Relatively new player to MP - Have been flying SP alot - Tips regarding a situation on a multiplayer server

[gemanuel1]

Hello!

 

I just wanted to throw this out there and see if anybody could give me some tips/tricks regarding this specific situation.

 

I have 1000s of hours on flying different sims but relatively new to flying multiplayer and versus other players in IL2.

 

The situation:

Me and two other mates where flying along the river Volga. We where all in 109 G2s and patrolling above a factory that the enemies surely was about to bomb. Three IL2s came in low over the river and we where at 3000-4000 meters. We dove down on the IL2s one at the time but quick enough i noticed that i lost my wingmen in the frenzy. I was focused on shooting down the IL2 whilst checking around me. I didnt notice the third IL2 that jumped one of my mates when he was chasing the 2nd IL2 low.

 

Me and the other mate climbed up to 3000-4000 meters and did the procedure once more on a hurricane and a Yak. While we where going up and down like yo yos i missed a squad of Yaks that flew in and the shot us both down.

 

In the first pass/situation:

We shot down the 3 IL2s but lost one 109. My mate was a bit dissappointed that no one had his six and i understand him. So my question here is: what do you think, follow him and tail him? Or perhaps one of us should have stayed up watching the others? 

The only issue with staying up and spotting. Is it only me or isnt it very difficult to spot targets like that? What settings do you have with sharpen etc?

 

In the second pass/situation:

We should have probably just left the area after the first engagement. All the enemy fighters scrambled after we shot down the IL2s..

 

So on an endnote: i see that there are errors in the making with the situation mentioned above but i would really appreciate some hints/tips how one could deal with it differently, how you would have done it instead and maybe how one could practice.

 

Thanks a lot

Best regards

Gem

[Aapje]

You don't take an airplane out of the fight to spot. That would mean reducing the odds and being unable to help when needed. It would also result in a large risk of losing each other when there are clouds or such.

 

Historically, each two-ship would have a designated leader and wing man, the latter being responsible for scanning behind and he would fly low and behind. It sounds like you never designated leaders, so the expectation of your mate to always have a wing man seems rather optimistic.

[gemanuel1]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

You don't take an airplane out of the fight to spot. That would mean reducing the odds and being unable to help when needed. It would also result in a large risk of losing each other when there are clouds or such.

 

Historically, each two-ship would have a designated leader and wing man, the latter being responsible for scanning behind and he would fly low and behind. It sounds like you never designated leaders, so the expectation of your mate to always have a wing man seems rather optimistic.

Thank you for the response. That makes sense. I mean if i stay higher i would be able to spot targets but exactly what you mention: i am to far away to react or maybe even spot the target.

 

Exactly, no roles where designated. So if i understand you correctly, the smartest thing in the situation above would have been to dive down together but that the wingman would have stayed around (in general) the leaders six. Maybe not six but stay close to him and protecting him. 

[gemanuel1]

Oh, lets say: you and one more or two people fly together in 109s. You have an objective to protect some factories, what do you do? Cover the area from what alt? Fly in formation? Circle or fly in straight lines?

 

If you see IL2s or contacts down low, do you all dive down?

 

I have read alot of guides but it would be really cool to get some other persons views, hints and tips.

[ITAF_Airone1989]

6 hours ago, gemanuel1 said:

Hello!

I just wanted to throw this out there and see if anybody could give me some tips/tricks regarding this specific situation.

 

That's the hardest part of the combat and it's really difficult even to explain. 

I will try to summarise our experiences, but this doesn't mean it's the best way to solve the problems: 

 

1) it's almost impossible to fly with more than one wingman. Not a big problem to stay in formation, but as soon as the fight begin you have to be focus on your target.. it's still possible to check another plane (first wingman) but no more than that...

That's why we fly in couple (leader+wingman), and when we are odd (3/5/7 pilots) one of us fly with no wingman...

It's better to know that nobody is going to help you than expected something that it's impossible to receive.

 

2) Once we spot an enemy the leader of the formation decided how to proceed, here a couple of common situations:

 

- 1 enemy Vs 2 of us

Trail formation (the wingman doesn't look for the target but keep his eyes on the leader until the last moment, distance 500m-1000m) and boom and zoom.

The leader will fire for sure, the wingman only if the target doesn't turn to tight.

As soon as the leader fired he has to say heading and altitude because probably the wingman get lost.

 

Now if you want to survive it's time to climb and run. 

Doing a second attack will be pretty risky, a third one almost a death sentence (especially when there are 50/60 players in the server) 

 

- 1 enemy Vs 4 of us

A couple do the same as before, while the other stay 2000m-3000m higher as cover.

The leader try to keep his eyes on the fight below while the wingman scan the sky for threats.

Since now we have a great number advantage, the lower couple can do more than 1 attack, but it's difficult to remain in contact so a good communication between the leaders is fundamental. 

 

 

- 2 enemies Vs 4 of us

Each couple pick a target, there will not be high cover so just one attack. 

 

Those are the most common situations, but a lot of things can happen...

- another enemy join the fight below unseen

- another German join the fight

- the high couple get attack

- the wingman lost his leader 

- the high leader lost the lower couple

- somebody get hit and you have to protect him

 

So, it's really hard to fight together. 

We started to train this situations a couple of years ago and still we do a lot of mistakes...

But when you do a great dogfight cooperating with your teammates is a beautiful experience.

 

Finally, you can use tackview to better understand what happened.

You will be surprise how many times the reality was different from what you thought. 

Here you can find some of our videos, are in Italian but show what I said before:

 

Min 1.30: since I don't see the enemy, my wingman take the lead and I follow him

 

Min 6.40: 1 enemy Vs 5 of us

 

(Then we did some mistakes.. 😅)

 

 

 

P.s.

If you stay too close to the target you want to protect you will be able to attack enemies just after they dropped theirs bombs...

Better to place yourself between the target and their airfield, more risky but useful...

 

 

Edited June 24, 2024 by ITAF_Airone1989

[von_Tom]

 

Solely from your description...

 

Flying as a 3 is harder than flying as a 2.  In terms of SA it is harder to track who is where especially if there are other aircraft around.  With just 2 it is far easier to check them and clear your own 6.

 

You can fly as a 3 but you have to practice it, so maybe you have 1 attacking with a pair defending, or however works for you.  Flying as a 2 means a relatively defensive mindset until you engage, then you have to be smart to fully commit to an attack but the instant that run is over, to switch to defensive then offensive again.

 

Losing so much height to attack IL2s is a recipe for disaster.  You have to do it, because you're defending a point, but you have to do it smart.  If any of you turned down low then you did it wrong.  You must keep your energy.  If that means making multiple attacks and even losing the kill then so be it.  The only guarantees for attacking IL2s are 1.  it will take longer to shoot them down than you think, and 2.  Whilst you're busy with that the marauding fighters will get you.

 

IL2s are a problem because they are so tough, and any overshoot is fraught with danger as they can reverse course and spray and pray, and even 1 cannon hit causes a lot of problems.  You are better off (IMO) of all attacking the same IL2 in high energy passes then go up.

 

If your mate got shot down by an IL2 he's in very good company but ultimately it's his fault for losing energy and not taking enough care.  They aren't sitting targets.

 

About missing enemies, again you're in good company.  Most pilots died from an enemy they never saw.  If you're flying as a 2 then height and speed are your friends.  Don't lose them and again if that means letting someone go that's ok.

 

Spotting extra stuff comes with practice too, and the more you fly the better it gets.  Some are great at it, some aren't, so you have to figure out how to fly together.

 

There are many fighter pilot rules out there, but 2 basic ones for multiplayer are:

 

1.  Height and speed above everything else.

 

2.  Never turn to death.

 

von Tom

 

 

[BOO]

What von-Tom said. In a 109 its all about energy and not loosing it. 

 

When it comes to over saturation when patrollng, an echelon pair, its pretty easy to watch each others 6 whilst the leader can still spot. With 3 or 4 its even easier as the leader doesnt need to worry about anything but spotting.  Whats imprtant is that each pilot knows his or her role and sticks to it.  The more distance you have between you, the more area you can cover and the earlier you can spot threats. 

 

Using a 90 degree level turn to patrol a CAP box also helps maintain situational awareness. Here the outside aircraft on the opposite to the direction of the turn goes first, as they cross the 6 of the next, he/she turns and so on until the formation is complete again. Doesnt have to be exactly ninety degrees but you just need to advance of delay the turns to compensate. 

 

Dependent on how hard core you feel, using the autolevel also reduces saturation. some mght turn their noses up but in 2D and without any feedback from your inner ears about motion, its an acceptable comprmise to me. 

 

Have some well practiced ACMs in your bag so that you know how things will happen when they happen. Control of the engagment is key. If you feel your loosing it, bug out. 

 

Finally dont let the leader wingman dynamic get mixed up with overly rigid roles. If the wingy gets someone on his six then their protection becomes the leader's priority no matter what was happening before (and this is where well practiced ACMs like the drag and bag come into their own as evey one knows what to do with minimal discussion). . 

[von_Tom]

 

I'll also make the point that the same applies to every single fighter when you're flying as a 2 or 3.  Edit:  Whenever you fly whether it is alone or in a squadron.  For example, if you're going to fly an I16, fly it as boom and zoom.  Same with a Spitfire, or Lagg, or P47 or whatever.

 

Don't get sucked into the "X plane is a turnfighter" as there is no such thing.  Some do a horiziontal turn better than others, but they usually lose out to speed and climb rate etc.

 

See rules 1 and 2 in my previous post.

 

von Tom

Edited June 25, 2024 by von_Tom

[gemanuel1]

Thanks a lot all of you!

 

I will read all of your replys over and over now 😊 and try to put it into practice. I will also fly some SP missions solely to practice spotting and keeping track of planes.

 

Cheers!

Gem

[gemanuel1]

Once again, thank you for your answers!

 

I tried yesterday just for learning to do everything wrong and against your tips. I dove down, bleed my energy and tried to get guns on the IL2s. They where good and knew exactly when to evade. They did not kill me but they had support from Yaks that where flying at 1000 meter watching out for them. Probably lurking for people like me who drain their energy without a situational awareness.

 

I did not make the mistake next round/flight when flying solo. I climbed to 4000 m over an objective and flew in straight lines on the whole but zigzaging for situational awareness. Saw the IL2s low but this time i spotted the Yaks. I dove on a Yak but overshoot. Then! Instead of circling or diving again i went up with all that speed and energy that i hade preserved. Another FW got the Yak so firstly then i dove down on a IL2. Got some good hits but saw other planes low. I then used my speed to get out there and i did not turn around to die. I did not have control over the situation. So i got back to base and landed but felt succesful. I didnt get the IL2 in the end but i had bounced two targets, got some hits on one of them and made my way back home.

 

The next sortie i spawned on an airfield further back. Climbed up to 4000-5000 meters and patrolled behind the frontline. I could see anything because i was so high up so i dove down and then in clouds with my speed and constantly checking six. After 5 min closer to an objective i saw it. A Yak that seemed oblivious and alone. I dove down with all that speed and fixed the adjustable stabilizer until he was filling my entire sight. Pulled the trigger and down he went ablaze. I pushed the engine to much so it got damaged in the process but flew straight to base with a kill. My legs where shaking but it was a really satisfying feeling.

 

Now! To the last sortie: and here i want to check with you your opinion/opinions on it. It was late so not that many players on the server. I took a FW A3 for free hunt. Took off and when i was climbing there was an enemy at the airfield i just took of from. I circled and couldnt see any planes. Not close or far or high up. So i kept the speed but also went up and down to see if i could spot him. No fighter in sight.. So i flew where i thought he might go but couldnt see or find anyone. After flying for 15 minutes at 4000 m i started to get worried. I flew close to their AF to see if i could find anyone close to it or anything. Flak started appearing and i then understood: hmm, now everyone can see me. I continued back to our lines and got a bad feeling. During the entire flight i was checking six and zigzagging once in a while but this time, there was a Yak there. He was only 100 meters behind me so i did a split S, boosted the engine and tried to outspeed while i was rolling. He didnt move one inch, probably a very good shot so he got me but i succesfully bailed.

 

What would you have done in that situation? I understand that errors lead to him being on my six and that i really couldnt do much more then defensive flying after that. He must have tailed me forever to get up to that alt and speed. I was flying 500-600 keeping the speed at all time. 

 

How do you free hunt if your alone? Or more so, how do you counter all the russian fighters staying low and then either waiting for you to go down or they tail you forever til you make a turn or something and then strike.

 

Cheers!

Best regards

Gem

[ITAF_Airone1989]

9 hours ago, gemanuel1 said:

How do you free hunt if your alone? Or more so, how do you counter all the russian fighters staying low and then either waiting for you to go down or they tail you forever til you make a turn or something and then strike.

 

First, you learned fast... great job!

 

Seems that you simply saw the Yak too late, basically you had no chance there. 

Hunting solo is really dangerous (and could be boring), that's why I try to avoid it...

But if I have to do, I will flying looking backward 85% of the time. 

 

-) No autolevel, but neither swing to much your wings (it will be easier to spot you)

 

-) Avoid to get closer than 10km from enemy airfield or they will be alarmed

 

-) The most dangerous zone to be it's between 500m/2.5k. Here it's pretty easy for an unseen enemy to turn behind you and pull up for a shot, even if he's not fast enough to catch you he still can fire with a good accuracy.

So, if you are in this situation you have to options:

--- climb with a gently turn on the left (109 climb better in that direction) and constantly check inside your turn to check nobody is following you/diving on you

--- hit the deck (not literally, but fly below the trees level) so it will be easier for you to see enemy at your level and will be difficult for them to dive on you at a great speed cause they have no space below you

 

-) Staying between 4k/5k it's the safer option, it's difficult that somebody will be higher than you and who is lower need to climb a lot to catch you -> it will be easier to spot them cause you will have plenty of time and they cannot hide on the ground 

Still you will have the problem that spot prey will be not so easy, but here some tricks:

--- check your graphics settings, a lower resolution + low Antialiasing will help (check on the forum for further instructions)

--- winter map (with snow) will let you spot a fighter on the deck while you are at +7k

--- water zone (plenty of them on Kuban) will help too

 

Look back and be safe