FFB joysticks

[dgiatr]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:07 PM, Aapje said:

@dgiatr

 

Yes, here:

 

 

 

On 8/18/2024 at 2:29 PM, SR-F_Winger said:

Just FYI: There is no reason why a left handed VPC grip should not work on a Rhino base. Electronics wise its the same.
Its purely geometric diffrence of the physical button layout. Nothing else.

To make 100% sure just ask on VPForce discord. But i would bet money on the anser being "YES it works"

OK!

1. Vpforce DIY kit ordered.

Shipping from Rolf next week.

2. Virpil grip left handed constellation arrived.

3. Motors+usb from Rhino on their way...

4. Power supply on its way home..

Has anybody else here tried this?

Edited August 31, 2024 by dgiatr

[SR-F_Winger]

On 8/31/2024 at 10:54 AM, dgiatr said:

 

OK!

1. Vpforce DIY kit ordered.

Shipping from Rolf next week.

2. Virpil grip left handed constellation arrived.

3. Motors+usb from Rhino on their way...

4. Power supply on its way home..

Has anybody else here tried this?

Take a look here:

There are multiple voices on the Kaltokri-Kit

Edited September 2, 2024 by SR-F_Winger

[Youtch]

There still seems to be no news about the new Virpil FFB platform.

 

So far, VP Rhino and consorts seem to be still the main go to for quality Hardare + Software, with the burdens of the long waiting list and high cost.

 

One of the point which is key for me is the height of the ffb base together with how to combine it with curve extension that would put the stick still in an ergonomic place

[hsthhsth]

@Youtch, I got a curved extension from https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46&products_id=211 .

For a VKB joystick you have to order the VKB adapter from VPforce with the Rhino and that works no problem with these extensions.

 

What I found the best is that you can order an extension in the measurements you need for your situation.

[Aapje]

@Youtch

 

The Moza base seems to be shipping to some of those who preordered, but the software seems to have issues. But I expect that in the next few weeks we'll get a better picture of where Moza stands right now.

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, hsthhsth said:

@Youtch, I got a curved extension from https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46&products_id=211 .

For a VKB joystick you have to order the VKB adapter from VPforce with the Rhino and that works no problem with these extensions.

Nice find!

Where are they shipping from?

[Youtch]

Many thanks for sharing this. They offer a lot of options.

It looks like they are shipping from UK.

 

Is the print material rigid enough compared to metal VKB extension?

 

I am also afraid for the long term robustness of the printed thread.

 

With all these pieces added extension + adapter between the grip and base does the whole set still fill sturdy?

 

Thanks again,

y.

[GVL224]

3 часа назад, hsthhsth сказал:

@Youtch, I got a curved extension from https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46&products_id=211 .

For a VKB joystick you have to order the VKB adapter from VPforce with the Rhino and that works no problem with these extensions.

 

What I found the best is that you can order an extension in the measurements you need for your situation.

 

Wow, what kind of effort is required on these joysticks if you can use a printed extension...
There have been cases on FFBeast where aluminum extension tubes have broken

[hsthhsth]

QR4rigs ships from the UK. The 'standard' 100rh100 did cost €47,63 + €17,20 for import duties. (you don't pay VAT in UK as it is for export).

With the VKB adapter I can turn the stick in any direction, not limited to 15 degrees.

 

So far, really happy with the extension. Feels sturdy and solid.

[Dagwoodyt]

The VPforce adapter seems flimsy on visual inspection and I wonder if it would maintain a 15 degree offset for any length of time.

[hsthhsth]

The VKB adapter does not interact with the (standard) connector and therefore you can can turn it freely in any direction before you tighten it to the connector.

It has the full thread length that a TM joystick has so no difference there. And a TM joystick could also be used with the same offset.

 

In short, no, the adapter is not flimsy and is as sturdy as the other connectors.

[Aapje]

The yoke announcement from Virpil suggests that their FFB base is a pretty long way off.

[BOO]

I've just noticed that since late July the cost of the Rhino has increased quite significantly with a fairly arbitary shift from "inc VAT" to  "ex VAT". 

[Youtch]

On 9/6/2024 at 9:40 AM, hsthhsth said:

QR4rigs ships from the UK. The 'standard' 100rh100 did cost €47,63 + €17,20 for import duties. (you don't pay VAT in UK as it is for export).

With the VKB adapter I can turn the stick in any direction, not limited to 15 degrees.

 

So far, really happy with the extension. Feels sturdy and solid.

Thanks for your information, really usefull.

 

May I ask which VKB grip do you have and which extension you chose?

[hsthhsth]

@Youtch, I have the MCG Pro and use it with the 100rh100 extension (see picture in previous post).

Because the offset from the center I added some force in the VPforce software to counter the weight of the stick. And now the stick stays centered when the base is powered on.

I prefer it this way because I like it this way, not because it it would be more realistic as I do not have real life experience.

 

 

@BOO, when I ordered my base (January this year) all the items in the ordering list had this +VAT behind the item price. I never had the information that prices would be including VAT.

Edited September 8, 2024 by hsthhsth

[BOO]

57 minutes ago, hsthhsth said:

 

@BOO, when I ordered my base (January this year) all the items in the ordering list had this +VAT behind the item price. I never had the information that prices would be including VAT.

 

 

[hsthhsth]

@BOO, interesting. Didn't see that mentioned in my ordering process.

[Youtch]

21 hours ago, hsthhsth said:

@Youtch, I have the MCG Pro and use it with the 100rh100 extension (see picture in previous post).

Because the offset from the center I added some force in the VPforce software to counter the weight of the stick. And now the stick stays centered when the base is powered on.

I prefer it this way because I like it this way, not because it it would be more realistic as I do not have real life experience.

 

 

@BOO, when I ordered my base (January this year) all the items in the ordering list had this +VAT behind the item price. I never had the information that prices would be including VAT.

May I ask why you chose an extension with 100cm horizontal? Are you using the ffb base in standard configuration with red button behind or you inverted the base as the video seems to be suggesting that many users did.

 

I am also surprised why the extensions they propose are tilting the grip 12 degrees (grip rake ankle). Is it something standard? Are standard vkb/virpil extension tilted the same way? I am curious what is the ergonomic benefit of it? I understand that this much change depending on how close is your hands to your body.

 

Many thanks for your insight.

[hsthhsth]

I choose the 10cm horizontal connection so I could keep the base in the standard setup, the buttons towards me.

I do not have the tilted version, as far as I understand it's more for joystick placement on the side like with the F-16. Look at the bottom here https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46&products_id=211 .

 

Because you can order an extension that suits your own setup you do not have to go for 'one-size fits all'.

 

I'm quite happy with the one I have now.

[Youtch]

Many thanks.

 

I understand that the VPforce itself introduces the equivalent of 100mm extension. Is that correct?

[Varibraun]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

I understand that the VPforce itself introduces the equivalent of 100mm extension. Is that correct?

 

Correct, approximately 100mm (see photos in spoiler below), also from P. 1 of the manual below including the max deflection. 

 

Personally, I have not added any additional extension to my Rhino at this point because it seems sufficient and I am limited in height due to the mounting on the DoFReality P3 center rail (see photo).  I have been considering a small custom extension from qr4rigs to bring the stick just a little closer to my body because the cut-out in my seat is just a little too small to allow me to move the Rhino further back (I used a QR4Rigs mount for my old Virpil base and was very happy with it).

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2024 by Varibraun

[Youtch]

16 hours ago, Varibraun said:

Personally, I have not added any additional extension to my Rhino at this point because it seems sufficient and I am limited in height due to the mounting on the DoFReality P3 center rail (see photo).

Thanks for sharing these pics with your set-up, very interesting.

 

The problem is that once you are used to a 20cm extension, it is quite hard to go back to 10cm.

 

I was actually sharing a similar concern, as I am targetting the DoF Reality H2 as well to become part of my final set-up.

I know that people have been inquiring if there is a plan from DoF Reality to lower the platform to allow for FFB base + extension or cyclics, since both are becoming more popular.

 

 

y.

[Varibraun]

8 hours ago, Youtch said:

Thanks for sharing these pics with your set-up, very interesting.

 

The problem is that once you are used to a 20cm extension, it is quite hard to go back to 10cm.

 

I was actually sharing a similar concern, as I am targetting the DoF Reality H2 as well to become part of my final set-up.

I know that people have been inquiring if there is a plan from DoF Reality to lower the platform to allow for FFB base + extension or cyclics, since both are becoming more popular.

 

I think the bad news is that I don't see any easy way for a DoFR 2/3 to lower the center rail.  When Igor mentioned on YT about exploring a mounting for the Rhino, he was likely referring to a bracket for the rail, not a redesign just to fit the Rhino.  You can see what I mean in a couple of photos below, the motors and rods require a good bit of clearance for movement and that center rail is the main support for the upper part of the system that moves (the "bridge looking" part of the frame to the right in the first photo contains the main bearing).  The H6 might be a different story since I think it sits higher. 

 

All of that said, I would love to be wrong, because Igor/DoFR definitely listens to his customers to try to make improvements.  Maybe the mainstream entries into the flight FFB arena (which also appear to be large bases) will help.  In the meantime, if someone really wanted to make it work, using aluminum extrusions to raise the seat and rudder pedals (vs lowering the Rhino base) might be worth exploring.

 

However, the good news is that I also was using a 20cm extension with my Virpil CM3 base and I honestly don't miss the extra 10cm with the precision/realistic feel the Rhino (plus the TeleFFB software) brings even over the dampered CM3.  The Rhino/DoF/Simshaker/VR experience is probably as much immersion as you can ever find without spending a LOT more (or going into a professional simulator).  I have just been blown away over these past few weeks since getting all of this working together (although there were some teething pains for me along the way with the P3 - I will eventually post about those in the motion forum, but it is ALL GOOD now).  

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Youtch]

8 hours ago, Varibraun said:

In the meantime, if someone really wanted to make it work, using aluminum extrusions to raise the seat and rudder pedals (vs lowering the Rhino base) might be worth exploring.

I understood from the interview that this might be a problem because it would shift significantly the center of gravity around which is built the entire platform, hence impacting all rotations.

 

I was looking only at H2 model and I now realised that it is the 3rd motor of P3/H3 that is indeed problematic in term of placement.

Maybe this 3rd motor could be put in another position instead of being underneath the base of the stick.

 

On H2 model, I was assuming that they were thinking of moving backward the point where the frame goes lower to reach pedal level

(at least I thought this is what they were talking about).

 

But I agree there is no quick and dirty easy solution to make room for cyclic or ffb with extension with the current frame.

 

In any case, many thanks for your answer and valuable insights.

[Aapje]

Winwing announced the price and torque:

 

Pitch Control Force – Rated Torque 20+N.m; Roll Control Force – Rated Torque 20+N.m.

Official Price at Global Shipping: 429.85 USD

 

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

Yeah, this is probably going to be the one for me. I hope there‘s going to be a cheaper version without a grip so I can just use my VKB Grips with a DIY mount and my rudder Blackbox.

[Aapje]

We still need to see whether they can produce good software, what the size is going to be, what adapter options there are, etc, but this does look very attractive.

[moespeeds]

On 9/14/2024 at 2:35 PM, Aapje said:

We still need to see whether they can produce good software, what the size is going to be, what adapter options there are, etc, but this does look very attractive.

 

It's all in the software. I've got a Brunner CLS-P, pretty much top of the food chain for FFB, and it's trash with IL2 because the software sucks.

[SR-F_Winger]

On 9/20/2024 at 4:13 PM, moespeeds said:

 

It's all in the software. I've got a Brunner CLS-P, pretty much top of the food chain for FFB, and it's trash with IL2 because the software sucks.

+100
Also one could mention that "GL getting spare parts" in case something fails.
With the Rhino you can simply print your own or ask a local 3D print service. All open source. IMHO thats unbeatable.

Edited September 23, 2024 by SR-F_Winger

[Aapje]

Even DCS' jester is getting in on the action:

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2024 by Aapje

[Black-Witch]

Some people using the Moza AB9 reporting their impressions in DCS on their forums.

 

is anyone using it with IL-2 yet?
 

 

[FTC_Mephisto]

Yeah, trying it right now for Il-2. Any suggestions for settings?

[Black-Witch]

On 10/23/2024 at 8:29 PM, FTC_Mephisto said:

Yeah, trying it right now for Il-2. Any suggestions for settings?

Not for Moza, dunno if the VP Rhino settings would be useful for comparison…

 

 

[Youtch]

2 hours ago, Black-Witch said:

Not for Moza, dunno if the VP Rhino settings would be useful for comparison…

 

 

I had a longer waiting time when i placed the ordwer, and it ended up being less than 6 months of wait, i was just contacted to make the payment.

[Aapje]

It seems that about half of the people who get themselves on the list don't actually order. Although it may have increased now that Moza has a base out.

[BOO]

I intially put up a post stating I'll stick with the Rhino (43 on the list so purchase descision imminent). But now Im not so sure. The reviews on You tube are not side by side comparisons and largly done by folk with no hands on experience of the Rhino (Jabbers has probably the most balanced assessment but that video is 2 month old and Moza are flipping out software updates regualarily). Trusted community reviews? too early. 

 

Moza has a decent rep in the sim racing world and the base looks a million dollars. But the VP telem stuff is way more granular and developed. Whats more FFB bases are what VP do. Its not just another product line and its got a knowledgable community onboard too. There are so many plus and minues, current known to wished for features, unknown developent of software v already great software, supporting small business v corporate manufacture, mass producation v handbuild. Above all, for all its unknowns the Moza is almost half the price. 

 

I dunno - the cowards way out is to wait for now and rejoin the VP list knowing its moving faster than before and cojitate on whether all those pluses currenting favouring the Rhino get addressed in the Moza software (my gut feeling is partly but never fully) and whether, for all the lofty feel good notions, the extra £400- £450 is justifiable.

 

Then again there is something very nice about knowing you own something actually built by its creator and whose factory I could, in theory, drive to from where I live (long drive-wouldnt recommend it). That MFG feeling. 

 

[GVL224]

3 часа назад, BOO сказал:

I intially put up a post stating I'll stick with the Rhino (43 on the list so purchase descision imminent).

 

Don't forget that there is another option, FFBeast!
FFBeast has the highest capacity of all the existing FFB projects.

[BOO]

22 hours ago, BOO said:

I intially put up a post stating I'll stick with the Rhino (43 on the list so purchase descision imminent). But now Im not so sure. The reviews on You tube are not side by side comparisons and largly done by folk with no hands on experience of the Rhino (Jabbers has probably the most balanced assessment but that video is 2 month old and Moza are flipping out software updates regualarily). Trusted community reviews? too early. 

 

Moza has a decent rep in the sim racing world and the base looks a million dollars. But the VP telem stuff is way more granular and developed. Whats more FFB bases are what VP do. Its not just another product line and its got a knowledgable community onboard too. There are so many plus and minues, current known to wished for features, unknown developent of software v already great software, supporting small business v corporate manufacture, mass producation v handbuild. Above all, for all its unknowns the Moza is almost half the price. 

 

I dunno - the cowards way out is to wait for now and rejoin the VP list knowing its moving faster than before and cojitate on whether all those pluses currenting favouring the Rhino get addressed in the Moza software (my gut feeling is partly but never fully) and whether, for all the lofty feel good notions, the extra £400- £450 is justifiable.

 

Then again there is something very nice about knowing you own something actually built by its creator and whose factory I could, in theory, drive to from where I live (long drive-wouldnt recommend it). That MFG feeling. 

 

 

One thing that I had not factored was Euros - GBP. Stupidly. With that conversion, whilst the Rhino is still quite a lot more expensive, its not double the price or anywhere near. So , given everything else I said above, and especially because of the software state and DIY repair ability, strength dial and disconnet stop button Im sticking to the Rhino. 

[Varibraun]

9 hours ago, BOO said:

So , given everything else I said above, and especially because of the software state and DIY repair ability, strength dial and disconnet stop button Im sticking to the Rhino. 

 

Boo, FWIW - I faced your same dilemma a couple of months ago when my Rhino # came up right when (and likely as a result of) the Moza announcement.  After much thought and weighing the experience of others here, I made your same decision to move forward with the Rhino. 

 

While I can't compare the two, I can tell you that the Rhino is absolutely one of the best purchases I have made in my sim "career."  In addition to the extra realism/immersion compared to a traditional stick, it has definitely also made me a better sim marksman and pilot.  So, I think you will be very happy once you receive it, plus you will probably have a few extra months of FFB joy than you would have if you had ordered the Moza, since I think they are backordered for new purchasers right now.  

[Dagwoodyt]

On 10/23/2024 at 12:29 PM, FTC_Mephisto said:

Yeah, trying it right now for Il-2. Any suggestions for settings?

So how is it working with GB Il-2?