TA-152 AI very slow maneuvering responses at lower altitudes

[Aleksander55]

I don't own the plane.

TA152-Inverts-To-Death.rar

 

I tested it yesterday with 30% fuel in many dogfight quickmissions. Always starting at 4000 meters.

 

I noticed it carries 995 liters of fuel and got it down to 20%. This is the first attempt I made with that fuel load and I'm surprised it happened right away in the first one. It's not a barrel roll to death but it's similar to what happens many times, they get 'locked' in the inverted position for a long time and almost crashed many times.

 

It's the very slow roll rate that's the problem. It certainly can carry speed, if it didn't make so many 'mistakes' due to the roll rate I would need much more time and patience to get close to it. It'd be like fighting a bit slower 262.

 

They are better in 1v4:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BDMOXNm-jYzPSvEQA2f-D5xBazFQjUxo?usp=sharing

skirmish.2024-06-19_06-27-43_00B.rar

 

I don't remember if I gave them 30 or 40% fuel. By comparisson it got much harder to 1 v 4 109s since the ultra-aiming update 💀. They are resistant, I could only send 2 of them damaged back to base and shoot down 2.

 

Like other planes they are much more agressive in recovering from dives and coming back at the player if they have numerical superiority, so I guess in more realistic situations like furballs they probably have better behavior.

[=TU=flynvrtd]

The gyro is reversed and does not show roll. 

The fuel indication does not reflect fuel burn. 

I flew a long online mission starting with 70% and never saw the fuel indicator drop.

The pitch axis seems unstable/ sensitive.

At full power/top speed with FULL NOSE DOWN trim, the nose will still rise. 

Outer wing panels seem way too fragile for a "combat" plane. Wings break off easily with minor damage or even no damage. 

Ailerons depart easily.

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by =TU=flynvrtd

[LukeFF]

A large majority of the fuel is carried in the wings and so won't be shown on the fuel gauge because that's for the fuselage tanks. 

 

The artificial horizon has already been noted elsewhere as being on the to-fix list. 

[Mandoble]

Did the following tests, all at 1500m, every plane with 33% of fuel (AI always ACE):

190D9 vs AI TA152: D9 won so quickly that the Ta had no time to do anything significative.

190A8 vs AI TA152: The TA was trying to extend, but not enough, was trying to outclimb, but, again, not enough, was trying to outturn, but it was a draw. A8 won in near HO snapshot passes.

109G14 vs AI TA152: 109 won after first turn literally in seconds. The TA decided to turn 180 degs and them climb to follow the initial zoom climb of the 109, the 109 descended and climbed just at the 6 of the TA and less than 200m. The TA was neither able to plan an attack nor any denfense.

109F1 vs AI TA152: After the merge the TA tried to turn with the 109, in half of a turn the TA was burning and going down.

P40 vs AI TA152: The TA, again, tried to turn with the P40, but this time the radius of the turn was long enough as to have the P40 out of guns range, the TA tried to extend few times gaining a bit of alt over the P40 to turn again and try a HO, but was never able to do it in time to have the P40 centered in sight, that was enough to give the P40 few changes of snapshots and the TA ended bailing out with the engine damaged and stopped.

P47D vs AI TA152: The longest fight. The TA was again, trying to turn with the P47, then extending a bit, then coming back, never resulted in a menace, but every time it was coming back it as pinged until it catched fire.

P51D vs AI TA152: After the merge the TA tried to turn with the P51, in half of a turn the TA was going down in flames.

Spit IX vs AI TA152: same as with vs P51D but even faster.

Spit V vs AI TA152: Again trying to turnfight against the Spit. It took two turns to get in range of the TA and kill it.

109K vs AI TA152: the TA turned after the merge and tried to follow the K after its initial zoom climb, stalled out and found the K at its six and quite close. Since then it was just a matter of time to hit it with the horrible mk108 ballistics.

 

So it looks like the TA AI doesn't take into consideration neither its capabilities nor the capabilities of the enemy. When it extends to turn back, it was never enough for the Ta to reach a chance of HO. When it decices to try to outclimb, again, it turned back too soon. It never tried to dive away. It never tried an spiral climb. It never tried any high speed turn. When I put my plane on purpose at its 12 the Ta was not able to follow very soft scissors.

 

AI TA at 1500m is absolutely incompetent.

 

EDIT:

P39J vs AI TA152: recording attached, it took just few seconds to get the upper hand and kill it.

 

P38J vs TA152H1.zip

Edited June 24, 2024 by Mandoble

[Mandoble]

AI Ace TA 152 vs I16

It looks like the vertical plane is a missing dimension for the AI of the TA.

Two tests, and in both cases the I16 dominated the fight quickly and finsihed the Ta, attached the latest fight.

 

I16 vs ACE Ta152 2.zip

[Mandoble]

I bought the plane and now I can understand, partially, why the AI is so bad with it at low altitudes. Tested at 1500 and 2000m and the plane is simply terrible. Slightly better than D9 in turn rate (it can keep turning slowly at 230kph but it loses speed in turns really really fast), but clearly worse acceleration, climb, dive, top speed and roll rate. Tested vs Spit XIV and 109K, and the Ta was a toy for them to play with, they can extend at will, approach at will, outclimb me and outturn me (while not quickly at all). I guess this plane is exclusively for very high altitude fights.

[Hanu]

I think Ta-152 should be used exclusively as an opponent.

[III/JG52_Supongo]

Have you started to think that the Ta 152 H is for very high altitudes and that its role is not turning combat?

 

Regards

 

Supongo

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

1.5-2 km is right in its supercharger gap, have you tried sub 1km? I haven't messed with it much yet.

[Panthera]

I haven't bought the module, however looking at the spec sheets something that immediately strikes me as very strange is the games stalling speeds with and without gear & flaps down for the aircraft.

 

Ta-152H Stalling speeds in IL2

170-192 km/h flaps & gear up

156-178 km/h flaps & gear down

 

Compare that to the Fw190D9:

 

Fw190D9 Stalling speeds in IL2

174-197 km/h flaps & gear up

160-181 km/h flaps & gear down

 

That's a difference of on average just 4-5 km/h, whilst the Ta-152H should be enjoying significantly lower stalling speeds thanks to not only a lower wing loading, but also due to an increase in lift coefficient thanks to a much higher aspect ratio wing. The entire point of that high AR wing design was to provide more lift for less drag, so that the aircraft could actually stay aloft and maneuver at very high altitudes where the air is much thinner. The benefits of such a wing are as pronounced down low ofcourse, with FW documents also revealing the following:

1) The Ta-152H's high AR wing allowed it to shave a good 70 meters (!) off of the D9's take off run, despite weighing considerably more than the D9. (The Ta-152H's take off run was a mere 295 m vs 365 m of the D9)

2) The Ta-152H's wing, flaps & gear up, generated a .12 increase in Clmax over the 190's wing. 

 

 

 

 

Therefore based on the games spec sheet for the aircraft, as well as the words of other people in the above posts, it appears pretty clear that IL2's representation of the Ta-152H is not enjoying any of the real aircraft's advantages in Cdi (lift induced drag) & Clmax (Lift coefficient). 

 

It should realistically be one of the best turning late war aircraft.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Panthera

[gabuzomeu]

Re stalling speed, wouldn’t the total or empty weight be part of explanation. 
(I do not have the figure for ta 152 in game)

[[TFA]Bartek_Smok]

Try to repeat that duel of Ta152 and Tempest in this game

[Mandoble]

12 hours ago, [TFA]Bartek_Smok said:

Try to repeat that duel of Ta152 and Tempest in this game

Eventually pilot quality related. The Tempest should easily dominate the Ta at low level in every aspect. Anyway the sentence "in a fight, which was never to climb above 50m" makes me think that might be both groups were already too slow when engaged, else I don't understand.

[[TFA]Bartek_Smok]

Wouldn't say that in 1945 allies sent to fight not well trained pilots.
 

Quoted sentence means that, at this time alies domination was that big, that luftwaffe was unable to climb after take off. Reschke says us, that Ta152 was anable to deal with Tempest even after take off due to his agaile.

[Mandoble]

12 minutes ago, [TFA]Bartek_Smok said:

Wouldn't say that in 1945 allies sent to fight not well trained pilots.
 

Quoted sentence means that, at this time alies domination was that big, that luftwaffe was unable to climb after take off. Reschke says us, that Ta152 was anable to deal with Tempest even after take off due to his agaile.

But well trained doesn't mean with any aerial combat experience at all. In some cases, well trained pilots ran out of luck and were facing real ACEs. The text indicates that the Tempest group was found immediately after the take off and probably it was the first time the Tempest pilots found Ta fighters, not knowing anything about their performance. Might be Tempest pilots were thinking that the new fighter could outran them or outclimb them or outturn them easily, when it was quite the opposite. And more than probably it was the very first time that Owen had a dogfight.

[[TFA]Bartek_Smok]

Reschke statement says that Tempest was unable to shakes him from tail. Do You think that knowledge about types of planes has influence on that? Or rather just one airplane was more agile than other? I don't think so that you need to be a top gun ace to make turns well with your plane.

[Mandoble]

2 hours ago, [TFA]Bartek_Smok said:

Reschke statement says that Tempest was unable to shakes him from tail. Do You think that knowledge about types of planes has influence on that? Or rather just one airplane was more agile than other? I don't think so that you need to be a top gun ace to make turns well with your plane.

It is not just a matter of turning well, but a matter of keeping calm and knowing what to do. If you read the other side reports, the Tempests were in a ground combat mission, carrying drop tanks. They dropped the tanks as soon as they noticed the german group, but more than problably they were still fully load with internal fuel. The Tas, which just took off from their base to intercept the Tempests 8km away, could be light on fuel and that alone could explain the advantage in turning.

 

BTW, have a look at this for a deeper study of that encounter.

[Eisenfaustus]

On 6/27/2024 at 3:49 AM, Panthera said:

 

1) The Ta-152H's high AR wing allowed it to shave a good 70 meters (!) off of the D9's take off run, despite weighing considerably more than the D9. (The Ta-152H's take off run was a mere 295 m vs 365 m of the D9)

2) The Ta-152H's wing, flaps & gear up, generated a .12 increase in Clmax over the 190's wing. 

 

 

 

 

Therefore based on the games spec sheet for the aircraft, as well as the words of other people in the above posts, it appears pretty clear that IL2's representation of the Ta-152H is not enjoying any of the real aircraft's advantages in Cdi (lift induced drag) & Clmax (Lift coefficient). 

 

It should realistically be one of the best turning late war aircraft.

The documents you mentioned - are they about the H-0 or the H-1?

The H-0 has the same fuel capacity as the D-9 - but the H-1 has basically doubled capacity meaning that with full tanks it carries roughly half a ton of additional weight around which adds onto it‘s already heavier fuselage. 
I‘m no aviation engineer but couldn’t this be a reasonable explanation?

How did the D-9 takeoff run and stall speed change with a 500kg bomb attached?

[kraut1]

I flew only 1 Ta152-H test mission. A mixed quick mission over Wiesbaden / Mainz:

4x Ta152 (I as player)

4xBF109-K4

vs

4xHawker Tempest

4xP51-D

-all plane fuel 100% and normal AI level.

-with realistic settings

-TA152 with gyro sight

-Head on encounter, altitude 500m

 

-Was an interesting air combat

-In a low/medium speed low altitude dog fight it was not easy but possible (normal AI level) to follow the Tempests and the Mustangs without using flaps.

-with combat power for tight turns and with emergency power / MW50 to close in in straight flight / climbing.

 

I know that this is not an systematic test procedure but the result was okay for me. The enemies were not stupid and I had to care to avoid stalling in the tight turns. And the other Ta152s did not suffer high casulties.

The Gyro sight was not helpful for me, I prefer a primitive fixed one.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2024 by kraut1

[ITAF_Rani]

Online there' s sameone who know how to drive this bird....

 

 

[Panthera]

On 6/28/2024 at 12:06 PM, Mandoble said:

Eventually pilot quality related. The Tempest should easily dominate the Ta at low level in every aspect. Anyway the sentence "in a fight, which was never to climb above 50m" makes me think that might be both groups were already too slow when engaged, else I don't understand.

 

No the Ta-152H should definitely do noticably better in a turn fight than the Tempest.

[Holtzauge]

9 hours ago, ITAF_Rani said:

Online there' s sameone who know how to drive this bird....

 

 

 

I have only the greatest respect for those who become top dog in multiplayer doing these kinds of feats. I realize it takes a lot of practice and skill to get to this level and I could never do it myself. But really: Full power, full flap maneuvering and even extending the gear to slow down? This is gaming the game and has nothing to do with real air combat.  I watched that video from about 4:30 to the finale when he bags the Spitfire at 6:55. Really amazing what you can do with these planes in-game. But also a stark reminder that flight model realism at low speeds still has a long way to go.

[Panthera]

On 7/2/2024 at 7:44 AM, Eisenfaustus said:

The documents you mentioned - are they about the H-0 or the H-1?

The H-0 has the same fuel capacity as the D-9 - but the H-1 has basically doubled capacity meaning that with full tanks it carries roughly half a ton of additional weight around which adds onto it‘s already heavier fuselage. 
I‘m no aviation engineer but couldn’t this be a reasonable explanation?

How did the D-9 takeoff run and stall speed change with a 500kg bomb attached?

 

H-1 with half fuel load, so 4,760 kg total weight. 

Edited July 3, 2024 by Panthera

[Mandoble]

6 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

No the Ta-152H should definitely do noticably better in a turn fight than the Tempest.

For sure it is not noticeably better in the sim, if anything, similar for pure flat turns at low altitude. But the Tempest outaccelerates, outclimbs and outruns the Ta at low alt, so, it should dominate the fight. Probably this was not the case in the Reschke enounter for six factors:

- The Tempests were attacking a train station, probably configured as attack planes with bomb racks, etc.

- The Tempests were straffing ground targets flying very low while the Tas dived on them with speed advantage.

- The Tempests dropped their external fuel tanks after noticing the Tas, more than probably they were with the internal fuel tanks full.

- The Tas were ordered to scramble and intercept the Tempests, more than probably with low fuel load.

- There were two Tempests vs 3 Tas, one of the Tas crashed or was hit, yet the second Tempest was able to flee away.

 

Now, back to rough numbers. While the Ta wingspan is larger, 14.44m vs 12.5m of the Tempest, the Ta wing area is way smaller, 23.5m2 vs 28.1m2. If you take into consideration the normal gross weights (5217 kg for the Ta vs 5221 kg for the Tempest) the result is that the wingload of the Tempest in normal configuration is way lower (222 Kg/m2 Ta vs 186 Kg/m2 Tempest).  So, normally, the Tempest should outturn the Ta with ease. But if you add the above Reschke encounter factors, things would be quite different. Might be Tas took off well under 5000kg while Tempests were well above 5000kg.

 

So, I don't know from where you conclude that the Ta should be noticeably better than the Tempest in any turn fight.

[Duckman]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:29 PM, Holtzauge said:

I have only the greatest respect for those who become top dog in multiplayer doing these kinds of feats. I realize it takes a lot of practice and skill to get to this level and I could never do it myself. But really: Full power, full flap maneuvering and even extending the gear to slow down? This is gaming the game and has nothing to do with real air combat. 

 

Exactly, this is what remains when you remove all tactical considerations and teamwork from air combat. Kind of like an extreme sport, and yes of course with its own set of skills (although it looks like a fairly traditional rolling scissors, with some extreme ingedients; I think I even saw an intentional spin).  

 

Today's sims do a lot of things well but there is a tendency for them to turn into pre-1916 one vs ones, partly because of the simmers and partly because they still do some things (like graphics and flight controls) better than the bigger tactical stuff I guess. On the bright side it means there's still a place for air to air boardgames.

[[CPT]Crunch]

You can do that kind of stuff when there's not much of, or even no flight envelope to violate.  

[Duckman]

23 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

You can do that kind of stuff when there's not much of, or even no flight envelope to violate.  

 

What are the main issues? Low speed handling and nose pointing ability too good? Should they stall out and crash?

[[CPT]Crunch]

You mean it's not self evident?  Most eight year olds posses the ability to fly maximum performance sorties without a hitch their first go in most of this games "high performance" fighters.