FFB Joysticks

[w00dy]

It's all down to personal preference and what hardware people have, I'm luck enough to have a high end system so can really push the graphic setting in VR. I do agree the VR still has some work to do, but over all the immersion out ways all this and adding a force feedback joystick and rudder peddles and a throttle quadrant and I feel like I'm in the plane.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Just now, w00dy said:

It's all down to personal preference and what hardware people have, I'm luck enough to have a high end system so can really push the graphic setting in VR. I do agree the VR still has some work to do, but over all the immersion out ways all this and adding a force feedback joystick and rudder peddles and a throttle quadrant and I feel like I'm in the plane.

So you own a 4090?

[w00dy]

21 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

So you own a 4090?

?

[EAF19_Marsh]

3 hours ago, w00dy said:

force feedback joystick

 

Do these exist any more? Last one I saw was a G940.

[Aapje]

Yes, but only from 'man in a shed' type sellers, like the VPforce RHINO.

[DD_Arthur]

59 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Do these exist any more? Last one I saw was a G940.

I can’t help feeling the candle of force feedback is kept alight by all those MSFFB2 sticks out there that are at least twenty years old but appear to be indestructible.

Other than that it really does seem to be talented shed-dwellers offering hand built hardware at eye watering prices.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Do these exist any more? Last one I saw was a G940.

yes they do

53 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Yes, but only from 'man in a shed' type sellers, like the VPforce RHINO.

Brünner got one but it tend to overheat in cfs usage. 
vp force rhino is excellent quality

[w00dy]

3 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Do these exist any more? Last one I saw was a G940.

 

Mine is MK2 MS one, I've had it 23 years and it still works great with Windows 11. I will be gutted when it breaks. I've looked at new expensive joysticks, but they don't seem to offer anything more.

 

And I've had it from new ?

Edited March 27, 2024 by w00dy

[EAF19_Marsh]

27 minutes ago, w00dy said:

 

Mine is MK2 MS one, I've had it 23 years and it still works great with Windows 11. I will be gutted when it breaks. I've looked at new expensive joysticks, but they don't seem to offer anything more.

 

And I've had it from new ?

I gave mine to my dad (many moons ago). Was a great piece of kit.

[Dagwoodyt]

I hope FFB joystick options will increase. Seems like a natural progression from the current spring based systems.

[w00dy]

52 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I hope FFB joystick options will increase. Seems like a natural progression from the current spring based systems.

 

Agree, I just don't get why no one makes one. You can buy steering wheels with it.

[Aapje]

3 minutes ago, w00dy said:

Agree, I just don't get why no one makes one. You can buy steering wheels with it.

 

The difference is that every car benefits from it, while fly by wire airplanes don't benefit from it that much.

 

Also, car simming is just way more popular, so the market is way bigger.

 

And it's easier to have FFB on 1 axis instead of 2.

[w00dy]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

 

The difference is that every car benefits from it, while fly by wire airplanes don't benefit from it that much.

 

Also, car simming is just way more popular, so the market is way bigger.

 

And it's easier to have FFB on 1 axis instead of 2.

 

Agree the car simming market is way bigger.

 

But alot of planes arn't fly by wire and WW2 sims are very popular in the flight sim world.

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I hope FFB joystick options will increase. Seems like a natural progression from the current spring based systems.

Agree very much. There is a bit of a renaissance in hardware offers coming through at the moment thanks to the popularity of MSFS on both PC and Xbox.

Unfortunately MSFS does not support FFB…..

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

 

The difference is that every car benefits from it, while fly by wire airplanes don't benefit from it that much.

 

Also, car simming is just way more popular, so the market is way bigger.

 

And it's easier to have FFB on 1 axis instead of 2.

It doesn't seem like too great a stretch to go from racing gear to a flight stick base. Rudder pedals with FFB on rudder and brake axes would complement the joystick base.

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, w00dy said:

But alot of planes arn't fly by wire and WW2 sims are very popular in the flight sim world.

 

Not really. Mainstream planes and jets are both more popular right now.

[Dagwoodyt]

48 minutes ago, Aapje said:

 

Not really. Mainstream planes and jets are both more popular right now.

More popular with whom? Certainly the availability of modern FFB iterations wouldn't make warbirds any less popular. I thought heli's were also supposed to benefit from FFB joysticks. 

[Youtch]

Although i was skeptical, I recently start digging on FFB base and i need to confess that it looks very very tempting. The price tag is high, but not as high as motion platforms and it seems fantastic for immersion of WWI, WW2 and cold war jets plus heli.

 

I am seriously considering it as the next potential investment.

 

I think flight simming would greatly benefit from wider adoption of FFB.

[Aapje]

51 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

More popular with whom? Certainly the availability of modern FFB iterations wouldn't make warbirds any less popular. I thought heli's were also supposed to benefit from FFB joysticks. 

 

MSFS is more popular than DCS is more popular than IL-2.

 

And look what gets used most in those games.

 

And heli's are least popular of all. But they seem to benefit most from FFB.

[MajorMagee]

The FFB Joystick market was suppressed for 20 years by aggressive patent enforcement. Even though the patent coverage has finally expired the market had pretty much given up on desiring something they couldn't have, so who now wants to spend the development effort to bring it back from the dead?

[Blitzen]

I've got mine and its still shaking after all these years!

[MAJ_stug41]

1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

I've got mine and its still shaking after all these years!

Enemy Ace?

[Blitzen]

21 minutes ago, MAJ_stug41 said:

Enemy Ace?

 

[ST_Catchov]

4 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

The FFB Joystick market was suppressed for 20 years by aggressive patent enforcement. Even though the patent coverage has finally expired the market had pretty much given up on desiring something they couldn't have, so who now wants to spend the development effort to bring it back from the dead?

 

Yes, very sad. I acquired a MSFFB2 stick back in 2008 along with Saitek pedals and Trackir. All still working fine and dandy. I'm a luddite see, and cheap. If I recall, it frightened me at the time that I was so cutting edge. Quite out of character and unused to smirking at the great unwashed.

 

[rvgls49]

15 Years ago i bought 5 Microsoft FFB 2 sticks to ensure future FFB enjoyment and experience. Most of them are still in use.

[Aapje]

6 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

The FFB Joystick market was suppressed for 20 years by aggressive patent enforcement. Even though the patent coverage has finally expired the market had pretty much given up on desiring something they couldn't have, so who now wants to spend the development effort to bring it back from the dead?

 

This has been debunked many a time on the hotas reddit.

 

Basically, Immersion had and perhaps still has a ton of patents surrounding this, and even before at least some of those expired the big companies were able to sell relatively cheap FFB products while licensing these patents.

 

These patent companies don't want to kill products, they want license fees.

[Lusekofte]

15 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Agree very much. There is a bit of a renaissance in hardware offers coming through at the moment thanks to the popularity of MSFS on both PC and Xbox.

Unfortunately MSFS does not support FFB…..

Msfs , xplane and prepare need all a so-called (don’t remember the name now) input software. My vp force works if this is installed. I think these softwares will always be like that. Since people implement all kind of stuff that need extra software and often payware 

9 hours ago, Blitzen said:

I've got mine and its still shaking after all these years!

In Gb and DCS flying ww2 the stick is dead while in ground. As soon control surfaces get wind resistance the stick center itself. And it get really hard in high speed. This is what I wanted and is more immersive than I did imagine. I care less for vibrations while shooting and such. But you can tweak it as you want it

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

Msfs , xplane and prepare need all a so-called (don’t remember the name now) input software. My vp force works if this is installed. I think these softwares will always be like that. Since people implement all kind of stuff that need extra software and often payware 

Hi Luse. I think you're talking about SimConnect. It's quite possible that you're stick is interfacing by using this but nevertheless MSFS does not natively support FFB. A pity really.

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Lusekofte said:

In Gb and DCS flying ww2 the stick is dead while in ground. As soon control surfaces get wind resistance the stick center itself. And it get really hard in

If the VPForce Rhino works with those titles that's enough reason to get in line to buy. Will be a several year wait to get hold of one.  With luck new entries may come to market in the meanwhile. Hope you will keep us up to date on durability and tuning issues. I wonder how well FFB is implemented in FC.
?

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

Hi Luse. I think you're talking about SimConnect. It's quite possible that you're stick is interfacing by using this but nevertheless MSFS does not natively support FFB. A pity really.

I do agree with you. X plane is the same. I guess they stuck with the old way of thinking. 14 inch screen and mouse head movement. 

35 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If the VPForce Rhino works with those titles that's enough reason to get in line to buy. Will be a several year wait to get hold of one.  With luck new entries may come to market in the meanwhile. Hope you will keep us up to date on durability and tuning issues. I wonder how well FFB is implemented in FC.
?

I got the time. Last time I flew fc the stick pushed forward in a awkward position 

 

[Aapje]

59 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If the VPForce Rhino works with those titles that's enough reason to get in line to buy. Will be a several year wait to get hold of one.  With luck new entries may come to market in the meanwhile. Hope you will keep us up to date on durability and tuning issues. I wonder how well FFB is implemented in FC.
?

 

The wait time for a Rhino is supposed to be less than half a year. Unless you guys all rush out and order one, I guess

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

The wait time for a Rhino is supposed to be less than half a year.

I hope that's accurate. Anyone know how long before a preorder # gets emailed to a buyer?

[Aapje]

You should join the discord. He has a bot that you can ask about your spot in the queue.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Aapje

[Varibraun]

34 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I hope that's accurate. Anyone know how long before a preorder # gets emailed to a buyer?

 

I don't know exactly how far out before your reservation # gets a payment notice to complete the order.  However, with the appropriate query, they keep you up to date on the VPForce Discord with your reservation # and how many reservations are ahead of you.  My actual reservation number bumped down by over 100 as I guess others came off the list or elected not to order.  So you seem to actually make progress in getting your order faster than the just shipping #s would reflect.

 

Here is a screenshot of the current "!stats" query if that helps at all:

 

[Aapje]

Yeah, apparently about half the people who reserved don't actually buy it

[Dagwoodyt]

I raised possibility of finding FFB rudder pedals in a previous post, but seems that DCS only supports FFB on pitch and roll axes. I guess that would be the same for GB/FC also(?)

Edited March 30, 2024 by Dagwoodyt

[Aapje]

AFAIK, the only possibility is the Brunner pedals and then you are fully dependent on the Brunner plugins, which exist only for MSFS, X-Plane and Prepar3d. Basically, if you buy this, you are completely dependent on support by Brunner, which is far from optimal.

 

I would personally only suggest this for someone who only flies MSFS (a lot!) and who is willing to spend quite a bit of time tuning the software for each plane they use.

[102nd-YU-cmirko]

Rhino FFB pedals kit is the only other choice beside Brunner - it requires some DIY or a bit of waiting for Rhino creator to produce a kit for MFG pedals....

 

https://github.com/mabo1972/VirpilACE-VPForce-Mod )more details is always available on VPforce Controls discord server)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

AFAIK, the only possibility is the Brunner pedals and then you are fully dependent on the Brunner plugins, which exist only for MSFS, X-Plane and Prepar3d. Basically, if you buy this, you are completely dependent on support by Brunner, which is far from optimal.

 

I would personally only suggest this for someone who only flies MSFS (a lot!) and who is willing to spend quite a bit of time tuning the software for each plane they use.

The Brunner website and YT promotional videos are somewhat misleading in that regard. The basic question however is whether DCS and GB/FC support FFB for yaw axis. If not, that would explain why we only have FFB joysticks on offer.

[Aapje]

If you look at the DCS forum, people who tried seem to have had issues using both a FFB stick and rudder pedals. The developers also said that they will put zero effort into this.

 

Brunner has not said that they will support this. So you'd be paying 1800 euro's with zero support. That's a lot of money for something that may just be a paperweight. In any case, you'd be pioneering with extremely little help from others.

 

Quote

If not, that would explain why we only have FFB joysticks on offer.

 

Keep in mind that we never had mainstream FFB rudder pedals, while we had mainstream FFB joysticks. So many people know what they are missing with regard to FFB joysticks, but almost no one knows that with regard to rudder pedals.