hours ago, No.54_Reddog said:

One of the problems for the community (all 12 of us or whatever it is now) is the lack of faith in any stated deadline, timescale or release date. This comes down to BASIC project management or the lack thereof in determining the amount of effort required and feasibility of achieving the desired goals.

 

Project management is not a panacea.

 

Ultimately, in most projects there is an amount of uncertainty, and generic or more tailored project management techniques can be used to reduce some uncertainty, or plan in a guess at how much extra time or costs you will encounter, but it can't just remove all uncertainty. And software development in particular can have a rather high level of uncertainty, although it can also differ a huge amount depending on the particular project/task.

One of the main reasons is that software development is about creating something new, which is fundamentally less predictable than following an established, tried and tested procedure. If I have a working factory to make paperclips, then I can just measure how long it takes the machine to bend a paperclip. A new paperclip is going to be produced in exactly the same way as already created paperclips, so I can just look at how long it took to create a paperclip the past to predict how long it will take in the future. Of course, I can have disruptions, like the machine breaking down or the operator getting sick. With proper management, I can then make choices like how much I am willing to spend to mitigate those issues when they occur (for example, by keeping spare parts on hand, or an entire spare machine, having a spare operator, etc). The things that can go wrong tend to be relatively limited and relatively easy to manage.

 

But with software development you can't look at the past, or simply follow a procedure, because you are innovating. And things are often so complex and so many possible things can go wrong, that it is impossible to create safeguards against all the things that can go wrong. And it's not just even about actually producing the software. Even the functional demands of what the software should do tend to be very fluid, where people can change their opinions by a great amount along the way, better understanding what they actually want, rather than what they think they want.

 

A lot of software development specific project management techniques are actually about not treating it as something predictable and fighting uncertainty, but taking the uncertainty as a given.

 

For example, with agile project management you don't commit to a set of features beforehand, but you allocate a certain budget and then you build the features that seem most useful at every point in time, constantly reevaluating what is the most useful. And you (can) put software into the hand of users as soon as possible, because people are poor at abstract thinking, so they are much better able to understand what they actually want, when they are already using a partially finished product.

 

And a common technique is to have predictable release dates, but simply release whatever is done at that date, rather than promise specific set of features. Because otherwise a stubborn feature that takes way longer than expected will cause enormous delays, also of things that are actually done. So then your feedback cycle is disrupted, which in turn causes other features to take longer as well, so things spiral out of control.

 

But at the end of the day, there is no silver bullet, and if a specific feature is required, but the date at which that feature is done is highly unclear and can be months or years, then no reliable deadline can be given. Although it is always a choice and not necessarily a smart one, to then make a date public.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Aapje

[Dagwoodyt]

From prior posts regarding an ATAG registration requirement for customer input  I can see how Fulqrum might believe it advantageous to have CloD represented in the Il-2 forums while TFS might prefer to retreat to the ATAG forum where it exercises complete control.