Odessa speculations (research, aircraft, discussions etc.)

[Juri_JS]

On 3/30/2024 at 1:48 PM, Avimimus said:

By the way. Axis seaplanes and floatplanes were operating in this area. Many were based on Constanza, but there was a refuelling station in Sevastopol (and it was upgraded to act as a fully float-plane base for about five months)... so Ar-196 and Bv-138 are theoretically possible (given that float-plane physics were already created for Rise of Flight).

 

Likely? No! But still interesting to daydream about.

It's unlikely that Constanza will be on the map. But the Black Sea Fleet used the MBR-2 flying boat in the Odessa area.

Edited April 1, 2024 by Juri_JS

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Juri_JS said:

It's unlikely that Constanza will be on the map. But the Black Sea Fleet used the MBR-2 flying boat in the Odessa area.

 

Ah, yes. I just mentioned Constanza because my initial research suggested it was one of the largest seaplane bases. There may have been others which are closer (and we don't know the exact dimensions of the map yet).

 

My point was that Axis seaplanes were widely used in the western Black Sea during this period and were stationed as far east as Sevastopol (although more frequently stationed along the western coast). So they would be a viable, if unlikely, addition.

 

I always thought a little Ar-196 would be fun for reconnaissance, liaison, and artillery spotting... you get 2xSC50 bombs and two 20mm MG-FF cannons (similar to a Bf-109E4), plus a rear gunner (that could be upgraded to have an MG-81Z)! It'd be fun. It would also be useable on Rhineland (and possibly Normandy) as they conducted ASW patrols on these maps. They might have occasionally been used on the Kuban map as well (eastern Black Sea).

 

The Arado wouldn't have the STOLL performance of the Fi-156, and it wouldn't be usable on all of the maps (which the Fi-156 would be)... but it'd be able to land in some interesting places and have more firepower.

 

The third alternative spotter, the Fw-189, would also probably work for the early Odessa campaign, as well as the latter part of Moscow, Stalingrad (and even Kursk!)... it would be a really iconic aircraft to intercept, was apparently a joy to fly (according to allied test pilots), and could have two MG-81Z defensive gunner positions... as well as up to 4xSC-50 (but no forward firing cannons).

 

Any of these would be cool to have as an artillery spotter... and probably a case for including any of them in Odessa could be found.

 

Note: The Bv-138 (and some Dornier seaplanes) were also operational in the area... but they'd likely require too much work to model. Hence why I discussed the Ar-196 and then drifted into discussing other observation/spotter aircraft.

 

Edit 1: While looking at unit histories to try to jog my memory, I discovered reports of several Fw-189 lost at Kursk - so they were still in service later than previous research had suggested! Apparently the last operation with the Fw-189 conducted by 1.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 21 was under Stab/NAGr.9 - flying as night bombers covering the retreat from Odessa! So it could be used in the second campaign (as a counterpart to the U-2VS)!

 

Edit 2: 2./Aufklärungsgruppe 125 (2d Formation) was stationed at 'Akkerman' - about 50 km from Odessa itself.

[Avimimus]

By the way - not exactly an aircraft, but does anyone think we might get a Regele Ferdinand class or Vifor class destroyer as an AI object? They were used in operations off Odessa. What do you think?

 

At 1750 tons, fast, a strong anti-aircraft armament 1x88mm, 2x37-40mm, 4x20mm (quad mount), 2x13.2mm (post-refit Regele Ferdinand class) or 4x76mm and 2x6.5mm (Vifor class)... could give the allies an interesting target.

 

[Enceladus828]

I hope we do get one of them, this game is quite lacking in ships with the largest non-supply ship being a Gleaves-class destroyer. The largest Axis ship we have is a Type II  submarine ?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I would love a P-40 F, K, or N! The latter two may fit.

[Sandmarken]

19 hours ago, Avimimus said:

By the way - not exactly an aircraft, but does anyone think we might get a Regele Ferdinand class or Vifor class destroyer as an AI object? They were used in operations off Odessa. What do you think?

 

At 1750 tons, fast, a strong anti-aircraft armament 1x88mm, 2x37-40mm, 4x20mm (quad mount), 2x13.2mm (post-refit Regele Ferdinand class) or 4x76mm and 2x6.5mm (Vifor class)... could give the allies an interesting target.

 

We have a soviet and allied destroyer. It woud sure be nice to have a german one also. The kuban map coud also need a romanian one ? and when speaking about things the axis miss german infantry!! Ah why coud that be so hard, when we do have a us and brit one!

[Avimimus]

Well, the only Axis destroyers in the Black Sea were Italian built Romanian designs mentioned... so a German destroyer is very unlikely still.

 

It would be pretty cool if the Odessa team could talk them into adding some more infantry (and maybe a PTRD?) into the sim though! We do have a German landing craft after all... so I don't see why it is that different from Normandy.

 

P.S. Alas, unless a third party steps up we'll probably not see infantry/horse objects for Flying Circus (like Rise of Flight received at one point)... but one can still hope.

[Aapje]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

P.S. Alas, unless a third party steps up we'll probably not see infantry/horse objects for Flying Circus (like Rise of Flight received at one point)... but one can still hope.

 

Horses played a prominent role in WW II, especially with the Germans and Russians. So there should already have been horse-drawn artillery in the WW II titles. And during the Battle of Moscow, Russia briefly used masses of mounted infantry, because they had lost so much equipment during Barbarossa.

 

So horses defintely belong in more titles than just FC.

 

But with IL-2 moving to Korea and perhaps the Pacific, we will have theater of war where horses were less of a factor.

[Lusekofte]

For me only early version of this bundle would be an interest. 
a IL 2 M and JU 87 D5 bring little to none into it. I get the hype for Yak 3 and LA 7 and 109 but that is not my cup of tea

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

So, the Yak 3 and La7 are going to be sold as collectors planes? Because they dont belong in an Odessa 1944 offensive module, it happened too early.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

Horses played a prominent role in WW II, especially with the Germans and Russians. So there should already have been horse-drawn artillery in the WW II titles. And during the Battle of Moscow, Russia briefly used masses of mounted infantry, because they had lost so much equipment during Barbarossa.

 

So horses defintely belong in more titles than just FC.

Arguably, in every single title released so far, horse-drawn carts should be the No. 1 ground vehicle for at least the axis side. A quick and likely inaccurate googled ballpark gives 75% horse-drawn transport for the Germans in WW2. If memory serves me right, at the beginning of WW2, the British army was the only major army in the world that was completely mechanised (barring one or two colonial brigades in Egypt). Yet among the many ground vehicles there's not a single horse-drawn cart.

 

I mean, I get it - the latest 1940s technology™ is probably more popular with the general public. But on the other hand we have one single asset that could - with a few texturing differences - be used for literally every map and most of the combatants of the current titles.

 

That is one of my gripes with the development of the past years - the team sometimes shows a lack of fantasy. By just rigging and animating the already existing cart and horse objects, they'd have had the major transport method of both entire wars. Similarly, by just (re-)rigging the already-existing German and Soviet infantry models, they could've given TC a *huge* QOL improvement. If you're already going to create a horse 3d model or infantry tech anyhow, then why not grab the low-hanging fruit and go the extra mile?

[CzechTexan]

I vote for horses+carts too.  And give them destruction capabilities.  Also, horses + artillery, etc. (like the mod in IL2 1946).

This will add more realism to 2 wars - WWI & WW2.

 

Go one step further and add trucks towing artillery.  If I had to choose one or the other I'd pick horses. 

I can see a slow flying Chaika strafing a horse-drawn supply column around Odessa right now.

Edited April 2, 2024 by CzechTexan

[Lusekofte]

I can see this in small roads in Karelen too. Nowhere for the horses to go except forward. And then air strike. A bit of a massacre on innocent animals. Which did happen. But do we want to see it?

[sevenless]

2 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

So, the Yak 3 and La7 are going to be sold as collectors planes? Because they dont belong in an Odessa 1944 offensive module, it happened too early.

 

Sounds like it. Here:

 

Dev blog #359 / IL-2 Sturmovik: Great Battles (il2sturmovik.com)

 

For the later episode, we are thinking of Yak-3 and La-7, right now we are in final negotiations with the contractor who will make the models, and I think they will be successful. In the same way, the early episode of Odessa will include I-153, which is now in the works. The most characteristic airplanes are selected, and there will be others.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

The way I understand it, they say the Yak 3 and La-7 are going to be included in the later episode therefore Odessa 1944. Which is not historically accurate since the Yak 3 was deployed around Bagration if memory serves, and the La-7 even later...

[CzechTexan]

1 hour ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

The way I understand it, they say the Yak 3 and La-7 are going to be included in the later episode therefore Odessa 1944. Which is not historically accurate since the Yak 3 was deployed around Bagration if memory serves, and the La-7 even later...

IMO the P-39Q should be offered before either the Yak-3 or La-7.  At least the P-39 was active over Odessa area and it would be more popular with sales.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

16 minutes ago, CzechTexan said:

IMO the P-39Q should be offered before either the Yak-3 or La-7.  At least the P-39 was active over Odessa area and it would be more popular with sales.

 

Yep the P-39Q belongs there. But the Yak-3 and La-7, they dont fit in. I mean they made the 190A3 flyable for Stalingrad as well as the Mc202 flyable for Moscow so.... In both cases its historically innacurate so I could maybe see them sell the Yak-3 and La-7 as collector planes and make them flyable in Odessa 44 but I would not be a fan of it.

 

Right now I just dont see where the Yak-3 and La-7 fit in. I still feel that they need to find a way to add them to the game as they are both classic superior soviet fighters but I want them to be introduced properly, not thrown anachronistically into some campaign.

[BlackSix]

Guys, the map of Odessa allows us to show not only the defense of the city in 1941 and the liberation in 1944, but also other events on this section of the front. After the liberation of Odessa on April 10, 1944, the Red Army tried to continue the offensive in a western direction and the fighting here died down only by the summer (but this does not mean that aviation ceased to operate). The Jassy–Kishinev offensive began on August 20, 1944 and w'll most likely also be able to show its initial stage.

I haven't started working on this project yet, but I'm sure everything can be solved.

 

The first combat use of the La-7 (Operation Bagration) and Yak-3 (Lvov Operation) dates back to the end of June 1944, and all this can also be solved, perhaps following the example of Fw 190 A-3 at Stalingrad and La-5F/FN in the Kuban.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

and all this can also be solved, perhaps following the example of Fw 190 A-3 at Stalingrad

 

This is exactly how I dont want the Yak 3 and the La-7 to be introduced, as the 190 historically never saw action at Stalingrad during the time span the sim covers.

 

Also, about the La-7, I think the combat trials began later that the end of June 1944, but I am not entirely sure.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

I know the Yak 3 and La 7 are a bit out of place in the theaters we have but that doesn't bother me at all, I'm just happy to get those planes, they were prominent late war fighters.

I hope that the devs don't change their idea of producing them and still sell them to those who are interested.

People who don't want the planes 'cause they're out of place can still wait for whenever we get a map where they would fit, you never know what the future might bring.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Avimimus]

18 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

For me only early version of this bundle would be an interest. 
a IL 2 M and JU 87 D5 bring little to none into it. I get the hype for Yak 3 and LA 7 and 109 but that is not my cup of tea

 

I'm similarly biased towards the early war... although having a second P-39 would be pretty neat. If they had the resources to develop a new bomber the Ju-188 and Tu-2 have merits (but that is very unlikely, of course).

 

I'd mainly hope for a A-20G-1 or Pe-3 (early) to give Russia a heavy fighter or something like an Fi-156 or F-189 for spotting... it'd be very cool experience to have those planes in Odessa.

 

P.S. An earlier LaGG-3 was mentioned as a possibility - but what about the later ones with the slats?

[BlackSix]

48 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Also, about the La-7, I think the combat trials began later that the end of June 1944, but I am not entirely sure.

This was a very strange but widespread practice in the Red Army Air Force. Serial production of the La-7 began in May and in June they entered service with the 19th IAP (176th GIAP). But the front-line/combat tests of the La-7 took place from September 15 to October 15, 1944 during the Riga operation of the Baltic Front in the 63rd GIAP.

[Lusekofte]

18 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

I'm similarly biased towards the early war... although having a second P-39 would be pretty neat. If they had the resources to develop a new bomber the Ju-188 and Tu-2 have merits (but that is very unlikely, of course).

 

I'd mainly hope for a A-20G-1 or Pe-3 (early) to give Russia a heavy fighter or something like an Fi-156 or F-189 for spotting... it'd be very cool experience to have those planes in Odessa.

 

P.S. An earlier LaGG-3 was mentioned as a possibility - but what about the later ones with the slats?

I am all for spotter planes. IF ARTILLERY SPOTTING is implemented. I love the PO 2 to death. But the simple fix of putting a bomb aim device in it instead of allow us to lean outside to aim on the real sight. Put me totally off. And a halfhearted attempt is really not my cup of tea. Old IL 2 had a mod , you aimed with your wing strut and there would come a barrage a time later. Great fun and pretty easy solution. You would not need a communication for it just a trigger. Solving communication problems this game have. 
reason for me wanting early war is mostly for survive abilities and playability to bombers and bring in more fun dogfights. 
and they are much cooler

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

This was a very strange but widespread practice in the Red Army Air Force. Serial production of the La-7 began in May and in June they entered service with the 19th IAP (176th GIAP). But the front-line/combat tests of the La-7 took place from September 15 to October 15, 1944 during the Riga operation of the Baltic Front in the 63rd GIAP.

 

Thanks for the information. 

[310_cibule]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:53 PM, FliegerAD said:

 

I understand you, and I would love to get my hands on an Avia B-135...

So would I ; )

[Mtnbiker1998]

Another P-39 and A-20 would be excellent additions for another East front module! the P-39 is a blast to fly (if only we could get the engine fixed like we did the P-40!) and the A-20 would be an excellent addition to the Western front aswell! Can't say I have any interest in East Front these days, but some good lend-lease planes could still probably get me to pay for it.

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

This is exactly how I dont want the Yak 3 and the La-7 to be introduced, as the 190 historically never saw action at Stalingrad during the time span the sim covers.

 

Also, about the La-7, I think the combat trials began later that the end of June 1944, but I am not entirely sure.

 

You won't see any 190s over Stalingrad unless you are flying in the one unit that has them, so something similar could be done with Soviet planes over Odessa (and which is already done for certain models over Kuban too). BlackSix knows what he's doing, believe me. ?

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

You won't see any 190s over Stalingrad unless you are flying in the one unit that has them, so something similar could be done with Soviet planes over Odessa (and which is already done for certain models over Kuban too). BlackSix knows what he's doing, believe me. ?

 

Yes I know that, the Yak 9T also in Kuban I think. But think about it, lets assume the Yak-3 and La-7 are added to the Odessa 44 campaign as FLYABLE for the players squadron only like the 190A3, it means that you will never fight them if you fly for the Luftwaffe, so its kind of a waste in my opinion.

 

When a new aircraft is added, its fun to fly it yes but also fight it.

 

 

[=621=Samikatz]

If not the Yak-3/La-7, what would be a historically accurate and also interesting fighter option for the front? Had significantly improved Yak-9s reached that front by then? I know there were some new models in 1944

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, =621=Samikatz said:

If not the Yak-3/La-7, what would be a historically accurate and also interesting fighter option for the front? Had significantly improved Yak-9s reached that front by then? I know there were some new models in 1944

 

As others have said, probably later-model P-39s for one. Yaks, probably so but I'm not the expert on that. 

[BlackSix]

1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

If not the Yak-3/La-7, what would be a historically accurate and also interesting fighter option for the front? Had significantly improved Yak-9s reached that front by then? I know there were some new models in 1944

The main role in this sector of the front was played by the 17th Air Army and it was armed with the Yak-1b, Yak-9 and La-5F/FN of the later series. In August, the 5th Air Army, armed with the Yak-9 and La-5F/FN, joined. The aviation of the Black Sea Fleet also operated there but I currently have no any data from the archives about it. The exact plane modifications are usually not indicated in Soviet documents and it usually looks like this (combat strength of the 17th Air Army on August 31, 1944):

Як-1, Як-9 - Yak-1, Yak-9; Ла-5 - La-5; Б-3 - А-20; По-2 - U-2/Po-2; Ил-2 - IL-2.

[Juri_JS]

20 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

The main role in this sector of the front was played by the 17th Air Army and it was armed with the Yak-1b, Yak-9 and La-5F/FN of the later series. In August, the 5th Air Army, armed with the Yak-9 and La-5F/FN, joined. The aviation of the Black Sea Fleet also operated there but I currently have no any data from the archives about it. The exact plane modifications are usually not indicated in Soviet documents and it usually looks like this (combat strength of the 17th Air Army on August 31, 1944):

Як-1, Як-9 - Yak-1, Yak-9; Ла-5 - La-5; Б-3 - А-20; По-2 - U-2/Po-2; Ил-2 - IL-2.

 

Interesting. Do you also have data for the May/June period? During this time Luftwaffe reports also mention encounters with Yak-7bs (maybe misidentification) and P-39s.

[BlackSix]

5 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

Interesting. Do you also have data for the May/June period? During this time Luftwaffe reports also mention encounters with Yak-7bs (maybe misidentification) and P-39s.

Yes, I collected complete data on the 17th Air Army from March to August 1944. The Yak-7bs are found only in April, then everything was standard - Yak-1, Yak-9 and La-5. P-39s should be from the Black Sea Fleet 11 GIAP.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

So I guess adding a Yak-9 of a later series would make sense, you know, the Yak-9 without the chin oil radiator?

[CzechTexan]

I just did a quick refresh from Dmitry Loza's Attack of the Airacobras:

Pages 225-227: 

"For almost the entire month of Jun 1944, one of the regiments of 9th GIAD - 100th Guards- worked in the Jassy area from Likhneshti airfield.

...On 18 June this same regiment was transferred to Prizhani airfield...

Another regiment of 9th GIAD -16th Guards- was moved to Tedireni (spelling should be Todireni, 40-50 km north of Iasi/Jassy and Targu-Frumos) airfield, where it remained from 1 to 18 June 1944.

In late June 1944, 9th GIAD had to execute a transfer  between fronts , from 2nd Ukrainian Front to 1st Ukrainian Front, to participate in the Lvov-Sandomir operation (13 July to 30 August 1944).

 

Page 240: 

In May and June 1944 battles around Jassy, Romania, the fighter regiments of 9th GIAD were based on airfields at Stefaneshti and Todireni some forty-five to thirty miles from the front line.  The 100th GIAP flew to Prizhani (18 miles from the forward edge) in July.

 

-----

 

In Red Star Airacobra by Evgeniy Mariinskiy:

P-39s of 129 GIAP fought in the Jassy area in April - June 1944.

[sevenless]

10 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

So I guess adding a Yak-9 of a later series would make sense, you know, the Yak-9 without the chin oil radiator?

 

In addition to the Yak-3, the Yak-9-U would make the most sense. This is the last chance to get the VVS high performers into the game. After 2025/26 it´ll be most likely game over for years to come until someone goes back to ww2.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

In addition to the Yak-3, the Yak-9-U would make the most sense. This is the last chance to get the VVS high performers into the game. After 2025/26 it´ll be most likely game over for years to come until someone goes back to ww2.

 

My problem with the Yak 9U is that the VK-107 was a nightmare. The sim would not implement the fact that your engine starts to melt if you use wep. The gap between the 9U on paper and in operation was larger than Russia itself.

 

Or we would be stuck with a timer that makes the engine die automatically after 30 seconds of wep?

 

Also, when was the Yak 9U introduced? Cant find the info right now.

[sevenless]

10 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

My problem with the Yak 9U is that the VK-107 was a nightmare. The sim would not implement the fact that your engine starts to melt if you use wep. The gap between the 9U on paper and in operation was larger than Russia itself.

 

Or we would be stuck with a timer that makes the engine die automatically after 30 seconds of wep?

 

Also, when was the Yak 9U introduced? Cant find the info right now.

 

Yak9U was introduced 01/44 and trials lasted until 04/44. M-107A engine was indeed problematic, so that first production batches in 04/44 had the M-105 PF-3 fitted instead. 1.135 were produced by 12/44.

Edited April 3, 2024 by sevenless

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

17 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Yak9U was introduced 01/44 and trials lasted until 04/44. M-107A engine was indeed problematic, so that first production batches in 04/44 had the M-105 PF-3 fitted instead. 1.135 were produced by 12/44.

 

Something I dont remember with the VK-107, was it forbidden to use combat power and wep just to avoid shortening the time between overhaul significantly or was there also a pretty high risk of imminent catastrophic failure?

[sevenless]

4 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Something I dont remember with the VK-107, was it forbidden to use combat power and wep just to avoid shortening the time between overhaul significantly or was there also a pretty high risk of imminent catastrophic failure?

 

It needed cool-down phases. Took them until 12/44 to fix the 107 engine issues. Here´s what I have on that:

 

The experienced and first production Yak-9U VK-107A had a number of serious flaws, mainly in terms of the engine and the VMG. Main defects of the VK-107A engine: ejection of oil from the prompter and front seal of the hollow shaft of the gearbox; oil pressure drop below the permissible limit with a rise to a height; shaking when working at low modes, as well as during cleaning and giving gas; abnormal operation of the regulator of the constant pressure of supercharging (RPD); massive cases of failure of candles, etc.

 

The main defect of the VMG Yak-9U VK-107A: heating water and oil above the permissible level established by the technical conditions on the VK-107A engine, using the combat mode (3200 rpm), and in the hot season - and the nominal mode (3000 r / min) In horizontal flight at maximum speed, even with fully open dampers of water and oil radiators at an outside air temperature of + 30╟, the water and oil temperatures exceeded the maximum permissible.

 

To climb in the most advantageous rate of climb mode, from time to time it was necessary to make “platforms” in order to cool the oil and water. An increase in the climb rate from 280 km / h (the most advantageous) to 320 km / h, at which the normal temperature was maintained, led to an increase in the ascent of 5000 m by 0.91 minutes.

 

The presence of these defects excluded the possibility of obtaining the best tactical flight data, did not allow the aircraft to operate normally in all flight modes and altitudes.

 

On production aircraft of December 1944 and later, most of the defects of the prototype and the first production aircraft were eliminated.

 

Due to all this, the maximum speed of the serial Yak-9U VK-107A of later releases in the combat power mode has increased near the ground to 575 km / h and at the 2nd altitude limit of 5000 m - to 672 km / h, i.e. close to the speeds obtained on the prototype. Similar improvements were achieved in the remaining tactical performance. The Yak-9U VK-107A (32 aircraft manufactured by the N82 plant) passed military trials for combat use in 163 Sedletsky Red Banner Iap (commander - Lieutenant Colonel V. M. Ukhanov) 336 Kovelskaya Red Banner IAD ZA from October 25 to December 25, 1944.

 

Miller, Dennis W.. USSR Yak Series Fighter Aircraft in the World War II (Extended edition): Weapons and Air Forces of the World (English Edition) . Kindle-Version.