Either I'm impressively bad, or the statement that the 109 is a great beginner's plane is a lie.

[Lens7]

I'll prefix this with saying I have over 100 hours in Falcon BMS (the exact number is hard to come by because I've lost my logbooks multiple times), and another 60+ in Il-2 BoS. 

 

I started with a bit of dogfighting when I got this game, after supposedly being told that the 109 is the preferred beginners plane, flew a bit of single player, seemed alright.

Then moving on to flying in Berloga, and I just seem to be getting walloped over and over and over again. The chain of events is something akin to the following: 

1. I try a dive upon an enemy (though a good 50% of the time the enemy is either already at a higher altitude and they're diving upon me before I can even make my climb or hugging the deck so much any attempt at climbing makes them borderline invisible, but I'm ignoring those for now)
2. The enemy either:
   -Turns and manages to get a head on shot off
   -Merely does a vertical merge, and then sets himself up on my six if I extend or climb, with predictable results
   -Dodges right out of the way
3. At which point either I climb away and either get shot by a bandit who wasn't on my tail when I checked right before the attack or the target himself turns well away and is nowhere to be seen if I make a second dive afterwards (if not outright on my six)
4. Pressing the attack and ending up in a turning fight where I end up losing eventually.
5. Somehow not getting shot during either of these and then it's either a Fw I misidentified as a Yak, or a teammate takes my target out in a single perfect burst I have yet to pull off seconds before I can get my sights on him.

If its neither of these 2, I'll somehow misjudge the lead and dump half of my ammo for a single wing tank leak.

And of course after all of these I will get shot afterwards anyways.

 

I've gone over all of Requiem's vids and Sherrif's tutorial on the 109, and even tried the Yak-1 to see if it's actually as good as it seems when on the receiving end. That doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I don't understand what I'm doing so wrong. Please help me understand.

[HazMatt]

First off I'm no master but I have experienced some of the things you noted so I wanted see if I could help by adding my experiences.

 

It seems on that sever that some players can recognize the players vs the AI and will hang out at high alts and bounce the players when they engage the AI. (something to keep in the back of your mind when you're flying there)

 

Personally I think the Spit or Tempest is a better plane to start with. I think the 109 takes some getting used to.

1. I try a dive upon an enemy (though a good 50% of the time the enemy is either already at a higher altitude and they're diving upon me before I can even make my climb or hugging the deck so much any attempt at climbing makes them borderline invisible, but I'm ignoring those for now) Ya, the AI is high but the other players are usually higher then the drones. I try to keep my e state up when flying in there unless I'm shooting something.
2. The enemy either:
   -Turns and manages to get a head on shot off
   -Merely does a vertical merge, and then sets himself up on my six if I extend or climb, with predictable results
   -Dodges right out of the way    I roll and pull right as they close to gun range to throw off the head on shot. If I have 30mm I shoot them in the face. The vertical merge thing sounds like he has more e then you. I'd try to get some more alt before engaging or split-s and drag them down to try and equalize the e-states.
3. At which point either I climb away and either get shot by a bandit who wasn't on my tail when I checked right before the attack or the target himself turns well away and is nowhere to be seen if I make a second dive afterwards (if not outright on my six) I try to find a friendly plane that engaged and then shoot the one off his tail since his wingman will most likely be shooting at the friendly.
4. Pressing the attack and ending up in a turning fight where I end up losing eventually. I've found that using yo-yos seems to work better then trying to flat turn in a 109. This depends on which 109 you're flying. The early models seem to turn better but the later models seem to be better in the vertical in my experience.
5. Somehow not getting shot during either of these and then it's either a Fw I misidentified as a Yak, or a teammate takes my target out in a single perfect burst I have yet to pull off seconds before I can get my sights on him. The plane ID takes time. I've gotten better at it over time but I still goof up sometimes. Sometimes I have to fly up close enough to see the markings and by that time I've missed a good shot. Ya, those guys that clear 12 are the worst. I'm tempted to shoot them sometimes.

If its neither of these 2, I'll somehow misjudge the lead and dump half of my ammo for a single wing tank leak. This is another one that I think will fix itself with time. I don't shoot until I'm really close and have a good shot. Sometimes this will take a while and you'll have to keep checking your 6.

 

Hope this helps.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

Your questions too big for a forum post, but it's normal to die horribly while not even knowing what you're doing wrong at the start. You're doing the right thing, you just need to put more time in. I learned most of what I know by getting wrecked in Deathmatch arenas, and asking myself why did the other guy do what he did? But most of what they do likely won't be decipherable without reading/watching dogfighting stuff like the vids you mentioned. So just keep building a library in your head of all the dogfighting knowledge you can find, and keep getting wrecked and asking questions, and eventually it will start clicking after a lot of pain. Don't go into Berloga expecting to do well, go in expecting to get wrecked and learn. 

People usually recommend the 109 as a good beginner plane because it has easy engine management, centerline cannons, and is good at BnZ, not because flying it will turn you into an ace dogfighter. I'd recomend the Yak as a good learning plane, because it handles nice but the crappy engine and guns/ammo count will teach you good habits by punishing you're mistakes.

[c19580]

It took me at least a year before being able to start getting kills consistently. Also started with 109.

 

although I think the 109 is great, it’s generally worse at turn radious vs spits and acceleration vs spits an p51s.

 

if you get a good pilot on your six it’s generally game over.

 

what I found I had to improve was the decisions I was making on picking my battles and when to engage, keeping the energy advantage and keeping calm when in a fight.

[BOO]

I have really nothing to offer over whats been said but I think the very fact you are not screaming about borked FMs and the like speaks volumes about you having the right attiitude to learn quickly.

 

The 109 is a boom and zoomer not really a "scrapper". Its relatively easy to use but needs discipline and a good energy advantage.  As soon as you start to turn it you are loosing advantage. Good pilots are expert energy vampires and will con you into giving away your E without you realising. When the red mist falls and you start chasing tails, you'll loose as much as 50-100 k/mh over what you should have in a second. Personally Id never trade E to chase a turning foe in a contested zone though I may consider Yo-Yos and lag pursuit if the odds were favourable (1 v 1s, lots of friendly cover, a clearly inexperienced foe etc)  . Usually though, youve already lost the element of surprise if the target is taking evasive action and the resultant chase is only going to make you slower and slower. You might kill your quarry but you'll be left vulnerable. Go back up to alt and either forget him or set up another pass. 

 

Squads are not for everyone online, but a good squad (or even  working in a regular pair) can bring your learning on very quickly and protect you from attack. 

[Isra]

I'm afraid I can not help you in any way, but I just wanted to thank you for showing me that I'm not the only rookie that sucks ... 

 

We will get there someday my friend, we will ... 

 

 

[Lens7]

17 hours ago, HazMatt said:

 

Personally I think the Spit or Tempest is a better plane to start with. I think the 109 takes some getting used to.

 

If you don't mind me asking about the Spit, does it have to specifically be one of the later models or the MkVb from Deluxe Kuban is good enough? Also, what makes that better than the 109? If it's better turning, any attempts at trying turnfighting for me in the Yak 1.ser69  against a 109 G2 in QMB hoping to see that maybe a turn and burn type aircraft is what I'm actually looking for, but I got my butt handed to me there as well, least of all because of either the AI (on the second lowest difficulty) again riddling me with 20mm at the merge, being stuck in a perpetual one circle where any attempts at tightening the turn threaten to stall the aircraft, or again, running out of ammo not only because I seem to be terrible at pulling lead, but the much lower ammo capacity of the Yak makes my inaccuracy even more a problem. 
The only times I've managed to get a 'kill' on it seem to be when I eventually get close enough to hit my rounds, somehow still fail to shoot it down, fail to evade and knock a wing off of both of us in a collision.

Edited August 9, 2024 by Lens7

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

If you do choose the spit (or tempest for similar reasons) just know that its one of the best planes for finding early success, but it will hurt you in the long term, as its also one of the worst for learning. It's pitch axis is unique to all the other planes because it has neutral static stability, so it doesn't get you used to how a normal plane flies. Also its dogfighting performance is so good you can make lots of mistakes and still win the fight without even knowing you're making mistakes, because the plane will win the fight for you, which is bad for learning. But its up to you, and whether you want to prioritize early success, or to embrace the pain train and learn faster. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

If your doing QMB's for practice don't feel one bit embarrassed handicapping your opposition.  If for example your fighting a Yak or Spit where there are multiple series, pick an early one and load it up with full fuel and rockets or bombs. 

 

You also need lots trigger time, it's important that you can get to the point you can shoot accurately in your sleep.  Not much point in fancy maneuvering if you can't connect in the end.  Spend hours shooting unarmed C-47's and other easy targets from all angles and speeds.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Lots of good advice. I used to fly online quite a bit but have not in years. I fully expect, when I do, to get my ass handed to me and I was in general a pretty good pilot.

 

IMHO the 109 is great in absolute and relative terms until you get to the G6 at which point it needs thoughtful flying. The K4 resets things somewhat (though I don’t like it) and am not sure about G10 and G14.

 

One useful general lesson from your experience is an understanding as to why so many thousands of fighter pilots died in their first few missions.

[ShamrockOneFive]

23 hours ago, Lens7 said:

• try a dive upon an enemy (though a good 50% of the time the enemy is either already at a higher altitude and they're diving upon me before I can even make my climb or hugging the deck so much any attempt at climbing makes them borderline invisible, but I'm ignoring those for now)
• The enemy either:
  -Turns and manages to get a head on shot off
  -Merely does a vertical merge, and then sets himself up on my six if I extend or climb, with predictable results
  -Dodges right out of the way
• At which point either I climb away and either get shot by a bandit who wasn't on my tail when I checked right before the attack or the target himself turns well away and is nowhere to be seen if I make a second dive afterwards (if not outright on my six)
• Pressing the attack and ending up in a turning fight where I end up losing eventually.
• Somehow not getting shot during either of these and then it's either a Fw I misidentified as a Yak, or a teammate takes my target out in a single perfect burst I have yet to pull off seconds before I can get my sights on him.

 

This sounds like the core of the issues and they aren't really aircraft specific.

 

Let's talk about the Bf109 for a second because generally speaking yes it is a good aircraft to start with. Most versions are as fast as or faster than the opposition, typically climb better, and generally have handling that allows for mistakes and mishandling and still lets you get away with it at least half the time. That all together with an aircraft that has a fair bit of automation built in make for an easier aircraft to manage than something like a Spitfire which is generally comparable to Bf109 models but has a little less automation and slightly quirkier handling.

 

The rest seems to be a mix of issues with air combat maneuvering and situational awareness. This stuff is hard to maintain much less master so don't go hard on yourself. Learning here will usually mean quite a bit of defeat, especially against human piloted aircraft.

 

If you're diving on the enemy and they are capable of turning to get a head on shot then you've initiated the dive too soon letting them defensively maneuver. A more vertical approach is required. If they maneuver for a head on shot you do not meet them, you reposition. If they dodge out of the way, you reposition. You're always fighting to maintain energy advantage which you should have if you're above them. Forcing them to defend depletes their energy and you repositioning for the next attack lets you maintain and build advantage. Slow them down while staying faster and higher. They will be working to do the opposite. It's a game of chess really with moves and counter moves. If you're all in on the first move that can often invite defeat.

 

If you get shot by a bandit that you didn't see, that's an issue of situational awareness. Even while attacking one target, you do need to try and keep an eye out for other potential attackers. If you have the time to position for attack you can generally scan and get a sense of what's around you. This is not an easy thing and its why having a wingman to look out for you is such a successful scheme in aerial combat. Absent a wingman, you have to be twice as aware and choose not to attack and be in a vulnerable spot to other fighters if you spot them.

 

The Bf109 can win turning battles against some opponents but usually it has to do them quickly. The longer the turn fight, the more likely you are to lose in the 109. It may be the preferred selection for many newer players but its not a wonder weapon either. If you're getting dragged into a turn fight, the 109 does usually have the ability to disengage if you're not too deep into it. Use that superior power to weight ratio and get out, build speed, then distance and then altitude.

[Lens7]

3 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

But its up to you, and whether you want to prioritize early success, or to embrace the pain train and learn faster. 

I don't know about you, but so far it's been some 60 hours of pain train with very little learning, I doubt any more pain train will actually help over making *any* headway for once. 

27 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

1. > If you're diving on the enemy and they are capable of turning to get a head on shot then you've initiated the dive too soon letting them defensively maneuver. A more vertical approach is required. If they maneuver for a head on shot you do not meet them, you reposition. If they dodge out of the way, you reposition. You're always fighting to maintain energy advantage which you should have if you're above them. Forcing them to defend depletes their energy and you repositioning for the next attack lets you maintain and build advantage. Slow them down while staying faster and higher. They will be working to do the opposite. It's a game of chess really with moves and counter moves. If you're all in on the first move that can often invite defeat.

 

2. > If you get shot by a bandit that you didn't see, that's an issue of situational awareness. Even while attacking one target, you do need to try and keep an eye out for other potential attackers. If you have the time to position for attack you can generally scan and get a sense of what's around you.

 

3. > The Bf109 can win turning battles against some opponents but usually it has to do them quickly. The longer the turn fight, the more likely you are to lose in the 109. It may be the preferred selection for many newer players but its not a wonder weapon either. If you're getting dragged into a turn fight, the 109 does usually have the ability to disengage if you're not too deep into it. Use that superior power to weight ratio and get out, build speed, then distance and then altitude.

1. I've tried more vertical approaches and all it does is either I end up right in front of his guns and end up being on the receiving end of a pilot heart attack (because he seems to just die without so much as hearing a shot) or behind him with a massive loss of controllability due to the dive. Decide to extend, reposition and dive again? He's already gone. Check your six for a bad guy before climbing and upon diving? It's clear, until immediately after you're ready for your second dive. And the only sign is that of tracers inside your cockpit because you sure as hell still can't see him. And any sort of dodge clearly does not seem to affect their energy state, especially since they can follow me just fine afterwards, if not outright shoot me.

 

2. I have been doing exactly that. Doesn't stop the pilot heart attack shots. Or they'll show up in the immediate 10 seconds after I just checked my six.

 

3. I've tried disengaging by turning away and then climbing. 3 guesses as to what happens once the 'dedicated fodder' player does that.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Maybe the 109 doesn't suit you for whatever reason. I don't like 'em much.

 

Have you tried a 190 ?

Fully auto if you want it to be, great cockpit layout, very twitchy roll making it responsive.

Good ground attacker.

Keep it fast and straight, and you should be ok most of the time.

 

S!

[JG4_Deciman]

Just the 'basics'

 

The 109 (and also the 190) are NOT made for turnfighting.

In case you wanto do a turnfight the hurricane or spitfire are bettter.

 

BUT:

 

In neither the 109 nor the 190 you have to think about mixture.

You also don't have to think about prop pitch (but you can do manually)

And in the later versions of the 109 you don't even have to think about cooler settings (you could do that manually)

 

So for simply 'flying' it's a really good plane (when you managed to get comfortable with the behaviour on takeoff and landing).

But you have to keep in mind what it is supposed to do... and that ist NOT turnfighting...

 

Deci

 

Edited August 9, 2024 by JG4_Deciman

[HazMatt]

47 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Couple comments here to add a different view to the discussion. (this is of course only my opinion based on my experiences over the years in different sims)

That said I've not yet been playing Il2 for a year yet, so keep that in mind.

 

Let's talk about the Bf109 for a second because generally speaking yes it is a good aircraft to start with. Most versions are as fast as or faster than the opposition, typically climb better, and generally have handling that allows for mistakes and mishandling and still lets you get away with it at least half the time. That all together with an aircraft that has a fair bit of automation built in make for an easier aircraft to manage than something like a Spitfire which is generally comparable to Bf109 models but has a little less automation and slightly quirkier handling. The engine automation is helpful but if I recall correctly other then the G2 you can burn up the engine pretty quick running it wide open. (It seems the spitfire is more forgiving here and seems to have a slight performance edge in turning) I would try both and see what YOU like.

 

The rest seems to be a mix of issues with air combat maneuvering and situational awareness. This stuff is hard to maintain much less master so don't go hard on yourself. Learning here will usually mean quite a bit of defeat, especially against human piloted aircraft. Agreed. After more then 20 years of online sims I still get bounced more then I'd like to admit. Usually it's when I'm typing or navigating. The best advise I can give for this is to try to never fly straight and level when you suspect an enemy might be near. I'm always doing s type turns to check my 6 and to try to throw off an enemy that may be trying to bounce me.

 

If you're diving on the enemy and they are capable of turning to get a head on shot then you've initiated the dive too soon letting them defensively maneuver. A more vertical approach is required. If they maneuver for a head on shot you do not meet them, you reposition. If they dodge out of the way, you reposition. You're always fighting to maintain energy advantage which you should have if you're above them. Forcing them to defend depletes their energy and you repositioning for the next attack lets you maintain and build advantage. Slow them down while staying faster and higher. They will be working to do the opposite. It's a game of chess really with moves and counter moves. If you're all in on the first move that can often invite defeat. I always keep my energy state high enough to meet an enemy head on. If I have an enemy above me that is going to dive on me, I get my airspeed up enough that I can reverse 180 as soon as I see him start his attack. Sometimes it is no possible if you are low and slow but if you have enough speed to be at corner you can usually get the nose around to meet him. If you do not have the e to get the nose around, you can usually split-s to throw off his attack if he is closing quickly. Another move that I use if I'm low and slow  is to start a gentle turn as he closes and start to tighten it up as he gets closer. Right as he approaches gun range (when I suspect he has pulled lead to shoot) I roll a few more degrees and pull max. (this usually blows his shot) I then quickly reverse and pull hard back in the opposite direction. I usually at least get a snapshot as he zips by. (these moves are very dependent on timing and judging E state)

 

If you get shot by a bandit that you didn't see, that's an issue of situational awareness. Even while attacking one target, you do need to try and keep an eye out for other potential attackers. If you have the time to position for attack you can generally scan and get a sense of what's around you. This is not an easy thing and its why having a wingman to look out for you is such a successful scheme in aerial combat. Absent a wingman, you have to be twice as aware and choose not to attack and be in a vulnerable spot to other fighters if you spot them. I agree with this 100%. I've read that one of the main reasons the Germans were so successful before the were massively outnumber and pilot training was lacking due to fuel shortage/attrition was said to be from the 4 plane tactics they had developed.

 

The Bf109 can win turning battles against some opponents but usually it has to do them quickly. The longer the turn fight, the more likely you are to lose in the 109. It may be the preferred selection for many newer players but its not a wonder weapon either. If you're getting dragged into a turn fight, the 109 does usually have the ability to disengage if you're not too deep into it. Use that superior power to weight ratio and get out, build speed, then distance and then altitude.

My experience here is different based on the plane I'm fighting. (this is based on the F2-G6 serious which is what I fly mostly)

I agree that against a spitfire flown by a competent pilot that you will most likely lose angles over time.

I've found for example that the longer I fight a P-51 or a Tempest, that the better my position comes, especially if he his flat turning and/or we get slow.

First going full throttle in a high yo-yo, followed by a throttle chop and a low yo-yo and repeat and after a few turns I start to gain angles.

 

[HazMatt]

58 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

I don't know about you, but so far it's been some 60 hours of pain train with very little learning, I doubt any more pain train will actually help over making *any* headway for once. 

1. I've tried more vertical approaches and all it does is either I end up right in front of his guns and end up being on the receiving end of a pilot heart attack (because he seems to just die without so much as hearing a shot) or behind him with a massive loss of controllability due to the dive. Decide to extend, reposition and dive again? He's already gone. Check your six for a bad guy before climbing and upon diving? It's clear, until immediately after you're ready for your second dive. And the only sign is that of tracers inside your cockpit because you sure as hell still can't see him. And any sort of dodge clearly does not seem to affect their energy state, especially since they can follow me just fine afterwards, if not outright shoot me.

 

2. I have been doing exactly that. Doesn't stop the pilot heart attack shots. Or they'll show up in the immediate 10 seconds after I just checked my six.

 

3. I've tried disengaging by turning away and then climbing. 3 guesses as to what happens once the 'dedicated fodder' player does that.

The best advice I can give you on this is to fight another person and get pointers. I'm sure many would be willing to help you if you ask. If you see me online hit me up.

30 minutes ago, JG4_Deciman said:

Just the 'basics'

 

The 109 (and also the 190) are NOT made for turnfighting.

In case you wanto do a turnfight the hurricane or spitfire are bettter.

 

 

I would agree with this 90% of the time, however most do not expect you to turnfight  a 109 and I have killed many a spit buy surprising them doing just that. If I see a spit flat turning I will try to turnfight him using the vertical. Just the other day on the normal server I had a spit pilot comment that he wasn't used to people turnfighting a 109. I have found that I've had the greatest success doing this with the F4 and G2.

 

For the 190 (which I don't fly much) I've found rolling scissors to be effective, but to be good at it you need to be able to control the 190 at slow speeds.

Edited August 9, 2024 by HazMatt

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

54 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

I don't know about you, but so far it's been some 60 hours of pain train with very little learning, I doubt any more pain train will actually help over making *any* headway for once. 

Yeah, but you're fighting people who have been playing for decades, its a brutal learning curve and 60 hours isn't much in the big picture. I'm sure they all had the same frustrations when they started. Its important to keep reading stuff so you're not practicing blind. Fighter combat by Robert Shaw is really good for opening your eyes.

[ShamrockOneFive]

55 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

1. I've tried more vertical approaches and all it does is either I end up right in front of his guns and end up being on the receiving end of a pilot heart attack (because he seems to just die without so much as hearing a shot) or behind him with a massive loss of controllability due to the dive. Decide to extend, reposition and dive again? He's already gone. Check your six for a bad guy before climbing and upon diving? It's clear, until immediately after you're ready for your second dive. And the only sign is that of tracers inside your cockpit because you sure as hell still can't see him. And any sort of dodge clearly does not seem to affect their energy state, especially since they can follow me just fine afterwards, if not outright shoot me.

 

With a vertical attack there should be no possibility of them getting their guns on you. How is that happening?

 

On approach you should have the target beneath you (preferably). You spot them, you get to a position overhead, roll, position, fire, and pull away. The entire time I'm going to be looking at the targets rear hemisphere and preferably aiming for his wing roots and engine.

 

If they are getting away while you're repositioning then this goes into the situational awareness angle. You position for another follow up attack. You should have their position either in sight or in mind at all times.

59 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

2. I have been doing exactly that. Doesn't stop the pilot heart attack shots. Or they'll show up in the immediate 10 seconds after I just checked my six.

What's a heart attack shot? You mean you were unaware and surprised and they shot you? That is usually the kind of attack you want to initiate. Most of the time when I've been shot down online its because I didn't know they were there and that's how they got me.

 

1 hour ago, Lens7 said:

3. I've tried disengaging by turning away and then climbing. 3 guesses as to what happens once the 'dedicated fodder' player does that.

Unsucessfully getting away with a Bf109 usually means that the exit strategy may not be the best one. You may be trying to run away from a faster airplane or you may be giving up speed for height too soon.

 

1 hour ago, Lens7 said:

I don't know about you, but so far it's been some 60 hours of pain train with very little learning, I doubt any more pain train will actually help over making *any* headway for once. 

60 hours is not all that much relative to some of the folks you'll be facing online. I have many thousands of hours in WWII sims over the last 20+ years. I'm a bit afraid to do an actual tally You may just need to spend more time before you get into the swing of things. The other possibility is that maybe the fighter pilot style isn't for you... its not for everyone and personally my recent flying has all been in other roles. I got tired of fighter versus fighter and find planning and executing ground attack, level bombing, and utility flights like paradrops more interesting and engaging. Maybe one of these other roles better suits the kind of flying that you'd enjoy.

[JG4_Deciman]

17 minutes ago, HazMatt said:

I would agree with this 90% of the time, however most do not expect you to turnfight  a 109 and I have killed many a spit buy surprising them doing just that. If I see a spit flat turning I will try to turnfight him using the vertical.

 

I guess 'using the vertivcal' means use of 'high jojo', so no turnfight in the same horizontal range.
That would mean 'energy' fighting by converting speed to energy (climbing), using the roll rate ans the 'low energy beleeding state' when at lower speed for the turn and afterwards change altitude (stored energy) to speed when diving on the enemy...

Am I right?

 

Deci

[HazMatt]

12 minutes ago, JG4_Deciman said:

I guess 'using the vertivcal' means use of 'high jojo', so no turnfight in the same horizontal range.
That would mean 'energy' fighting by converting speed to energy (climbing), using the roll rate ans the 'low energy beleeding state' when at lower speed for the turn and afterwards change altitude (stored energy) to speed when diving on the enemy...

Am I right?

 

Deci

You are right. I didn't want to use the term "energy fighting" because many people think of it as boom and zoom tactics.

 

From a distance if you were to watch the fight from a distance I think it would look like I was "turning" with the spit other then the variations in altitude from the yo-yos I'm guessing.

Edited August 9, 2024 by HazMatt

[Lens7]

1 hour ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Maybe the 109 doesn't suit you for whatever reason. I don't like 'em much.

 

Have you tried a 190 ?

Fully auto if you want it to be, great cockpit layout, very twitchy roll making it responsive.

Good ground attacker.

Keep it fast and straight, and you should be ok most of the time.

 

S!

I haven't and honestly, I'm not sure if I want to. Even if I've spent however much time I did, I admittedly didn't enjoy enough of it to consider paying up for more, especially on the off chance that it turns out that no, the 190 is not enough to make up for my natural ineptitude that can make even the best of planes stumble and fall out of the sky it seems.

20 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Yeah, but you're fighting people who have been playing for decades, its a brutal learning curve and 60 hours isn't much in the big picture. I'm sure they all had the same frustrations when they started. Its important to keep reading stuff so you're not practicing blind. Fighter combat by Robert Shaw is really good for opening your eyes.

I know it's not a good lot, but there's a matter of actually enjoying the process. Blame it on my age, but I don't think I'm willing to undergo hundreds of hours of being fodder and enjoying not one second of it on the hopes that maybe I'll get to a passable level by the thousandth hour. As for Fighter Combat, I've been reading that, it clearly doesn't seem to have helped me.  

16 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

With a vertical attack there should be no possibility of them getting their guns on you. How is that happening?

 

On approach you should have the target beneath you (preferably). You spot them, you get to a position overhead, roll, position, fire, and pull away. The entire time I'm going to be looking at the targets rear hemisphere and preferably aiming for his wing roots and engine.

 

If they are getting away while you're repositioning then this goes into the situational awareness angle. You position for another follow up attack. You should have their position either in sight or in mind at all times.

What's a heart attack shot? You mean you were unaware and surprised and they shot you? That is usually the kind of attack you want to initiate. Most of the time when I've been shot down online its because I didn't know they were there and that's how they got me.

 

Unsucessfully getting away with a Bf109 usually means that the exit strategy may not be the best one. You may be trying to run away from a faster airplane or you may be giving up speed for height too soon.

 

60 hours is not all that much relative to some of the folks you'll be facing online. I have many thousands of hours in WWII sims over the last 20+ years. I'm a bit afraid to do an actual tally You may just need to spend more time before you get into the swing of things. The other possibility is that maybe the fighter pilot style isn't for you... its not for everyone and personally my recent flying has all been in other roles. I got tired of fighter versus fighter and find planning and executing ground attack, level bombing, and utility flights like paradrops more interesting and engaging. Maybe one of these other roles better suits the kind of flying that you'd enjoy.

It's not so much as them getting their guns on me during the dive as much as them dodging out of the way and then getting guns on me after my attack inevitably fails, either because I either misjudged it, missed, or LOS changed too fast and then I have to either pull out of the dive to not crash, or when I reposition.

By heart attack shot I mean I don't even so much as hear the bullets hitting the plane, it's that I'll be flying, there's not a bandit in sight and then suddenly I'm hit with the message of being killed with zero warning. So if anything, this is even more sudden than a heart attack. At least a heart attack takes a good couple of minutes even in the worst of cases. 

As far as I'm aware, there's not much faster than a 109 in 1942 that's trying to intentionally kill the 109. Either that or again, I appear to be impressively bad. 

 

As for maybe trying the ground attack, while I seem to be less comedically bad at it in a Stuka, being perpetually at the mercy of even an I-16 isn't really something I look forward to. Which is why I was initially thinking of maybe transitioning into a fighter-bomber, but I clearly am terrible at the fighter part.

[ShamrockOneFive]

18 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

It's not so much as them getting their guns on me during the dive as much as them dodging out of the way and then getting guns on me after my attack inevitably fails, either because I either misjudged it, missed, or LOS changed too fast and then I have to either pull out of the dive to not crash, or when I reposition.

It sounds like you need to then focus on two elements here. First, figure out why your attack is failing. Is it a bad position to start? Is it not good enough gunnery? My goal is usually to hit with the first burst and if its not the first burst then its the second and that I will rarely fire a third burst because they everyone knows what you're doing.

 

The second is managing your aircraft so that you're back into a good offensive position again. Requiem's Energy Maneuverability video may help. His example with the P-38 showing what a Fw190D-9 is trying to do to him may be what you're doing and getting sucked into the attack and then ultimately placed on defensive. That Fw190 in the example should have broken off after the first two bursts and positioned for a new attack rather than committing.

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

As for maybe trying the ground attack, while I seem to be less comedically bad at it in a Stuka, being perpetually at the mercy of even an I-16 isn't really something I look forward to. Which is why I was initially thinking of maybe transitioning into a fighter-bomber, but I clearly am terrible at the fighter part.

There are other aircraft in the series outside of the Stuka which is generally slow and a pretty easy target. If its the Axis side then you've got a bunch of strike aircraft available including the Bf110E-2 and G-2, the Fw190 series (many of which have fighter-bomber specific modifications), the Me410 and even the Bf109 which some were operated in fighter-bomber specific squadrons. In any case, part of the planning is to minimize interception potential and/or work with friendly fighters to provide a screen.

 

The other day I was on Combat Box flying a Me410 with a friend of mine. We let the team know what target we were after, a couple of fighters flew a patrol in the area keeping some of their attackers busy, we flew flak suppression and attacked anything firing up, and then three Ju88s bombed the heck out of the target. There were losses to a fighter that got through but most of the force returned to base. It wasn't entirely planned but these do happen when you connect with your team. Other times I've been bounced by three or four Spitfires while flying solo. I didn't make it back but I took two Spitfires with me and I hit the target. I feel like that was pretty good!

 

The Allied side have a great selection of attackers too including the series title aircraft.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

2 hours ago, Lens7 said:

I know it's not a good lot, but there's a matter of actually enjoying the process. Blame it on my age, but I don't think I'm willing to undergo hundreds of hours of being fodder and enjoying not one second of it on the hopes that maybe I'll get to a passable level by the thousandth hour. As for Fighter Combat, I've been reading that, it clearly doesn't seem to have helped me.

The motivation has to be there or its not happening. I was trying to say to have a no pain no gain mentality, but if the whole thing just starts looking like a male only BDSM club masquerading as a plane game, then its time to take a break, or try something different. But a clean fighter is as painless as it gets, choosing ground attack is like exiting the pain train and entering the pain Olympics.

[HazMatt]

I prefer the knife fight in a phone booth. I will engage even if the odds are stacked against me because I get unlimited planes and lives and to me flying to "live" is boring.

I fly as Galland said in these quotes

*Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.

*Never abandon the possibility of attack. Attack even from a position of inferiority, to disrupt the enemy's plans. This often results in improving one's own position

 

 

If you are looking to survive you may wish work on B&Z tactics and to consider some of these quotes from the most successful fighter pilot of all time:

 

*See, decide, attack, reverse. (some say the OODA loop is based on this)

 

*Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy once they had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault. I always began my attacks from full strength, if possible, my ideal flying height being 22,000 ft because at that altitude I could best utilize the performance of my aircraft. Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering.

 

*In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

 

Things are hard to translate from text here to the game as much of the moves are based on timing as much as or even more then the move itself. The thing that help me the most when I first started was to film every sortie and watch what the enemy did and figure what I could have done better.

 

That said we've come a long way from AirWarrior DOS that I started flying in during the 90ies when I was part of a carrier air wing :)

 

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

You're not very good and I don't mean this as an insult--we all have to start somewhere.

 

With the 109, you really have to learn how to use its strengths:

 

-speed (especially pre-1944)

-climb rate

-low speed handling and turn performance (with flaps)

-armament (a few hits with those cannons and most fighters are going in)

-energy retention

-power/weight ratio (great for high yo-yo)

-dive speed (to disengage)

 

You have to avoid its weaknesses (like every other plane):

-dive performance when on the offensive (no control authority due to compressibility)

-armor and general airframe weakness (a few hits and you're usually snapping a wing)

-straightline speed at low altitude

-high-speed turn/roll rate

-rearward visibility, especially low six

 

Contrary to popular opinion, I find it much better and more survivable to fly around and keep up speed on the deck in multiplayer as you can use stealth due to being hard to spot. At a good speed that isn't dive speed, you also maximize turn performance without blacking out, ripping wings, or facing heavy stick forces. But you have to train these things to be intuitive second-nature...if you think in a fight, you're already dead. That's why the Berloga suggestion is a good one ^^^

 

Just my two cents as an above average longtime MP pilot...see here: 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR

[Lens7]

14 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

The motivation has to be there or its not happening. I was trying to say to have a no pain no gain mentality, but if the whole thing just starts looking like a male only BDSM club masquerading as a plane game, then its time to take a break, or try something different. But a clean fighter is as painless as it gets, choosing ground attack is like exiting the pain train and entering the pain Olympics.

Good to know the one thing I seem to not comedically suck at is going to be even worse! Especially if I'm getting whipped like a masochist in the most 'painless' approach.  

14 hours ago, HazMatt said:

 

*Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.

 

Maybe if you're Galland. If you're me a spirit of attack is how you get chewed up and spat out to the tune of 'you suck', 'duel yak' or a distinctive refusal to actually help if someone asks for it.

 

*Never abandon the possibility of attack. Attack even from a position of inferiority, to disrupt the enemy's plans. This often results in improving one's own position.

 

Tried, not only did I fail but very clearly was told this was gonna fail.

 

14 hours ago, HazMatt said:

 

If you are looking to survive you may wish work on B&Z tactics and to consider some of these quotes from the most successful fighter pilot of all time:

 

*Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy once they had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault. I always began my attacks from full strength, if possible, my ideal flying height being 22,000 ft because at that altitude I could best utilize the performance of my aircraft. Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering.

 

*In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

 

Ah yes. The rough maneuver which succeeds. Maybe again if you're a damn good pilot. I try a rough maneuver at any speed I'll be stalling or spinning (and getting shot because the enemy is omniscient and immediately knows the moment I begin making a mistake. Hell I so much as try a 'gentle' maneuver to try and pull lead I start stalling even around 300 km/h. 

 

All I know is that for that for all I know that even after 70+ hours I'm not so much as making a modicum of progress, and I've not yet reached a point where I'll slog through several hundred hours of constant failure on the off chance that maybe I'll get good at some point. (Though it very much seems I will not if no

If I wanted to do that while also being taunted in Russian or broken English while hating every moment of that, I'd've gotten into DOTA 2 instead. 

Either way, I'm dropping this damn game. If only I'd known I'd do this however many hours before, at least I could've gotten a refund. I'm no stranger to games with a steep learning curve or flight sims, but at least there's supposed to be an illusion of progress after dedicating 3 full days' equivalent to it. Instead the only illusion was that maybe I could learn.

[the_emperor]

56 minutes ago, Lens7 said:

All I know is that for that for all I know that even after 70+ hours I'm not so much as making a modicum of progress, and I've not yet reached a point where I'll slog through several hundred hours of constant failure on the off chance that maybe I'll get good at some point. (Though it very much seems I will not if no

If I wanted to do that while also being taunted in Russian or broken English while hating every moment of that, I'd've gotten into DOTA 2 instead. 

Either way, I'm dropping this damn game. If only I'd known I'd do this however many hours before, at least I could've gotten a refund. I'm no stranger to games with a steep learning curve or flight sims, but at least there's supposed to be an illusion of progress after dedicating 3 full days' equivalent to it. Instead the only illusion was that maybe I could learn.

 

Dont forget in MP you usually encounter player with  hundres and thousands of hours of experience, often with some serious hardware rig that gives some a huge advantage in terms of situational awareness.

and they know where to "exploit" the game in terms of flight model/physic.

 

[dgiatr]

29 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

 

Dont forget in MP you usually encounter player with  hundres and thousands of hours of experience, often with some serious hardware rig that gives some a huge advantage in terms of situational awareness.

and they know where to "exploit" the game in terms of flight model/physic.

 

Dont be disappointed if you get bounced in Berloga..many players there use external views...only in Finnish or Wings of Liberty or Combat Box you can judge...

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

3 hours ago, Lens7 said:

Good to know the one thing I seem to not comedically suck at is going to be even worse! Especially if I'm getting whipped like a masochist in the most 'painless' approach.  

 

At least I'm honest <3.

 

3 hours ago, Lens7 said:

All I know is that for that for all I know that even after 70+ hours I'm not so much as making a modicum of progress, and I've not yet reached a point where I'll slog through several hundred hours of constant failure on the off chance that maybe I'll get good at some point. (Though it very much seems I will not if no

If I wanted to do that while also being taunted in Russian or broken English while hating every moment of that, I'd've gotten into DOTA 2 instead. 

Either way, I'm dropping this damn game. If only I'd known I'd do this however many hours before, at least I could've gotten a refund. I'm no stranger to games with a steep learning curve or flight sims, but at least there's supposed to be an illusion of progress after dedicating 3 full days' equivalent to it. Instead the only illusion was that maybe I could learn.

 

You won't maybe get better, you will get better, but it will take time, and there will be pain, lots and lots of pain. As the other 2 above mentioned it's not a sporting place, and this is the internet so you always have to expect a douchebag buffet, but it does serve it's purpose as a good pain train playground for learning. I should have mentioned try to learn from the GOOD people you find, not the cheesers. If you spend all your time learning the cheesy stuff instead of the real stuff, then what do you do when the cheese gets taken away, like it potentially could be taken away in Korea?

[BlitzPig_EL]

70 hours is nothing.  That's about like the seat times that the young pilots the Luftwaffe sent up at the end of the war against seasoned, well equipped Allied air forces, and that were cut down like sitting ducks.  This is a simulation not a first person shooter game that is designed to ease you into thinking you are the master of the universe and hand you cheap kills to stimulate your pleasure center.

 

So, you have a choice, stick with it, learn from your mistakes, and get better over the long run, or dump it and find an easier way to pad your self esteem.  It's all up to you.

 

[Lens7]

1 hour ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

As the other 2 above mentioned it's not a sporting place, and this is the internet so you always have to expect a douchebag buffet, but it does serve it's purpose as a good pain train playground for learning. I should have mentioned try to learn from the GOOD people you find, not the cheesers. If you spend all your time learning the cheesy stuff instead of the real stuff, then what do you do when the cheese gets taken away, like it potentially could be taken away in Korea?

I love your optimism in assuming I'm actually going to get Korea. If I was going to do that I'd've at least bought something else in the Great Battles series first. 

34 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

70 hours is nothing.  That's about like the seat times that the young pilots the Luftwaffe sent up at the end of the war against seasoned, well equipped Allied air forces, and that were cut down like sitting ducks.  This is a simulation not a first person shooter game that is designed to ease you into thinking you are the master of the universe and hand you cheap kills to stimulate your pleasure center.

 

So, you have a choice, stick with it, learn from your mistakes, and get better over the long run, or dump it and find an easier way to pad your self esteem.  It's all up to you.

 

I take it this is under the assumption the 100 hours I have before on Falcon BMS apparently don't matter?
I know this is no cheap FPS where you run around and can just unload in full auto for constant dopamine shots. 

I've been willing to learn and practice, which is why I was willing to put in those 70 hours in the first place rather than get a refund like so many others have on the steam store. But there's a difference between a difficult learning curve where you get better over hundreds if not thousands of hours and spending 3 days' equivalent of your life and only coming to the understanding of how someone can play a game for ages on end while hating nearly every moment of it and realizing the only time you enjoyed was flying ground attack in WoL on off hours.  

The difference between pain and suffering is that suffering is pain without meaning. I wouldn't be complaining of getting my ass handed to me if even a quarter, nay, a tenth of those deaths were a learning opportunity. All I know is I'm getting jumped without understanding jack squat other than 'german planes are (apparently) overpowered in 1942'. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Don't you get a kick out of simply doing free flight and aerobatics?  The sim at least does these things remarkably well, they're a joy, and simply doing these things and pushing to see what you can get out of a few select aircraft that seem to fit your needs well will go a long way bringing the rest about. 

 

Any metric you measure against the AI is mute, they're not even comparable to what you see against humans and teach a lot of bad things, they're for gunnery practice only.  Aerobatics and gunnery for relaxation and training, building hours doing those long term lead to success.  It's obvious your not into single play and campaigns nor watching paint dry on walls. 

 

But what you need most is a gang to hang with that knows the ropes and knows how to have fun, take a beating and administer one too on those most special occasions.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

2 hours ago, Lens7 said:

I take it this is under the assumption the 100 hours I have before on Falcon BMS apparently don't matter?

 

It really doesn't, modern jets don't prepare you very well for WWII.

 

2 hours ago, Lens7 said:

I know this is no cheap FPS where you run around and can just unload in full auto for constant dopamine shots. 

I've been willing to learn and practice, which is why I was willing to put in those 70 hours in the first place rather than get a refund like so many others have on the steam store. But there's a difference between a difficult learning curve where you get better over hundreds if not thousands of hours and spending 3 days' equivalent of your life and only coming to the understanding of how someone can play a game for ages on end while hating nearly every moment of it and realizing the only time you enjoyed was flying ground attack in WoL on off hours.  

The difference between pain and suffering is that suffering is pain without meaning. I wouldn't be complaining of getting my ass handed to me if even a quarter, nay, a tenth of those deaths were a learning opportunity. All I know is I'm getting jumped without understanding jack squat other than 'german planes are (apparently) overpowered in 1942'. 

 

The German planes in 42 are only overpowered when you're flying them in space in a BnZ or energy fighting way. If you're dog fighting down low like I'm assuming you're doing in Berloga, then the German planes aren't OP down low dog fighters vs the red stuff. If you're dogfighting you might have better luck in the earlier 109s like the F2 or E7.

 

It's up to you, but there's three choices:

 

1. Embrace the pain train and git gudder. 

2. Cheat/cheese (a popular choice)

3. Do something else. There is single player and I think there are PVE servers as an option, but I don't know what the population there is like.

 

 

[Lens7]

48 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Don't you get a kick out of simply doing free flight and aerobatics?  The sim at least does these things remarkably well, they're a joy, and simply doing these things and pushing to see what you can get out of a few select aircraft that seem to fit your needs well will go a long way bringing the rest about. 

 

Any metric you measure against the AI is mute, they're not even comparable to what you see against humans and teach a lot of bad things, they're for gunnery practice only.  Aerobatics and gunnery for relaxation and training, building hours doing those long term lead to success.  It's obvious your not into single play and campaigns nor watching paint dry on walls. 

 

But what you need most is a gang to hang with that knows the ropes and knows how to have fun, take a beating and administer one too on those most special occasions.

If I was going to just go for aerobatics and flying for the sake of it, I already have a sim and a plane that I can fly without the tech tips yelling at me every other minute I fly in anything but a straight line. If anything my first thought was how much better the F-16 felt to fly compared to these warbirds, especially since they clearly are nowhere near as maneuverable as historical impression would have me believe.

 

That point about the AI is in fact why I specifically haven't dumped as much time into singleplayer because clearly it doesn't help because its all AI. As for the campaigns, iirc those usually come as a separate payment, which I haven't considered considering 70 hours have made me question whether its worth it.

 

As for finding a gang, good luck to me because I know exactly one person who's into this who I communicate with. That person is me.
 

  

16 minutes ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

The German planes in 42 are only overpowered when you're flying them in space in a BnZ or energy fighting way. If you're dog fighting down low like I'm assuming you're doing in Berloga, then the German planes aren't OP down low dog fighters vs the red stuff. If you're dogfighting you might have better luck in the earlier 109s like the F2 or E7.

 

It's up to you, but there's three choices:

 

1. Embrace the pain train and git gudder. 

2. Cheat/cheese (a popular choice)

3. Do something else. There is single player and I think there are PVE servers as an option, but I don't know what the population there is like.

 

 

What even is counted in cheesing? 

Also it clearly seems a red turn fighter doesn't seem to help me in Berloga either. So at this point it seems I very profoundly seem to fail to bring BnZ into practice despite all the guides I've gone over. Both reading and watching. Again, yes. Long path to learning. I'd still like to feel some semblance of progress. That I come off of 70+ hours feeling I've learned something. Anything. That isn't just "I could've maybe done something else with this time, even if it wasn't cheap joy, it might've at least felt more worthwhile."

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Lens7

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1 hour ago, Lens7 said:

What even is counted in cheesing? 

Very subjective, but just exploiting things that should be fixed/blocked, but aren't.

 

1 hour ago, Lens7 said:

Also it clearly seems a red turn fighter doesn't seem to help me in Berloga either. So at this point it seems I very profoundly seem to fail to bring BnZ into practice despite all the guides I've gone over. Both reading and watching. Again, yes. Long path to learning. I'd still like to feel some semblance of progress. That I come off of 70+ hours feeling I've learned something. Anything. That isn't just "I could've maybe done something else with this time, even if it wasn't cheap joy, it might've at least felt more worthwhile."

70+ is a lot compared to other games, but this isn't your typical game. Don't be discouraged, 70 hours is a blink of an eye in IL2. 

[HazMatt]

14 hours ago, 356thFS_Drewm3i-VR said:

You're not very good and I don't mean this as an insult--we all have to start somewhere.

 

With the 109, you really have to learn how to use its strengths:

 

-speed (especially pre-1944)

-climb rate

-low speed handling and turn performance (with flaps)

-armament (a few hits with those cannons and most fighters are going in)

-energy retention

-power/weight ratio (great for high yo-yo)

-dive speed (to disengage)

 

You have to avoid its weaknesses (like every other plane):

-dive performance when on the offensive (no control authority due to compressibility)

-armor and general airframe weakness (a few hits and you're usually snapping a wing)

-straightline speed at low altitude

-high-speed turn/roll rate

-rearward visibility, especially low six

 

Contrary to popular opinion, I find it much better and more survivable to fly around and keep up speed on the deck in multiplayer as you can use stealth due to being hard to spot. At a good speed that isn't dive speed, you also maximize turn performance without blacking out, ripping wings, or facing heavy stick forces. But you have to train these things to be intuitive second-nature...if you think in a fight, you're already dead. That's why the Berloga suggestion is a good one ^^^

 

Just my two cents as an above average longtime MP pilot...see here: 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is good advice here.

 

I too fly around on the deck. I tend to fight the 109 nose high at low speed using lots of rudder. I have many times hung it on its prop and when the plane that was following ran out of energy, kicked the rudder and came down on top of them. I've also intentionally spun the 109 to ruin a gun solution as I can usually recover it quickly.

 

As it was said before, this takes a long time to be able to do well and if you misjudge the enemies energy state you can end up dead quickly. (which I still do right regularly)

[jollyjack]

Use custom Settings and all choices marked ON ...... LoL

Alter native: start with Flying Circus, or Rise of Flight (free!).... all happens at 1/3rd speed.

[HazMatt]

6 hours ago, Lens7 said:

Good to know the one thing I seem to not comedically suck at is going to be even worse! Especially if I'm getting whipped like a masochist in the most 'painless' approach.  

 

Ah yes. The rough maneuver which succeeds. Maybe again if you're a damn good pilot. I try a rough maneuver at any speed I'll be stalling or spinning (and getting shot because the enemy is omniscient and immediately knows the moment I begin making a mistake. Hell I so much as try a 'gentle' maneuver to try and pull lead I start stalling even around 300 km/h. 

 

All I know is that for that for all I know that even after 70+ hours I'm not so much as making a modicum of progress, and I've not yet reached a point where I'll slog through several hundred hours of constant failure on the off chance that maybe I'll get good at some point. (Though it very much seems I will not if no

If I wanted to do that while also being taunted in Russian or broken English while hating every moment of that, I'd've gotten into DOTA 2 instead. 

Either way, I'm dropping this damn game. If only I'd known I'd do this however many hours before, at least I could've gotten a refund. I'm no stranger to games with a steep learning curve or flight sims, but at least there's supposed to be an illusion of progress after dedicating 3 full days' equivalent to it. Instead the only illusion was that maybe I could learn.

Maybe give it a break and come back? If you want to set up a time when you're online I'd be happy to help you and I suspect there are others that would be willing to help you to.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear with what I said earlier. My idea was for you to get a fast plane, k4, 51, tempest (or whatever is a fast plane for the year modeled) and start off with making attacks like Hartman describes. Attack at full speed, if they evade extend and do not attempt to turn with them. Find another target, attack aft full speed and extend. Never let your airspeed low, never turn more then 45 degrees while attacking. I think if you do this that your survival rate will go way up. I find this rather boring but if you are trying to stay alive it works well.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

It's kind of amusing that a new pilot thinks he should be competitive or not die frequently online against the best virtual pilots, some of whom have decades of experience, and the best of which per the stats have played more online this month than he has in his whole life. 

[HazMatt]

I was thinking about something too that might help.

 

What is it the you want to get out of the game?

 

I for example will charge into a fight of 3 vs 1 and usually get killed. There was one time that I recall doing this on the deck in which I got 2 maneuver kills and shot the 3rd one down. I enjoy fighting like this as I find it very challenging. Needless to say I die most sorties but it doesn't bother me because I get unlimited life and planes in the dueling arenas pretty much. I usually fly on the normal server with the icons as all the other planes there are real players for the most part and it's easy mode with engine management and icons. It's pretty much just turn and burn.

 

Obviously if I'm playing on another server like combat box I change my tactics a bit as you have to be careful what you're shooting if there aren't any icons.

 

So the question for you is: What makes the game fun for you? If like me you like to turn and burn like me you're going to die and die often.

 

If you goal is to live, I think you might want to change up your tactics to B&Z as I mentioned earlier.

 

Another thing to consider is something I do from time to time on combat box and other servers when the numbers are low or I get in a mood.

I'll take a 190 with 3 250kg bombs. I fly in the cloud cover as much as I can until I get to the target. I make one pass coming in and drop my bombs, I make a strafing pass on the way out and I climb back up into the cloud cover to get back home. If I'm looking to get myself killed I'll hang around and strafe until enemy fighters show up in droves to shoot me down.

 

Heck I've even been known to drive around in tanks. I remember one time I was in a town and an enemy was there with a panther tank. I think I had a T34. We kept trying to ambush each other and finally I got him as he came around the corner of a building. Fun stuff!

 

The reason I'm writing this is I hate to see you go after such a short time when the game has so much to offer.