Helicopters?

[FTC_Oakwoodson]

Korea was the first conflict that introduced rotary aviation proper as a very useful instrument of warfare, both logistical and offensive. Sikorsky, Bell and Hiller made history with H19, H13, H5 and a few others. One would scarcely imagine a modern conflcit nowadays without usage of rotary aviation. Korea was the place that gave birth to that. 

Would IL2 consider creating these as collector aircraft, akeen to the more unique vehciles we had in GB like the WACO glider? 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2024 by FTC_Oakwoodson

[Avimimus]

It is pretty neat. I'd wonder about the value though? It'd add some interesting Medivac and escort missions - but overall, they lacked armament - and it would be very costly to do all of the coding required to add accurate simulation of helicopter systems into a flight simulator. With the exception of a couple of German designs, the rotorcraft that were used in WWII were autogyros (Cierva, and Kamov)... which would benefit from the rotor modelling, but wouldn't require modelling of the cyclic... so unless they are doing Vietnam next, I find it hard to see the investment being worthwhile in the long term.

 

Note: Two of the helicopters used in Korea did receive official armament kits - but those were only introduced in 1960.

 

P.S. I'd actually rather enjoy a Sikorsky H-5 myself. I like the idea.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The first use of helicopters in combat took place in 1944 when a USAAF Sikorski YR-4B rescued downed pilots in the CBI theatre.  The type was also used later during the retaking of the Philippines, also in the medevac role, and was also embarked aboard several USN repair and supply ships to move parts and equipment ashore.

 

 

 

A YB-4A at the NMUSAF in Dayton Ohio.

Edited July 1, 2024 by BlitzPig_EL

[iFoxRomeo]

I'd be happy with AI Helicopter with a simplified flightmodel.

[migmadmarine]

I think that helos (the Bell 47 especially) are iconically associated with Korea strongly enough that having them in the sim would be highly worthwhile. Especially with the stated game features of walking/swimming and boarding/exiting aircraft, having the ability to fly a helo on SAR flights or medivac could make for very solid gameplay in both SP and MP. Especially as they are making a new engine for this sim, this is a great time to be able to integrate the new physics and controls needed, and if they do go to the CBI/Pacific after this, putting in the YB-4A would be a very cool and unique feature not seen in WWII sims before. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Even if helos were just AI, they would contribute to properly setting the scene, so to speak.

[Gambit21]

Helos are a big bite at this juncture IMHO, so I doubt they’re in the short list. An eventuality? I have no doubt they’d like to when things “settle down” so to speak with the upgraded engine development etc etc.

 

Helos are a whole other thing.

[migmadmarine]

Yea, I don't imagine that the first collector aircraft would be a help, but during/after a second module is in the works? Sure. Would be a good move I think. 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

I think that helos (the Bell 47 especially) are iconically associated with Korea strongly enough that having them in the sim would be highly worthwhile. Especially with the stated game features of walking/swimming and boarding/exiting aircraft, having the ability to fly a helo on SAR flights or medivac could make for very solid gameplay in both SP and MP. Especially as they are making a new engine for this sim, this is a great time to be able to integrate the new physics and controls needed, and if they do go to the CBI/Pacific after this, putting in the YB-4A would be a very cool and unique feature not seen in WWII sims before. 

 

I personally really enjoyed unarmed search and rescue helicopter sims... although I'm not sure how well it would fit into the new engine...

 

What would we rather have:

- A search and rescue helicopter?

- Carriers (F2H, Sea Fury, Seafire)?

- Search radars (F-82G, F7F)?

- Work on another module/theatre?

 

That said, I won't tell anyone not to dream. That would be complete hypocrisy on my part! I'll now dream of flying an H-5... maybe see if I can get an old mod for X-Plane working.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'd take carriers and USN and FAA aircraft any day over helicopters.  If the devs intend to go to the Pacific they will have to do carriers in any case, why not start here?

[AndyJWest]

Helicopters are fun, but I honestly can't see them being a priority for a Korean-war scenario. Flight modelling them would involve major work, if done properly, and given their relatively limited role, would seem a questionable use of limited resources.

[BraveSirRobin]

Modeling helicopters would require an insane amount of work for something that was mostly just used to evacuate wounded from forward triage bases.  They were not intended to see combat.

[migmadmarine]

I think some false equivalencies are being assumed about scope of tasks here, thinking that it has to be helicopters or carriers. The way I hope things would pan out is that the second module after the base korea would be carrier actions, and add a USN (and ideally a RN) carrier with appropriate aircraft. This would be a massive undertaking, as you would need to be modeling ships appropriate to either one or both navy's carrier task forces, as well as teaching the AI to interact with landing and taking off from a carrier, figuring out what happens to the aircraft once they have arrived on deck, and introducing the physics interactions to allow catapult launches and deck recoveries to work on a moving entity in game. This would of course justify a full module package think, and suitably have a higher budget. Helicopters could be addressed after this hurdle has been cleared, potentially while other parts of the team are moving onto other areas for a next module. If they were to go to the pacific at this point, they don't need to introduce anything fundamentally different or new to make the physics function, or create some new form of interaction between game entities, "just" (yea, still a large undertaking but not necessarily tying up the same personnel) modeling the assets and implementing them in game, so potentially someone could tackle the project of making something new to the engine like helicopters. 

 

Since the sim is modeling flight physics, if they have made their physics engine well, introducing a helicopter shouldn't be some impossible task, since they aren't magic, if the physics check out it should be able to work in game. Would take some fiddling, sure, but it's not trying to do anything fundamentally at odds with how any of the other aspects of the game world function. The AI would likely need adapting to fly them, but that would likely be doable.  

 

As to if it's this or radar, we already have radar in the features list  on the website (fair, this doesn't specify air intercept, likely ground based, but if they build the system well, adapting it would hopefully be easy) so I don't think we need to view that as an either or. 

 

Finally, as to them not being combat units, so what? Flying early helos probably wouldn't be for everyone, but I could see it being a great challenge in sim, and producing some great gameplay loops. And on top of this, what is the most well known piece of Korean War media? The Bridges of Toko Ri? Devotion? The Brotherhood of War? No, it's M*A*S*H. I bet you dollars to doughnuts most people when you ask them to think of something to do with Korea, the first thing through their mind is the image of a pair of bell 47s and the tune suicide is painless, at least here in the states. I'm sure helos would be a worthwhile investment, and not such an undertaking that they would be able to single handedly kill carriers as a going concern for the game. 

[BraveSirRobin]

18 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Finally, as to them not being combat units, so what? Flying early helos probably wouldn't be for everyone, but I could see it being a great challenge in sim, and producing some great gameplay loops. And on top of this, what is the most well known piece of Korean War media? The Bridges of Toko Ri? Devotion? The Brotherhood of War? No, it's M*A*S*H. I bet you dollars to doughnuts most people when you ask them to think of something to do with Korea, the first thing through their mind is the image of a pair of bell 47s and the tune suicide is painless, at least here in the states. I'm sure helos would be a worthwhile investment, and not such an undertaking that they would be able to single handedly kill carriers as a going concern for the game. 

1.  MASH was actually a political commentary about Vietnam.  It just used Korea as the backdrop.  It isn’t a documentary.

2.  Every aircraft we got in GB saw significant combat in WW2.  Even the transports.  
3.  Adding realistic helo’s is a massive investment for an aircraft that was not ever intended to be in combat of any kind.  I can’t stress this enough.  It would be a MASSIVE project to get realistic helicopters for a war where helicopters were ancillary at best.

[Gambit21]

16 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Since the sim is modeling flight physics, if they have made their physics engine well, introducing a helicopter shouldn't be some impossible task, since they aren't magic, if the physics check out it should be able to work in game. Would take some fiddling, sure, but it's not trying to do anything fundamentally at odds with how any of the other aspects of the game world function. The AI would likely need adapting to fly them, but that would likely be doable.  

 

It also takes subject matter experts etc, so like I said...a whole other thing.

I have no doubt they could swing it in time, but it hasn't really been their "thing" up to this point.

[Gambit21]

15 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I can’t stress this enough.  It would be a MASSIVE project to get realistic helicopters for a war where helicopters were ancillary at best.

 

Yeah I don't see a helo being thought about too seriously until they at some point,  <Dubious expression> = [on]  go to Vietnam if even then, which no insult intended, seems like pie in the sky right now. 

[BraveSirRobin]

15 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Yeah I don't see a helo being thought about too seriously until they at some point,  <Dubious expression> = [on]  go to Vietnam if even then, which no insult intended, seems like pie in the sky right now. 

Helicopters for Vietnam make a lot more sense.

[migmadmarine]

15 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

1.  MASH was actually a political commentary about Vietnam.  It just used Korea as the backdrop.  It isn’t a documentary.

2.  Every aircraft we got in GB saw significant combat in WW2.  Even the transports.  
3.  Adding realistic helo’s is a massive investment for an aircraft that was not ever intended to be in combat of any kind.  I can’t stress this enough.  It would be a MASSIVE project to get realistic helicopters for a war where helicopters were ancillary at best.

1. So what if it was a series/movie that was actually talking about something else, it was still set there, and is still associated by people with Korea. Star Wars is also about Vietnam an American imperialism, but that doesn't mean it's not also a fun science fiction story, and seen as such by loads of people. 

 

2. I don't think flying front line SAR and Medivac missions is any less involved in combat that C-47s towing gliders and flying paradrops. (note, I'm not meaning by number of sorties, but how adjacent to the action it is.)

 

3. Overcoming that challenge  could be a prestige thing for the devs, another tangible thing to point at when people ask "so what actually is different about this new engine?"  I'm not saying it's trivial, but I don't think it would be a wasted effort at all. What other sim has a good portrayal of these early helos, especially in a wartime environment? 

[BraveSirRobin]

20 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

1. So what if it was a series/movie that was actually talking about something else, it was still set there, and is still associated by people with Korea. Star Wars is also about Vietnam an American imperialism, but that doesn't mean it's not also a fun science fiction story, and seen as such by loads of people. 

So there should be x-wings in this game?

 

But seriously, adding helicopters to a Korea game would be a ridiculous waste of resources.  But keep the dream alive, I  guess.  I just hope you fail.  I’d rather see aircraft that actually contributed to combat ops.

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

3. Overcoming that challenge could be a prestige thing for the devs, another tangible thing to point at when people ask "so what actually is different about this new engine?"  I'm not saying it's trivial, but I don't think it would be a wasted effort at all. What other sim has a good portrayal of these early helos, especially in a wartime environment? 

Why not do a prestige thing that satisfies much more of their player base and earns them more money? Carriers.

 

And a carrier allows many more interesting scenarios than an early heli. Besides, people will be able to do SaR in MSFS 2024. 

[migmadmarine]

Again, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I'm advocating for helos after or in parallel with carriers, especially since they've said already that they want to do carriers.

Edited July 2, 2024 by migmadmarine

[CountZero]

7 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Modeling helicopters would require an insane amount of work for something that was mostly just used to evacuate wounded from forward triage bases.  They were not intended to see combat.

Its not just placing propeler on top insted forward ? 

 

30 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Again, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I'm advocating for helos after or in parallel with carriers, especially since they've said already that they want to do carriers.

 

But it is excactly one thing or the other when they are limited by amount of things the can make. Just look at first 8 airplanes and how mutch is missing, and they had to make a choice to make il-10 and yak9p insted more commonly used un airplane types.

[migmadmarine]

Which is why I'm talking about this as a collector aircraft(s) after the main release. They've made their choice for this pack, and probably have an idea for the next. And sure, of course they chose to put in more NK types to keep an even lineup, and they by the looks of things have a solid representative sample for the first set. But I'll also bet that if they do a second korea pack after this, that it will look more like FC vol. II where the majority of aircraft belong to one side. 

[BraveSirRobin]

9 hours ago, CountZero said:

It’s not just placing propeler on top insted forward ? 

They put the propeller on top and tell it to pretend that it’s also a wing.

 

[Dagwoodyt]

19 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

I think that helos (the Bell 47 especially) are iconically associated with Korea strongly enough that having them in the sim would be highly worthwhile. Especially with the stated game features of walking/swimming and boarding/exiting aircraft, having the ability to fly a helo on SAR flights or medivac could make for very solid gameplay in both SP and MP. Especially as they are making a new engine for this sim, this is a great time to be able to integrate the new physics and controls needed, and if they do go to the CBI/Pacific after this, putting in the YB-4A would be a very cool and unique feature not seen in WWII sims before. 

Difficult to believe the developers didn't anticipate being asked to include the Bell 47 in there new product. If they cannot support helos it might have been best to acknowledge that and pre-empt the back and forth.

[AndyJWest]

I'm sure the developers have better things to do with their time than to compile lists of things they aren't going to do.

[Dagwoodyt]

39 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

I'm sure the developers have better things to do with their time than to compile lists of things they aren't going to do.

WRT helos, now is still available.

[Jram117]

I personally think helicopters would be a great addition to the game. When someone says what comes to mind about the Korean War, MASH comes to mind and those medevac helicopters. I think later in the pipeline would be just fine. I don't think you can make a Korean flight sim without the acknowledgment of helicopters at all. And that wishing people to fail is just childish. I think having missions for medevac would be fun and challenging along with carrier-born pilot recovery. Also, there could be a mission where you are a CAP and need to protect a medevac flight.

[Aapje]

21 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Again, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I'm advocating for helos after or in parallel with carriers, especially since they've said already that they want to do carriers.

 

They do actually have limited developer hours and can't do everything.

[migmadmarine]

Yes, but if this is to be a 10-15 year lifespan project, this would be a perfectly acceptable expenditure of man hours. Helos would be a project, sure but never one that kills off the prospect of any future development (especially if they, as soon as the core functionality works, hand off a large portion of the effort of a 3rd party dev.) 

[Avimimus]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:09 AM, CountZero said:

Its not just placing propeler on top insted forward ?

 

See the video in the spoiler - This is without taking into account forces on the blades themselves (the blades flex) and the fluid dynamic at all points along the blades (which effectively sweep forward and backward 180 degrees every time they go around - and are encountering the wind as they do so), and this is also without dealing with turbulent interactions and things like vortex ring states (where the blades encounter the same air twice):

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Aapje]

20 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Yes, but if this is to be a 10-15 year lifespan project, this would be a perfectly acceptable expenditure of man hours.

 

In your opinion. I think that relatively few people would use them and the effort would be rather large.

[Avimimus]

Okay. Helicopters are complicated to program, helicopters were unarmed (so transport, recon, and medivac are the only options). Some people would prefer other areas are prioritised. The point has been made. Multiple times. We all get the point. It doesn't need to be made again.

 

Now let the rotorheads dream!

 

Moving forward I'll be hiding any post which exists purely to dampen those dreams.

[Aapje]

6 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Moving forward I'll be hiding any post which exists purely to dampen those dreams.

 

I think that this is unreasonable if posts arguing that the devs should put effort into this, are allowed. Because then others are not allowed to respond to that and the topiic would effectively become a propaganda topic that only allows one opinion.

 

So if you hide those posts, the pro-heli posters should stick to just talking about what heli's/missions they want, and stuff like that, and otherwise you should hide their posts too.

[Dagwoodyt]

If even AI helicopters are too far out of the developers' wheelhouse that's disappointing. I guess a reality check was inevitable though.🙁
 

[Hook_Echo]

Helicopters are fun. The rest of you are sticks in the mud.

[Aapje]

No, the helicopter is stuck in the mud.

 

 

[migmadmarine]

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/Whirlybirds US Marine Helicopters in Korea PCN 19000410500.pdf

 

Been reading up on helo use in Korea, and recommend this book for those curious, looks like a wider set of mission types than you might think. Besides the widely known medivac flights, there are descriptions of rescues of pilots from the sea as well as up to 100 miles behind enemy lines, liaison duties transporting officers and messages, delivery of ammunition and fuel to stranded troops (especially around Chosun), heavier transport and troop insertions once the H-19 was introduced, scouting flights, artillery fire direction, and laying telephone cable. 

 

So while there wouldn't be opportunities to shoot targets from a help, it seems like there could be plenty of exciting gameplay surrounding nap of the earth navigation, evasion of enemy troops, and ill-equipped night flying (several examples of helo pilots holding flashlights between their knees to see the instruments while mounting a rescue. 

[Lusekofte]

If they did make a decent chopper I would buy this new thing. But I simply do not trust them enough to pre buy it. Better not make it if it fly like msfs heli’s or worse. 
People are right, it would be costly both economical and time to make them worth while flying. 
Another thing is , the concept they do is aerial war simulation, not flight simulation. 
It would add a bit more substance making logistics more important. 

[Talisman]

US Sikorsky H-34 transport helicopters leapfrog behind enemy lines carrying troops, rocket launchers and supplies in Korea

 

Just the sort of new flying opportunities offered with Korea.

It is not all about Migs and Sabres by a long chalk.

Also, lots of new dynamic gameplay could be on offer to support the ground war that have not been provided by the IL-2 series yet.

I also think that DCS needs some competition on the helicopter front and IL-2 could cash in on that.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited July 17, 2024 by Talisman