Brief Room Episode 5: Commander Career and Museum

[EAF19_Marsh]

I am sure that the team's heart is in the right place, but the commander / career thing strikes me as a something of a dead-end.

 

If it were possible to command and fly, I feel it is an interesting addition. Particularly nice with the possibility of starting at the top, or at the bottom, either allowing regimental command from the beginning or once sufficient promotion has been achieved.

 

But if the pilot / commander careers are divorced and not overlapping then I would recommend against this on the sheer opportunity cost and low return on investment from the latter:

- Flight simmers buy flight sims to fly

- Strategy gamers buy strategy games mostly to strategise

- Flight simmers will likely be less interested - if statistically at all - in the strategy element beyond a few times

- Strategy gamers will likely buy it at best in the hundreds, but likely in the tens. If at all.

 

If the player cannot manage and fly I see little interest, but rather falling between 2 camps. So time and energy focussed on command career or similar elements would likely be rather wasted. This would not be the first or likely last time an internal team idea failed when faced with actual consumer interest.

 

Can I strongly suggest a forum career priority poll along the lines of would you prefer:

- 1. Just Pilot and if the commander option cannot be combined with the commander role, then regretfully drop the latter to concentrate on a good and dynamic SP / MP for the former

- 2. Pilot career but also just Commander divorced from opportunity to fly

- 3. Ability to perform both either from career outset or on related promotion

 

My suspicion, for a project marketed at flight simmers, you will get a majority 3, with 1 then 2. Non-flying commander strikes me more as a 2026 DLC or similar.

 

Nothing personal, just my gut feeling.

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

If we did do a poll, then for one forum posters aren't necessarily representative of the entire player base at large, and two they're just a snapshot in time, and at the moment alot of people seem to be imagining it in the dullest way possible, as a bean counting side game divorced from gameplay, but I could imagine it in a much more interesting way if it can end up dynamically influencing the battlefield.

 

A dynamic front line isn't the only way to achieve dynamic gameplay. If our in flight actions can deny the enemy their favorite toys, and are necessary to keep our favorite toys in good supply and condition, then I think it could help players become more invested in the pixel war going on, and create interesting choices on where to prioritize our attacks and defenses. 

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

I am sure that the team's heart is in the right place, but the commander / career thing strikes me as a something of a dead-end.

 

If it were possible to command and fly, I feel it is an interesting addition. Particularly nice with the possibility of starting at the top, or at the bottom, either allowing regimental command from the beginning or once sufficient promotion has been achieved.

 

But if the pilot / commander careers are divorced and not overlapping then I would recommend against this on the sheer opportunity cost and low return on investment from the latter:

- Flight simmers buy flight sims to fly

- Strategy gamers buy strategy games mostly to strategise

- Flight simmers will likely be less interested - if statistically at all - in the strategy element beyond a few times

- Strategy gamers will likely buy it at best in the hundreds, but likely in the tens. If at all.

 

If the player cannot manage and fly I see little interest, but rather falling between 2 camps. So time and energy focussed on command career or similar elements would likely be rather wasted. This would not be the first or likely last time an internal team idea failed when faced with actual consumer interest.

 

Can I strongly suggest a forum career priority poll along the lines of would you prefer:

- 1. Just Pilot and if the commander option cannot be combined with the commander role, then regretfully drop the latter to concentrate on a good and dynamic SP / MP for the former

- 2. Pilot career but also just Commander divorced from opportunity to fly

- 3. Ability to perform both either from career outset or on related promotion

 

My suspicion, for a project marketed at flight simmers, you will get a majority 3, with 1 then 2. Non-flying commander strikes me more as a 2026 DLC or similar.

 

Nothing personal, just my gut feeling.

 

As I mentioned yesterday, the player will have the option to have the management side of career automated if they don't want to deal with that. 

[BladeMeister]

On 7/18/2024 at 1:45 AM, PretzelDarter said:

 

Is there just an English transcript of this video? I am interested, but tha AI translation irritated me so much that in 2 minutes I said F-this and turned it off. I would rather watch an hours worth of baby seal clubbing than sit through that. Career as a commander you say?

Yawn. Not me. No proper pilot career?

 

S!Blade<><

Edited July 19, 2024 by BladeMeister

[FuriousMeow]

The last time I invested much time in single player campaign/career was Red Baron II/3D's.

Between lackluster AI in every air combat game/sim and dull/not engaging campaign systems online wars have always been better for me. Interested to see how this pans out though. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

As I mentioned yesterday, the player will have the option to have the management side of career automated if they don't want to deal with that. 

Sure. But why separated? And, as I asked, why the aeparate dommander tion?

 

Think this one through, I really doubt many virtual pilots want to command a unit while being banned from flying. Vice versa, I doubt many would-be formation commanders want to play only a commander role game pay for the sim options that they will not use.

 

Sit down and draw some NOR gates. Commander mode unlinked to Pilot mode will be a colossal waste of time: estimate 1% playing time because this this is a Flight Sim and that's where the market and money lies.

 

Data > Facts > Theory > Action

 

Not

 

I had an idea > lets assume it works without asking our customers / stress-testing this > pour lots of energy into it > oh dear

 

Once again, the ‘unlocks’ spectre threatens: internal idew that - had someone though about it - actually makes little sense for 99% of core customer usage.

[LukeFF]

27 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Think this one through, I really doubt many virtual pilots want to command a unit while being banned from flying.

 

What makes you think you'll be banned from flying? The whole idea is to add depth to what goes on in between missions, not to keep you from flying. 

 

27 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Once again, the ‘unlocks’ spectre threatens

 

Nothing close to that sort of issue is even remotely possible here, for the very reason I gave above. If you want to just fly and not fiddle with anything else, you will have that option. But for those that want more than that, that option will be there as well. 

[Gambit21]

26 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Sure. But why separated? And, as I asked, why the aeparate dommander tion?

 

Think this one through, I really doubt many virtual pilots want to command a unit while being banned from flying. Vice versa, I doubt many would-be formation commanders want to play only a commander role game pay for the sim options that they will not use.

 

Sit down and draw some NOR gates. Commander mode unlinked to Pilot mode will be a colossal waste of time: estimate 1% playing time because this this is a Flight Sim and that's where the market and money lies.

 

Data > Facts > Theory > Action

 

Not

 

I had an idea > lets assume it works without asking our customers / stress-testing this > pour lots of energy into it > oh dear

 

Once again, the ‘unlocks’ spectre threatens: internal idew that - had someone though about it - actually makes little sense for 99% of core customer usage.

 

In the end I think that the massive improvements in the game engine (and the list is long and exciting) will trump the addition of this (what I predict will be widely ignored) functionality. I don’t think that between mission office/logistics was the way to go…at least if guys like you and me are the target audience. Clearly we are not…and they didn’t ask.

MiG 15 in this new engine will be amazing I think.  

 

Hey I owe you an email - will drop you a line later.

[LukeFF]

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

In the end I think that the massive improvements in the game engine (and the list is long and exciting) will trump the addition of this (what I predict will be widely ignored) functionality. I don’t think that between mission office/logistics was the way to go…at least if guys like you and me are the target audience. Clearly we are not…and they didn’t ask.

MiG 15 in this new engine will be amazing I think.  

 

Hey I owe you an email - will drop you a line later.

 

The actual management of one's squadron right now is pretty shallow overall - you can add and remove pilots from a mission and reshuffle the order in which they fly, and you can tweak their loadouts, but it doesn't really go much beyond that. No one has leadership skills, no one gets fatigued, etc. Planes as well are never down for repairs for more than a day. 

 

So, given all that, the planned changes will add a lot add more depth to what actually happens at a squadron/regiment between missions. But hey, as I have now said several times, if don't want to do that, you can just skip it. 🙂 Choice is good, and that's what we are giving players with this. 

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The actual management of one's squadron right now is pretty shallow overall - you can add and remove pilots from a mission and reshuffle the order in which they fly, and you can tweak their loadouts, but it doesn't really go much beyond that. No one has leadership skills, no one gets fatigued, etc. Planes as well are never down for repairs for more than a day. 

 

So, given all that, the planned changes will add a lot add more depth to what actually happens at a squadron/regiment between missions. But hey, as I have now said several times, if don't want to do that, you can just skip it. 🙂 Choice is good, and that's what we are giving players with this. 

I see - that helps - thank you.

I think tactical decisions (again as an option) would be welcome .

 

Patrol here vs there, hit that bridge ve recon that road etc etc. That’s something I would actually make use of. Roster/lineup as well so long as AI etc allows for reasonable survival likelyhood etc.

[EAF19_Marsh]

19 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

What makes you think you'll be banned from flying? The whole idea is to add depth to what goes on in between missions, not to keep you from flying. 

Hang on, was that not what was said?

- Pilot

- Commander

- NOT pilot AND commander

 

So, if I infer correctly the actual options are:

- Pilot with commander aspect on auto

- Commander but can select oneself for a given position / mission

 

Is that 2nd understanding what is intended in the release?

[LukeFF]

You will always be the commander but it will be your choice whether you want to manage the various details of your unit. 

[deathmisser]

13 hours ago, LF_Mark_Krieger said:

Agree. Officially they said they will release a minimum of 8 player controlled aircraft, half jet and half piston engine.
I don't know almost anything about Korea war, but doing some fast research I see there were much more types of american aircraft than NK/soviet ones. Could it be possible that in the release there are 5 american and 3 NK planes?
Also I think the La-11 is quite important and in the official website says this: 30.11.51 One of the biggest clashes between La-11s and F-86s during the war.

So, it seems quite probable that the La-11 is released since the beginning with the Yak 9P, IL-10 and Mig-15Bis. There are some more of 8 different aircraft that if not all of them 100% officially confirmed it is very probable that they will release sooner or later. 

What I am suposing now is the next (without knowing for sure if they will repeat the formula of premium version of the game and collector planes):

USA piston

F-51D-25 Mustang (confirmed)
F-4U Corsair    (confirmed. Probably at least two variants. 4E with radar)
USA jet
F9F-5 Panther (probable by deduction of name of plane in screenshots)
F-80C Shooting Star (almost sure by deduction of name and images of plane in screenshots)
F-86A Sabre (confirmed)
F-84E/G Thunderjet (confirmed)
 

B-29 Superfortress (AI)     (almost sure by deduction of images of plane in screenshots)

NK/RU/CH piston

Yak 9P (confirmed)
IL-10    (confirmed)
La-11   (probable in release by deduction of events anounced in the career)
NK/RU/CH jet
Mig-15Bis (confirmed)
 

Tu-2S (AI) (? Not so sure, but some "big" IA soviet aircraft would be necessary)

 

Finally a person wanting to discuss lol

 

"Officially they said they will release a minimum of 8 player controlled aircraft, half jet and half piston engine."

 

Really, now that is interesting I say 12 at least for the first release of the game sounds like a good number.

If they are still not happy about variants then there no harm releasing them later as collectors or even free like the recent Spit.

 

Also could you mind posting that part please as that could be a game changer on how we view the plane list for future releases.

[Trooper117]

10 hours ago, deathmisser said:

Also could you mind posting that part please as that could be a game changer on how we view the plane list for future releases.

 

To be honest, the plane list, or even future plane lists have absolutely nothing to do with us... we get what we get, don't we?

[EAF19_Marsh]

21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

You will always be the commander but it will be your choice whether you want to manage the various details of your unit. 

 

OK, thanks. I did not get that from the initial info so good to understand. I take it that the management depth and breadth remains a WiP?

 

And the F9F?

[deathmisser]

13 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

To be honest, the plane list, or even future plane lists have absolutely nothing to do with us... we get what we get, don't we?

M8 just give me a break, what's wrong with us speculating the arrive of the F9F ? 

 

We spot it in the video and we are commenting on it here appropriately, the plane list are from we understand are still in fluctuation.

For all we know the F9F could be there as a quick throw in if one isn't ready or even a later planned collector.  

 

We just don't know hence we are commenting about it here. 

[deathmisser]

 

But yea realistically IL-2 fashion and boringly this would props be the list.

 

Yak-9P     -  P-51
IL-10         -  F-4U
Mig-15A   -  F-86A
Mig-15Bis -  F-80C

 

B-29  (AI)
Tu-2S (AI)
 

Edited July 21, 2024 by deathmisser

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

OK, thanks. I did not get that from the initial info so good to understand. I take it that the management depth and breadth remains a WiP?

 

Yes, everything's still being worked on. 

 

4 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

And the F9F?

 

🤐

[CzechTexan]

ah, the F9F Panther.  When I was a kid I built a 1/72 model of that one.  Perhaps it'll become available when a carrier comes out.

[deathmisser]

10 hours ago, CzechTexan said:

ah, the F9F Panther.  When I was a kid I built a 1/72 model of that one.  Perhaps it'll become available when a carrier comes out.

Could be I mean if they are serious about going to the pacific next then they would need tests.

A 2nd Korea module with Carriers would make a really nice testing environment. 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, deathmisser said:

Could be I mean if they are serious about going to the pacific next then they would need tests.

A 2nd Korea module with Carriers would make a really nice testing environment. 

 

F9F and AD-2/4 Skyraider operated with the USMC off land-bases - so if any of them get included it doesn't necessarily mean carriers. If they announce the Sea Fury, Fairy Firefly or Seafire that would be a strong indication of carriers - but the F9F wouldn't be. So, even if the menu mock-up is accurate, it isn't evidence.

 

P.S. Yes, a sequel with South Korea and a couple of carriers would be pretty neat. They'd probably have to hold back on some Collector Planes and variants (e.g. F-86E, F-86F) to justify having enough planes for a second module though.

[jnfrombigt]

On 7/17/2024 at 5:00 PM, Trooper117 said:

I just had a feeling that this commander thing would be the fly in the ointment for me... guess I won't be doing career then, I just want to be a pilot going through the air campaign, not to much to ask is it...

I agree.   I had been looking forward to the new game but not so much now.  Still love the old Battles so as long as they support them I'll be around.  

[deathmisser]

51 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

F9F and AD-2/4 Skyraider operated with the USMC off land-bases - so if any of them get included it doesn't necessarily mean carriers. If they announce the Sea Fury, Fairy Firefly or Seafire that would be a strong indication of carriers - but the F9F wouldn't be. So, even if the menu mock-up is accurate, it isn't evidence.

I see well thank you for that info, normally I won't be interested in this era but seeing this as it's the next gen of combat sims I'm interested to see the first execution of it. 

[CzechTexan]

49 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

P.S. Yes, a sequel with South Korea and a couple of carriers would be pretty neat. They'd probably have to hold back on some Collector Planes and variants (e.g. F-86E, F-86F) to justify having enough planes for a second module though.

One carrier could be worth 4 or 5 Collector Planes.  Everybody wants it.  It could even entice the people who say they won't get -Korea-.

And yes, the F9F could be ground-based Marines unit.

[Avimimus]

16 minutes ago, CzechTexan said:

One carrier could be worth 4 or 5 Collector Planes.  Everybody wants it.  It could even entice the people who say they won't get -Korea-.

And yes, the F9F could be ground-based Marines unit.

 

Honestly, I'm not personally that interested in Carriers... I'd rather have radars and an F7F or an F-82G 😄I'd also prefer more WWI aircraft... so, a Carrier and four American carrier aircraft is something I might not pre-order.

 

That said, I wasn't originally that interested in Korea or the Pacific... and I'm coming around to being quite excited (I try to stay open minded).

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, jnfrombigt said:

I agree.   I had been looking forward to the new game but not so much now.  Still love the old Battles so as long as they support them I'll be around.  

 

As I've said now multiple times, you will be able to automate the supply and personnel admin stuff if you just want to fly.

[ST_Catchov]

It's all very exciting. Let me just say upfront I'm not into those awful whiny modern jet things. Who would be. It's like flying a computer. Who the hell would wanna do that. Real men don't wanna that's for sure. However, the early jets in the Korean war do have some appeal and combat could be quite interesting. So I'm warming to the idea. And a career that's not so boring is a good move.

 

But probably the best thing about this new thing is it'll make me upgrade my PC. Mine is 5 years old now and it was kinda a little below mid-range even then. And my screen is way older and too small. So yes, this is a good thing. Just hope I'm still vertical when it's released.

[deathmisser]

14 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

But probably the best thing about this new thing is it'll make me upgrade my PC. Mine is 5 years old now and it was kinda a little below mid-range even then. And my screen is way older and too small. So yes, this is a good thing. Just hope I'm still vertical when it's released.

Same I should be getting mine tomorrow if not this week my current one is 7 years old and yea it's need to be upgraded well in this case replaced.

The GPU RTX 4060Ti seems to blow most games out the park I've read so it's going to me great to fly sims like this.

 

Without the fear of cooking my GPU and CPU I don't want immersive scent while playing an immersive game hehe.  

Edited July 22, 2024 by deathmisser

[jnfrombigt]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

As I've said now multiple times, you will be able to automate the supply and personnel admin stuff if you just want to fly.

Thanks for the reply and this somewhat changes things.  Still,  I'll be waiting to hear what others experience rather than pre-ordering to save $10.  I've loved what the IL2 team has produced in the past starting with CLOD and have all the air battle series.    As with the other Il2 products  I can see this one evolving within technical and financial viability to meet player wishes.

[ST_Catchov]

7 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Honestly, I'm not personally that interested in Carriers...

 

I think carriers in the Korean war would be more interesting than, for instance, the PTO, should that eventuate. They'd be relatively close to land and near the action and able to participate. Not stuck out in the middle of the ocean. And carrier landings and takeoffs are something many would be itching to do. So there's potential ....

 

7 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I'd also prefer more WWI aircraft.

 

Well of course. It's a no-brainer.

 

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

On 7/20/2024 at 1:47 AM, deathmisser said:

Finally a person wanting to discuss lol

 

"Officially they said they will release a minimum of 8 player controlled aircraft, half jet and half piston engine."

 

Really, now that is interesting I say 12 at least for the first release of the game sounds like a good number.

If they are still not happy about variants then there no harm releasing them later as collectors or even free like the recent Spit.

 

Also could you mind posting that part please as that could be a game changer on how we view the plane list for future releases.

https://il2-korea.com/dd_1

In the first diary of development they say it. 

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

I think carriers in the Korean war would be more interesting than, for instance, the PTO, should that eventuate. They'd be relatively close to land and near the action and able to participate. Not stuck out in the middle of the ocean. And carrier landings and takeoffs are something many would be itching to do. So there's potential ....

 

Of course, I think that could be said of the Solomons/Guadalcanal and New Guinea too? The Japanese airforce hasn't completely disappeared at that point, but there is a lot of close air support being done. It is a nice balance.

[Trooper117]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

you will be able to automate the supply and personnel admin stuff if you just want to fly.

 

In the interview it was stated you can't just fly as a pilot, you have to be a commander... I'm assuming this is at different levels within the regiment i.e. if you are in a flight, you command that flight... is this right?... I understand you can just bypass the admin thing, but this still means you can't just fly as a buckshee pilot?

 

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

25 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

 

In the interview it was stated you can't just fly as a pilot, you have to be a commander... I'm assuming this is at different levels within the regiment i.e. if you are in a flight, you command that flight... is this right?... I understand you can just bypass the admin thing, but this still means you can't just fly as a buckshee pilot?

 

As a commander, you can decide to act as a wingman, or just a leader of a section or any other position. You can be interested in see how certain pilots perform leading a flight. You know, pilots die, so it's better that the squadron has pilots prepared for the different roles.

Edited July 22, 2024 by LF_Mark_Krieger

[deathmisser]

1 hour ago, LF_Mark_Krieger said:

https://il2-korea.com/dd_1

In the first diary of development they say it. 

I see,

 

"By the time of release, it is planned to recreate no less than 8 player-controlled aircraft — half of them will be jets and the other half will be piston-engined aircraft."

 

Ok with that statement it seems the minimum is 8.

 

But from this statement it confirms only 8 is with this module.

 

"Eight aircraft with next level of damage

 

The gradually becoming obsolete piston-engined old rulers of the sky and the young lions of the atomic age - early jets including F-86A Sabre and MiG-15bis - with all major systems modeled and more detailed damage: internal parts visible through the holes, aircraft skin sheets that can become loose, etc."

 

So ether that means 8 for the first release and then more planes will be added with time.

Or they are aiming for 8 but add aircraft in the module if they are ready in time. 

 

It's really confusing now lol

   

 

 

Edited July 22, 2024 by deathmisser

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

1 minute ago, deathmisser said:

I see,

 

"By the time of release, it is planned to recreate no less than 8 player-controlled aircraft — half of them will be jets and the other half will be piston-engined aircraft."

 

Ok with that statement it seems the minimum is 8.

 

But from this statement it confirms only 8 is with this module.

 

"Eight aircraft with next level of damage

 

The gradually becoming obsolete piston-engined old rulers of the sky and the young lions of the atomic age - early jets including F-86A Sabre and MiG-15bis - with all major systems modeled and more detailed damage: internal parts visible through the holes, aircraft skin sheets that can become loose, etc.Eight aircraft with next level of damage"

 

So ether that means 8 for the first release and then more planes will be added with time.

Or they are aiming for 8 but add aircraft in the module if they are ready in time. 

 

It's really confusing now lol

   

 

 

Yes. Right now we can only try to guess. just 8 planes on the release and 2 or more collector planes later? 8 planes on the release and a premium version on the release with 10 or more planes? Who knows. Probably even the developers are not sure about it right know and it will depend about many factors.

[Trooper117]

2 minutes ago, LF_Mark_Krieger said:

As a commander, you can decide to act as a wingman, or just a lider of a section or any other position.

 

Ok... so if I choose just to ignore the leader position, who is going to give orders to the flight?... who is going to make command decisions like who attacks what, what formation to adopt during the flight etc...

[LF_Mark_Krieger]

22 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

 

Ok... so if I choose just to ignore the leader position, who is going to give orders to the flight?... who is going to make command decisions like who attacks what, what formation to adopt during the flight etc...

We still don't know how the new AI will work. Of course it needs to improve a lot compared with GB. For what I know, 1CGS is still searching a programmer specialized in AI. Hope they can do a good job with that, because good AI performance is one of the key aspects of combat flight simulators.

Edited July 22, 2024 by LF_Mark_Krieger

[deathmisser]

1 minute ago, LF_Mark_Krieger said:

Yes. Right now we can only try to guess. just 8 planes on the release and 2 or more collector planes later? 8 planes on the release and a premium version on the release with 10 or more planes? Who knows. Probably even the developers are not sure about it right know and it will depend about many factors.

Well that one thing we can both agree on is that the devs are well still dev'ing lol

 

But yea the 8 as the standard and possibly two more as a deluxe is a good call. 

[slipper]

Personally I would love the management and sim side equally.

 

If it is in anyway similar to Rowan's Mig Alley mixed with the  Falcon 4.0 dynamic campaign...then I would be extremely happy. The more content, options and management, the better for me. It may not be historically true, but its a game after all and if it adds to the immersion and fun, then I'm all for it

Edited July 22, 2024 by slipper