Western front bomb loadouts for the A20

[Stonehouse]

I think this has been raised previously but wanted to raise it again for the following reasons:

• The A20 is the only available flyable level bomber for the Allied side suitable for use on the Normandy and Rhineland maps. It is both incorrect historically and from a player immersion point of view to use VVS bombs on these maps.
• I believe it would be fairly inexpensive in time and money to add this feature to the game as most of the graphical assets are already in game and the remainder is adding new modification choices to the A20B - which I assume is normal everyday type task for the dev team. I don't believe any special handling by country id is needed as is done for tactical codes.

 

My suggestion is that:

• A new bomb is created to give the game the US 250lb AN-M57
• Create 2 new USAAF modifications, one for 20 M57s and one for 4 M64s (consisting of two sub choices of 4 M64 or 8 M57 plus 4 M64) - this gives the USAAF equivalent of the VVS loadouts
• Do the same as the above for the RAF but using the GP250lb and GP500lb bombs.

 

The mission builder or player would simply choose the appropriate modification to suit the use case, no special handling required to filter loadout choices by country. 

 

If the AN-M57 is added, then a similar approach could be taken with the P39 and P40 to provide western front loadouts to allow their use on the Normandy map to allow players to create circa 1942 missions with these aircraft using correct loadouts.

Edited April 3, 2024 by Stonehouse

[LukeFF]

Well, there are two other issues here: (1) the bombsight is a Soviet one, not American and (2) the cockpit interior has a number of Soviet modifications. Not that I don't want to see a true RAF or USAAF A-20 on the Western Front maps, but it's also more work than just changing the bomb loadouts. 

That's to say nothing of the fact that for 1944 scenarios the B model is entirely irrelevant to USAAF and RAF operations. The oldest model in service by then would have been the C.

[Dusty926]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Well, there are two other issues here: (1) the bombsight is a Soviet one, not American and (2) the cockpit interior has a number of Soviet modifications. Not that I don't want to see a true RAF or USAAF A-20 on the Western Front maps, but it's also more work than just changing the bomb loadouts. 

That's to say nothing of the fact that for 1944 scenarios the B model is entirely irrelevant to USAAF and RAF operations. The oldest model in service by then would have been the C.

These are both true, however ultimately the main concern is thematic/loadout consistency. Until a B-25 or -26 collector exists, the A-20 is the literal only bomber even remotely applicable to western front activities. Anachronism in the cockpit aside, the plane itself is far more relevant to western front activities than the Pe-2, a far more obviously Russian bomber..

On the second point, many missions and mission generators use the A-20 for Normandy/Bodenplatte operations, specifically to give bomber players something to play on those fronts. It's already being very commonly used for it, even if the specific make is inaccurate. As well, multiple nations' bombs are supported on the Hurricane collector plane, despite certain models of it being irrelevant to specific modules. 

You're right that making an accurate western front A-20 is more work than just changing the bomb layouts - However, I really do think that isn't necessary. It's a minor but pleasant change that would make using the A-20 on those modules feel more fitting, and therefor more immersive. As well as give a certain consistency in ground attack loadouts from plane to plane in the relevant modules.

Again, I understand the shyness considering there'd still be some anachronism at play, but I really do think that the bombs are the biggest and most easily solved sticker, without just making a whole new later A-20.

Edited April 3, 2024 by Dusty926

[Stonehouse]

11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Well, there are two other issues here: (1) the bombsight is a Soviet one, not American and (2) the cockpit interior has a number of Soviet modifications. Not that I don't want to see a true RAF or USAAF A-20 on the Western Front maps, but it's also more work than just changing the bomb loadouts. 

That's to say nothing of the fact that for 1944 scenarios the B model is entirely irrelevant to USAAF and RAF operations. The oldest model in service by then would have been the C.

 

Luke, I agree completely with what you say but...if we say the A20B we do have is no good for Normandy and Rhineland then we have no flyable western Allied level bomber at all.

 

Even if we did have the right model of A20 it would be the A20G which also was not a level bomber but really more a heavy ground attack aircraft like the A26 Invader.

 

So we have to use what we have. However, having a few choices to make the A20 a better fit would be good especially if it wasn't too hard to achieve as I do know how busy the dev team is.

 

The other thing though is the Normandy map - based on the airfields we have I've always assumed the dev team had in mind that the map should cover more than a single time period. I say this because we have airfields depicted as active major bases in game which in fact were no longer in use by 1944 and D-Day but ones that were built in late 1943 early 1944 further from the coast are not in game.

 

A lot of the coastal fields we have were either were by D-Day dummy fields hiding flak traps (eg Berck sur Mer until it was mined and abandoned in late Feb 1944 I believe) or deliberately ruined by the Germans (eg Dieppe Saint Aubin, abandoned and demolished Mar 1944 and entrenched Apr 1944, Abbeville Drucat, runways mined in Mar 1944 and mines detonated late May 1944, completely abandoned Aug 1944, Triqueville is another such as are the two airfields we have at Calais and there are quite a few more). Only a very few of the airfields in easy reach of the coast were kept until late 1943/early 1944 as staging airfields or emergency strips.

 

Long story short - due to the inclusion of these early war bases I had always assumed the intention for us was to build 1941-43 missions over the channel as well as D-Day ones. In this case the A20B (admittedly sans Soviet changes) does fit well. As does the Spitfire VB, P51B, P39L, Bf109Fs and early Gs, He111H16s etc. Why else do we have RAF official skins for the A20B if not for this scenario?

Edited April 4, 2024 by Stonehouse

[LukeFF]

Yes, it is a bit complex, I agree. ? I can tell you that when researching airfields for the Normandy map the idea was to locate airfields that were extant in 1944 in one way or the other - hence why the early version has none of the forward airstrips but the latter one does. It's also why Manston looks like it did in 1944 and not before this time. 

 

With the German side, yes, it was indeed difficult, with so many of their best and well-equipped airstrips out of service by early 1944. On the one hand yes, most of them were abandoned by then, on the other hand, it would look strange to not have them on the map at all. Plus, there is the added benefit of them standing in for airfields occupied by for instance JG 26 and JG 2 farther inland. So yes, not an entirely clear situation, that I fully admit. ?

 

When it comes to the A-20, the bottom line is that it was sold as a plane configured for the Battle of Kuban and not for Western Front battles (the Spitfire Vb we have is also anachronistic in many ways for 1944 battles because again, it was modeled exclusively in its export form). Believe me, I hear you on the desire to make changes to the B model to make it look as it did in the West, but I also know the team would also want to do such a project right and not just add RAF and US bombs to it and call it good. Even the Hurricane, when it's fitted with RAF armament, has no traces of Soviet mods, outside of the stock cockpit picture. ?

 

So yes, that's a long way of saying I agree with you in a lot of your points, but I'm just not sure how likely a project like this is at this point.

[Enceladus828]

Are there any plans to add the A-20G?

[LukeFF]

10 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

Are there any plans to add the A-20G?

 

Not at this time

[kraut1]

What about the French A20s (DB-7), that were used at the end of the battle of France 1940. Did any of them escape to Great Britain or maybe North Africa and were they used later too?

Later added: I was maybe a bit to general and unprecise, what I mean is: Is our IL2 GB A20 maybe very similar to the french DB-7 (apart from the french 7.5mm machine guns)?

Aand if yes, were the french A20/DB-7 later in the war still used?

Edited April 6, 2024 by kraut1

[kraut1]

Hi @Stonehouse,

It is possible to use American / UK bombs for the US/Russian planes A20, P39 and P40.

But the US Bombs are about 20..30cm rear of the correct bomb holder position. With this deviation the planes are still flyable.

The position of the bombs could be changed only by a modification of the planes files what makes the planes to a non-flyable AI planes.

The UK bombs I have not checked.

 

[Stonehouse]

Yeah I realised there were some small visual glitches due to differences in the bomb attachment points. Unfortunately, not much to be done unless as you say you treat the aircraft as AI only.