Aircraft Update July 2024: B-17E

[Mysticpuma]

Questions:

1; Even though we said we wouldn't release v6 without VR, we have been unable to fix it. Would you pay full price for V6 without VR?

 

Just a guess.

[Dagwoodyt]

14 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

Questions:

1; Even though we said we wouldn't release v6 without VR, we have been unable to fix it. Would you pay full price for V6 without VR?

 

Just a guess.

Good one! So ATAG members take responsibility😆
 

[Buzzsaw]

1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Just to be clear:

This is a Steam game. It seems like the Steam Cliffs Forum is the appropriate center to host discussion.

No.  Steam is for published games.

 

ATAG is Team Fusions home forum.

[Dagwoodyt]

Will anyone who is not an ATAG member be permitted input before ATAG makes its' final decision?

[Buzzsaw]

1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Will anyone who is not an ATAG member be permitted input before ATAG makes its' final decision?

You need to be registered on the ATAG forum to reply to the survey... so no.

 

There are no restrictions on joining the forum... unless you have previously been banned or have a record of negative behavior.

[Dagwoodyt]

What is problematic about the restriction you are now making is that ATAG membership isn't required in order to purchase your game on Steam.

[Buzzsaw]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

What is problematic about the restriction you are now making is that ATAG membership isn't required in order to purchase your game on Steam.

You can't purchase FORTRESSES AND FOCKE-WULFS - DIEPPE yet.

 

And there is no restriction to registering on ATAG.... unless you have done something to cause you to be banned.

 

Every gaming company has their own website.  Team Fusion's is ATAG... it's been owned by TF since 2018.

 

We haven't yet branded ATAG to TF... because our focus is putting out the new game elements, not making websites... eventually we will do that... but its not our priority.

 

We do have complete control of the ATAG site... something we do not have here... or on Steam.  The Steam site is managed by Fulqrum.

[BOO]

Im failing to see the drama about using the ATAG site. But then Im not prohibited from using it. 

 

An amnesty on any bans that remain wouldnt be a bad idea at this juncture. Pretty sure its only deleting the contents of some table somewhere. Many bans were handed out over "disagrements", shall we say, between the fractured community pre blitz and certainly pre Tobruk and when the site was not TFS but ATAG (albeit TF allied). Now its soley TFS and not a squad site there should be some re-evaluation. 

 

A poll isnt going to have much value if its conducted in a echo chamber without the opportunity to access the broadest range of views. 

 

(and if the Gallagher Brothers can find some common ground for the greater profit....pretty sure there is hope for us all)

Edited August 30, 2024 by BOO

[BOO]

1 hour ago, 356thFS_Leifr said:

Neat, I was banned several years back from the ATAG forum for criticising the awful UI in Cliffs.

I'm glad that future development choices are being locked behind a private forum - what a weird, and frankly horrible, decision.

 

 

I would suspect that any poll exclusive to ATAG potentially risks an automatic bias in favour of VR at present (IF of course VR is an element within any poll).  Thats the sector where the most active recruitment of sign ups have been for the past 3 years and thats where focus has drifted to. 

 

Others will no doubt have their own views about using the ATAG site due to the long and sometimes bad tempered history between it and ACG/SOW. I suppose then there also needs to be some stance softening for those not banned but not willing to sign up to prevent the risk of cutting noses off to spite faces. If a way of avoiding the need to make a post in order to participate in the forums is applied (even if just to the poll) that might help (or otherwise avoid a stream of bad juju posts stating "only posting for the poll", "posting under protest" etc).  

 

Now an amnesty and some requirement adaptions might not signficantly affect the outcome for any number of reasons, but it at least gives opportunity for fuller representaion.

 

#justiceforLeifr

Edited August 30, 2024 by BOO

[Peachy9]

Im sure someone nice will post what the survey asks on the ATAG forum here.

Then whoever is banned can express your views here and if they are constructive and relevant I am sure someone will pick them up.

There is always a way to be heard.

 

[Buzzsaw]

On 8/30/2024 at 12:38 AM, BOO said:

Im failing to see the drama about using the ATAG site. But then Im not prohibited from using it. 

 

An amnesty on any bans that remain wouldnt be a bad idea at this juncture.

I have deleted a number of posts which were just personal back and forth attacks.  Please don't continue or you will get a vacation.

 

Regarding bans on ATAG:

 

We have unbanned a number of former members in the last year when those members requested that be done.

 

And anyone else who wants to be unbanned so they can complete the poll can approach us.

[Hoots]

Could you not just run the poll on several sites? Here, steam and ATAG for example? You are rather limiting the response pool. 

[BOO]

48 minutes ago, Hoots said:

Could you not just run the poll on several sites? Here, steam and ATAG for example? You are rather limiting the response pool. 

Issue with that is knowing who has voted for what., or rather how many times someone has voted for the same over different sites without a whole set of checks being put into place (different accounts, different user nmaes, different emails etc).

 

Given every player needs a steam account just to play the game and that, post Blitz, there is no need to hunt out ATAG for TS patches as many SP players once had to, Im inclined to agree with Dagwoody that Steam is the most appropriate place to put it but there could be reasons why it isnt. 

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

If the V5 VU/VR update will be made available without my having to register on another forum I am perfectly OK with not getting to vote. V6 is a different issue so I don't see a need to register on ATAG just to opine on something down the road.🙂

[BOO]

18 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If the V5 VU/VR update will be made available without my having to register on another forum I am perfectly OK with not getting to vote. V6 is a different issue so I don't see a need to register on ATAG just to opine on something down the road.🙂

 

Whats if its a guage of feeling about the VU being released without the VR and the VR going back to "soon,when able" status?  If you have an interest it wouldnt hurt to register even if thats all you ever do on the site. C'mon everyone loves a poll! 🙂  

[Dagwoodyt]

3 hours ago, BOO said:

 

Whats if its a guage of feeling about the VU being released without the VR and the VR going back to "soon,when able" status?  If you have an interest it wouldnt hurt to register even if thats all you ever do on the site. C'mon everyone loves a poll! 🙂  

Well I won't know that before you show your cards☺️

 

To be clear: Until I know what's in the ATAG Only poll/survey there is no way to make an informed decision as to whether there is a reason to register there. No one has pre-ordered V6 so I am not yet understanding the ATAG requirement, but so be it.🙂

Edited September 1, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[5th_Barone]

If the aim is to gather data from the highest numbers of users, why not using a google form?

It's a tool already used by devs and communieties

[Dagwoodyt]

I am still trying to understand the purpose of the poll. The new DLC was announced by Fulqrum nearly one year ago. I don't know how any changes to the announced DLC can be made except through Fulqrum. Why would Fulqrum have to honor the results of an ATAG poll? WRT VR, I don't see an unequivocal commitment to VR support in the Fulqrum announcement, so I am guessing that Dieppe could arguably launch with or without VR support. Nothing in their announcement would need to be changed either way.

[Blitzen]

What pole? Where? Did I miss it?

[Dagwoodyt]

57 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

What pole? Where? Did I miss it?

 

 

?

[BOO]

6 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I am still trying to understand the purpose of the poll. The new DLC was announced by Fulqrum nearly one year ago. I don't know how any changes to the announced DLC can be made except through Fulqrum. Why would Fulqrum have to honor the results of an ATAG poll? WRT VR, I don't see an unequivocal commitment to VR support in the Fulqrum announcement, so I am guessing that Dieppe could arguably launch with or without VR support. Nothing in their announcement would need to be changed either way.

 

You keep referring to ATAG but the site is now owned and run under TFS. So, as we are told, its now the "offical" Developer site. Its a dev poll so that makes some sense. There's no mention of any committment to homour any result and its a fool who would. 

 

I agree with you that there is a possibility of Dieppe coming without VR. 

[Dagwoodyt]

6 hours ago, BOO said:

You keep referring to ATAG but the site is now owned and run under TFS. So, as we are told, its now the "offical" Developer site.

If you think of it as a TFS poll, OK.

Thanks!

[jdu]

4 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If you think of it as a TFS poll, OK.

Thanks!

Some people understand quickly, but you have to explain it to them over a loooooooooooong period of time.

[major_setback]

20 hours ago, Blitzen said:

What pole? Where? Did I miss it?

 

This announcement (bottom of the post).

 

 

....As a further note:

 

In the fall we will be putting up a survey on the ATAG forum asking the community their opinion on various subjects related to CLIFFS and its development.

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by major_setback

[No.54_Reddog]

First visit to the forums in quite some time and this is a fantastic thread to read, well done all. Keep up the good work.

[/sarcasm]

 

So having failed yet again to meet your own deadlines and promises, we are now moving to asking the community what they want? (But only in the fall?) What is this ludicrousness? The silent majority have already voted with their feet and aren't coming back whatever you do, the vocal negative minority told you months ago to decouple the VU from the VR, and the loyal vocal minority told you to ignore the naysayers of doom. 

 

Hold the course! Stay on target!.

[Dagwoodyt]

This thread is certainly interesting from a customer relations standpoint.

Edited September 4, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[=RS=Funkie]

@dagwoodyt 
I can understand why you’re frustrated with the delays in updates, It’s clear that you’re passionate about the game, and that passion is important to the community.

But I think it’s also worth considering the unique challenges Team Fusion is dealing with. They're a small group of volunteers, not a large studio with full-time staff. Despite the limited resources, they've managed to keep the game alive, have released a full DLC and continue to have ambitious future plans. This is something we don't see in other niche areas of combat flight sims. 

While delays are disappointing, unfortunately in the nature of this development it is almost a certainty - When they run into a game breaking issue, they can't just hire the skill they need to fix it, they need to set aside time in their personal and professional lives to train up new skillsets, or rely on finding other volunteers who have the time and passion to delve into Cliffs source code. But repeating the same negative points over and over doesn’t really move the conversation forward. Constructive feedback is always valuable, but constant negativity risks discouraging the devs from sharing. It might even turn away potential new players, (and player count appears to be an important factor for you.)

Maybe instead of focusing on the delays you could look at the entire project in context and see it for the community collaboration and celebration for ww2 aviation that it seems like to me.

 

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

This thread is certainly interesting from a customers relations standpoint.

It's interesting to me. When developers engage with the community and allow them to weigh in on the direction of the game via a poll, it's generally considered to be a good thing to do! 

[Dagwoodyt]

paragraphs of non-response

Thanks!

[=RS=Funkie]

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

paragraphs of non-response

Thanks!

 

Sorry if my response felt off the mark. I’m genuinely just trying to contribute to a constructive conversation about where the game is headed and the challenges it faces. I get that you’re frustrated, and I think we all want to see progress faster.

No hard feelings—I’m just hoping for a dialogue that helps everyone stay positive about the game.

[Mysticpuma]

I think it's heading for either a delayed release or released with limited content in December (with the promise of more to come for early adopters).

[jdu]

6 hours ago, =RS=Funkie said:

 

No hard feelings—I’m just hoping for a dialogue that helps everyone stay positive about the game.

it's a waste of time here!

[Dagwoodyt]

5 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I think it's heading for either a delayed release or released with limited content in December (with the promise of more to come for early adopters).

Either way it will be Fulqrum's call.

[Buffo002]

I don't know what you are still dealing with. There is no update, VR etc or slow DLC. As far as I know, TF said (multiple times) that they won't update every single change and then another and another, but they will do it once VR, true sky, k4 graphics, sounds and a lot of other things they are working on are done. And if I remember correctly, the new DLC is supposed to be ready around the end of the year, so I don't know what is still being discussed here, that TF is not doing anything ... . Now, for example, it was the holiday season, so they are also people and they also need to rest and be with their family. In addition, it does not solve one thing, but many at once ... . So wait. Insults won't get anyone anywhere. So play other games for now. For example, I play the good old IL-2 1946 and there are a lot of campaigns to download, and those who play online certainly have a lot of choice.

[Dagwoodyt]

Wonder if the Fall Poll ATAG membership requirement will be floated on the Steam forum or if it will be an opportunity limited to members of this forum.

Edited September 4, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[Dagwoodyt]

On 9/3/2024 at 6:38 PM, =RS=Funkie said:

t's interesting to me. When developers engage with the community and allow them to weigh in on the direction of the game via a poll, it's generally considered to be a good thing to do! 

 

 

 

So should this roster represent the functioning definition of "the community"?

 

[=RS=Funkie]

8 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

So should this roster represent the functioning definition of "the community"?

 

Would you be interested in actually engaging in a civil discussion about this? I feel like there's a misunderstanding here.

The ATAG flight roster you posted and the forum membership are separate. The poll isn’t restricted to just ATAG Squadron members, It’s open to anyone who registers on the forums. 

But I understand what you're saying about making the poll more inclusive. But I feel like you've already said your piece, and ultimately it's up to Team Fusion to decide how they poll their users. 

I do have some points on alternatives if you're interested;

1) Polls on Steam Discussions: From what I’ve seen, it looks like polls aren’t a built-in feature on Steam’s discussion forums, and they might not even be allowed. Steam often recommends developers host polls on their own forums—like what Team Fusion is doing on ATAG.
 

2) Using a Google Form: I agree that something like a Google Form could work, but it would still need a way to ensure people aren’t sockpuppeting or submitting multiple votes. Players would likely have to register or provide some kind of detail to avoid that, and there’s always a risk of bot activity or spam. With their own forum, Team Fusion has more control over these issues.

3) Posting on Multiple Forums: It might be a good idea to make announcements or posts here and on Steam discussions, even if it just links back to the ATAG forum poll. But posting a separate poll here AND on the ATAG forum would risk doubling up on votes and skewing the results.

I hope that answers your question and clears up the misunderstanding you had

 

[kellywaderay]

Oh I can't waittttttt!!!!!!!!!!!  This is my all time favorite aircraft.  My son and I can't wait to see it in action here.  This plane is literally no where else that matters and the mighty 8th was so long ago.  The new graphics are going to be incredible I just know it.

[Avimimus]

I've removed some off-topic posts. This thread should be about Team Fusion's work.

[No.54_Reddog]

There was an "announcement" of sorts by Buzzsaw earlier on a thread which seems to have disappeared again, namely that the TFS B17 isn't in the game yet and they're working on getting the external model in, but that they have not got the cockpit modelling done.

 

A lot left to do with not a lot of time to go?

[Dagwoodyt]

Lack of a plan to provide timely updates invites speculation, which speculation is then roundly denounced😊

 

Edited October 20, 2024 by Dagwoodyt