How could it be Korea?IIRC Han said next project is 'Forgotten War'

[Bell]

How could Korea War be called 'forgotten'?

[Avimimus]

Honestly, a lot of wars can be, it depends on how much 'remembering' it takes to actually remember something.

 

In the United States, Korea was overshadowed by Vietnam and WWII... so they don't tend to talk about it much. I'm not sure about the former Soviet Union - but they didn't officially fight in it (even if many of the Migs had Russian pilots). The war also ended in a stalemate, making it a narrative that is less clear. I'm not sure about Chinese memory of the war.

 

In Canada, we didn't fight in Vietnam, so Korea was a significant memory here but I wouldn't say it is really 'remembered'. I bet a lot of Canadians watching American television are much more aware of Vietnam than Korea. A lot of what I knew growing up came from talking to people who talked to veterans... but that type of oral tradition is being lost.

 

I'm sure the Koreans remember it. But I think saying it is relatively forgotten isn't that unreasonable.

[Aapje]

Wikipedia: It has been sometimes referred to in the English-speaking world as "The Forgotten War" or "The Unknown War" because of the lack of public attention it received during and afterwards, relative to the global scale of World War II, which preceded it, and the subsequent angst of the Vietnam War, which succeeded it.

[Avimimus]

5 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Wikipedia: It has been sometimes referred to in the English-speaking world as "The Forgotten War" or "The Unknown War" because of the lack of public attention it received during and afterwards, relative to the global scale of World War II, which preceded it, and the subsequent angst of the Vietnam War, which succeeded it.

 

Which is a bit of an American take.

 

In Canada we went from Korea to Afghanistan (with some peacekeeping operations in between). So for us it was the last war, the war in the 1950s that almost led to a nuclear exchange - and when I was very young, the deployments were all small scale and war blue helmets. It was almost like war was finally coming to an end (under the threat of nuclear arms).

[Trooper117]

Ask Michael Caine if he's forgotten the Korean war... some of his experiences in Korea would make your hair stand on end!

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Technically,  the U.S. military led the United Nations' expeditionary force, its involvement was tied only to a UN Security Council resolution, because the UN itself cannot declare war. Consequently, the conflict in Korea did not technically constitute a war.

 

But, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quaks like a duck......

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Bell]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I'm not sure about Chinese memory of the war.

Almost every Chinese knows about the Korean War.

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

In the United States, Korea was overshadowed by Vietnam and WWII... so they don't tend to talk about it much.

I think anyone who knows Sabre knows about the Korean War.

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

Wikipedia: It has been sometimes referred to in the English-speaking world as "The Forgotten War" or "The Unknown War" because of the lack of public attention it received during and afterwards, relative to the global scale of World War II, which preceded it, and the subsequent angst of the Vietnam War, which succeeded it.

I'm shocked,I'm Chinese.

17 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

the conflict in Korea did not technically constitute a war

You must be joking.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

1 minute ago, Bell said:

Almost every Chinese knows about the Korean War.

I think anyone who knows Sabre knows about the Korean War.

I'm shocked,I'm Chinese.

You must be joking.

Look it up.

[CountZero]

It is well known in west that Korean war is forgotten war,

 

 

https://www.pgurus.com/korean-war-the-forgotten-war/

 

It was obvious what he ment when he said that in video

20yo game:

 

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/korea-forgotten-conflict-review/1900-6085532/

 

even Canada dont remenbers it :

https://www.amazon.com/Korea-Canadas-Forgotten-John-Melady/dp/1459701321

 

probably in sssr they didnt talk mutch about their pilots in it, so maybe in russia is also known as forgotten war

[ShamrockOneFive]

Yeah this is not surprising to me in the slightest. The Korean War is often regarded as a forgotten conflict. Even the description on the Korea IL-2 website makes note that Korea was sandwiched between World War II and Vietnam, both which occupy significant amounts of written and filmed material. You can find an avalanche of miniseries, TV shows, books, documentaries and the like on those two conflicts but very little about the Korean War. Counterpoint... MASH. But nobody even seems to remember the war its depicting.

 

It's definitely a forgotten war.

[Aapje]

In The Netherlands it is also pretty much forgotten. WW2 is the traditional benchmark. More recently, due to modern politics, the colonial wars have gotten a lot of attention.

 

In general, remembrance of past conflicts is often a political tool for modern purposes, so if a war cannot be (ab)used such, it tends to be forgotten.

[BraveSirRobin]

6 hours ago, Bell said:

How could Korea War be called 'forgotten'?

There was actually a tv documentary about the war called “The Forgotten War”, so this isn’t the first time it’s been described that way.

[Gambit21]

 

6 hours ago, Bell said:

Almost every Chinese knows about the Korean War.

I think anyone who knows Sabre knows about the Korean War.

I'm shocked,I'm Chinese.

You must be joking.

It’s a figure of speech.

Don’t over-think it. 

[Enceladus828]

14 hours ago, Avimimus said:

In Canada we went from Korea to Afghanistan (with some peacekeeping operations in between). So for us it was the last war, the war in the 1950s that almost led to a nuclear exchange - and when I was very young, the deployments were all small scale and war blue helmets. It was almost like war was finally coming to an end (under the threat of nuclear arms).

24 year old Canadian here and I barely know anything about the Korean and Vietnam Wars other than their timeframes, the aircraft used and their outcomes. One particular Korean War event I know of other than the stories of Jesse Brown and Royce Williams is the Hungnam Evacuation aka The Miracle of Christmas (Timeless on NBC was such a great show).

 

Much like Desert Wings - Tobruk and Isonzo I practically knew next to nothing about the respective theatres until getting the games and now know a lot about them so I hope the same will be for Korea.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Enceladus828

[LukeFF]

I think here in the US the war is primarily remembered either by those who have some sort of familial connection to it, were actually there, or are just really interested in military history. For me, I had a grandfather who was there (USN, on a Destroyer Escort), and I interacted with quite a few Korea vets at the military hospital I was stationed at on Fort Bragg. 

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Enceladus828 said:

Much like Desert Wings - Tobruk  and Isonzo I practically knew next to nothing about the respective theatres until getting the games and now know a lot about them so I hope the same will be for Korea.

 

Yes, as family memories fade, autobiographies are read less, and other concerns become more common, these sims really do help keep memory alive.

[migmadmarine]

6 hours ago, Bell said:

You must be joking.

Listen to the first the verse of this: 

 

Technically not a war was something of a common joke during and after, since at least from the UN and western perspective it was marketed as a "UN police action". 

[Aapje]

21 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Yes, as family memories fade, autobiographies are read less, and other concerns become more common, these sims really do help keep memory alive.

Yeah, and these provide more accurate information to people than the Hollywood account of history.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

8 hours ago, Aapje said:

In The Netherlands it is also pretty much forgotten. WW2 is the traditional benchmark. More recently, due to modern politics, the colonial wars have gotten a lot of attention.

 

In general, remembrance of past conflicts is often a political tool for modern purposes, so if a war cannot be (ab)used such, it tends to be forgotten.

Yup. Korea was a war on the other side of the world, where only some 4700 Dutchmen fought, at a time when the Netherlands were still recovering from 5 years of war, destruction and oppression on our home soil. The government wasn't very keen to get involved, and neither were most who went: "Money is the most important reason to enlist, as well as fleeing a difficult family situation at home. [...] Some of the personnel is mentally unstable or medically unfit. Those with a criminal past are offered rehabilitation in exchange for their service." Those criminals included Dutchmen who had previously fought with the German SS and Kriegsmarine.

 

All in all, I'd say neither the army, the government nor a significant portion of the soldiers were very keen on remembering the Korean War.

 

10 hours ago, Bell said:

Almost every Chinese knows about the Korean War.

Korea borders China. The war itself directly follows up the Chinese Civil War, China was the largest ally of North Korea, and participated already in the planning phase of the invasion of the South. I'd say it's only natural that the average Chinese knows a lot more about the Korean War than someone from a European country or the USA.

 

Which is not to say that the West doesn't know anything at all about the war. It's common knowledge that there was (technically, still is) a Korean War, but the details are much less known than those of WW2 which happened on our own territory. You shouldn't read "forgotten" in its literal sense, but as a figure of speech compared to other wars closer at home. 

Edited June 26, 2024 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Gambit21]

A lot of it has to do without school system honestly, and what is/is not in the curriculum. A lot isn't, on all fronts.

So unless you're a history/military/aviation buff, you may have heard of it only in passing. 

Also Hollywood wasn't busy making movies about it, unlike WWII...etc etc. 

So was never a part of pop-culture, not really covered in school...thus "forgotten" 

[Bell]

12 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Technically not a war was something of a common joke during and after, since at least from the UN and western perspective it was marketed as a "UN police action".

In the eyes of Chinese, this is war.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Bell

[Robli]

This war was overshadowed by WWII and Vietnam for sure, but kind of hard to forget it, if the topics about North and South Korea are in the news all the time right now also. It is also kind of  forgotten that the war has not even officially ended. There is no peace treaty, just armistice between North and South Korea.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, Bell said:

In the eyes of Koreans, this is war.

 

Yes, indeed. The trauma still lives as well, very clearly (and on both sides of the line). This shouldn't be forgotten.

 

11 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

A lot of it has to do without school system honestly, and what is/is not in the curriculum. A lot isn't, on all fronts.

15 hours ago, Aapje said:

Yeah, and these provide more accurate information to people than the Hollywood account of history.

 

Yes, it is quite interesting how things are remembered differently.

 

For instance, I've heard the story of a mid-air collision between two Lancasters from more than one person. The pilot was showing off apparently, and the fact that the deaths seemed so unnecessary cemented the memory, along with I was told, the popularity of the mid-upper gunner of one of the Lancasters who had a lot of friends... the unit took a lot of causalities, but that one moment was cemented more strongly for a number of veterans.

 

Another example is Korea, where the tensions between the U.S. command structure and other forces are remembered in oral history (and some work by historians), but not popular history. When I was young some people were still quite angry about April 24 1951, and the perceived lack of communication and lack of support (with the Canadians forced to fight a rear-guard action without support on our flanks). Official memory treats Kapyong as a victory, but it was told to me as a story of desperation with the moral that it is risky to deploy under U.S. command.

[R7-S276]

at the origin, Il-2 1946 - Forgotten battles was WW2 in Finland and Hungary… 😇

[Bell]

10 hours ago, R7-S276 said:

at the origin, Il-2 1946 - Forgotten battles was WW2 in Finland and Hungary… 😇

Haha, I thought of this when I posted this topic.Strictly speaking, the forgotten battle is not the 1946,it was earlier.Forgotten Battles focuses on the Soviet-Finnish Continuation War of 1941-1944,there doesn't seem to be a map of Hungary?

[BraveSirRobin]

Are we done with the pedantic chucklehead debate over the definition of “forgotten”, or is this going to continue until that poor horse is dead?

[bycomet]

Real funny. Nonsense squabble. If you argue it isn't 'forgotten', you'd better know what does 'forgotten' mean. If no one talks about it, no movies, no games, and no school teaching... that is forgotten. But devs've been taking years of development to make the game and evoke people's memory. All simers will know the war. This is their contribution, real investment.

 

It's nothing like just argue with righteous words saying people from other countries shouldn't forget you simply because 'I'm Chinese', 'almost every Chinese knows', 'In the eyes of Chinese'. It's your business. If you've done nothing to make it publicly known, what points do you have to support your quibble?

Edited June 28, 2024 by bycomet

[Robli]

I think that the term "Forgotten War" comes from the point that not long after that came Vietnam and got all the attention and kind of defined an era, so Korea was "forgotten" compared to that, not that it was really ever forgotten. There were successful movies about the war already in the 60's (The Manchurian Candidate with Frank Sinatra and War Hunt with Robert Redford for example), then the legendary M*A*S*H, followed by a TV series that lasted for more than a decade, in the 80's there was at least this movie with Clint Eastwood as a Korean veteran (Heartbreak Ridge), "That 70's Show" from the end on 90's to early 2000's had one on the main characters as Korean veteran etc. So certainly the war was not really forgotten in the direct meaning of the word, but rather in comparison to Vietnam.

[Avimimus]

Let us avoid getting personal. I don't think we're really disagreeing, except perhaps slightly with regard to definitions.

 

I think it could be argued, that having only one sim (compared to over a dozen for the 8th Airforce, and over half a dozen for the Pacific) - it is relatively forgotten in the simulation world at least. I think we can also argue that some people, particularly countries or families who were more involved, remember it more. We can also agree that many of us want to see it remembered and remembered in an appropriate way.

 

So, depending on the perspective taken, most of the positions taken in this thread are actually correct.

[Trooper117]

I think we've established that Korea is 'The Forgotten War'... it doesn't matter what country you come from or where you heard the term, it has always been called the forgotten war... we are all grown ups, let's move on for gods sake.

[Aapje]

Of course the term 'forgotten' is just relative to other conflicts and not truly accurate, but that is true of many things that people say. It very common that people phrase relative differences as an absolute.

 

For actually forgotten wars, you have to go back to 'prehistoric' times, in other words, the period before we had written records. And then especially the wars in the Americas. But they had no planes back then, other than what the aliens had.

[ShamrockOneFive]

15 hours ago, Bell said:

Haha, I thought of this when I posted this topic.Strictly speaking, the forgotten battle is not the 1946,it was earlier.Forgotten Battles focuses on the Soviet-Finnish Continuation War of 1941-1944,there doesn't seem to be a map of Hungary?

Balaton map.

[firdimigdi]

On 6/26/2024 at 12:32 PM, Bell said:

How could Korea War be called 'forgotten'?

 

Same way any such manipulation of public perception is orchestrated: through decades of repetition, omission and conditioning. Just the fact that someone stuck the monicker to it and it was diligently perpetuated is enough to perceive that some institutions wanted it forgotten.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Robli said:

I think that the term "Forgotten War" comes from the point that not long after that came Vietnam and got all the attention and kind of defined an era, so Korea was "forgotten" compared to that, not that it was really ever forgotten. There were successful movies about the war already in the 60's (The Manchurian Candidate with Frank Sinatra and War Hunt with Robert Redford for example), then the legendary M*A*S*H, followed by a TV series that lasted for more than a decade, in the 80's there was at least this movie with Clint Eastwood as a Korean veteran (Heartbreak Ridge), "That 70's Show" from the end on 90's to early 2000's had one on the main characters as Korean veteran etc. So certainly the war was not really forgotten in the direct meaning of the word, but rather in comparison to Vietnam.

 

The Wonder Years too - the father was IIRC portrayed as an Army officer during the war, Bridges at Toko-Ri of course before that too.

 

Also, another more recent Clint Eastwood movie, Gran Torino. And of course, too, the very recent Devotion. 

So no, not ever really and truly forgotten by Hollywood IMO.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Reasonable explanation imo of why its often referred to as the "Forgotten War" in the west..

 

 

[Gambit21]

…and 2 days later we’re still talking about a figure of speech.

 

 

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Just now, Gambit21 said:

…and 2 days later we’re still talking about a figure of speech.

 

 

Agreed.   Seemed to me there was still some confusion about what that figure of speech implied.  (For some anyway...😉)

[Gambit21]

Somebody who lives in Europe, find me a piece of the “Iron Curtain”  please…I’ve always wanted a chunk.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

Somebody who lives in Europe, find me a piece of the “Iron Curtain”  please…I’ve always wanted a chunk.

I think it was concrete...🙃

[Gambit21]

3 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

I think it was concrete...🙃

Hmmm…I’m pretty sure it’s a drapery made of ferrous iron or it wouldn’t be called Iron Curtain.

 

Korea “The Significantly More Obscure However Not Completely Forgotten Conflict That Has At Times Been Mentioned In Pop-Culture But Not Nearly To The Extent As WWII Or Vietnam” War

 

There - let’s move along people.