GLADIATOR NXT EVO ‘WWII COMBAT EDITION’ Force Feedback question

[jokash]

I bought this thing,and cant seem to find any info on force feedback,does it have it (like making it harder in turns,or shaking while firing etc.)or does it not include this option?

[Aapje]

No, there is no force feedback in it. There is a spring to make it return to neutral.

 

In the current state of the industry, force feedback is a small niche where low volume is produced at high prices. Think at least 4 times the price of the Gladiator.

 

It is a very nice joystick though.

[jokash]

funny cause my old logitech 3d pro had something like force feedback i think (i would get stiff in turns and things like that).But also sometimes it wouldn't work on it so i wondered if it was the same thing with this joystick.

[Aapje]

Basically, the entire flight simming genre was more popular in the past, with big companies making lots of games and hardware as well. The program manager for MSFS has himself said that it wasn't even necessarily intended as a product to make large profits on itself, but that a major reason was that they could use it to show off the graphical capabilities of the PC. It basically was the Xbox that killed off MSFS, as they then wanted to market the Xbox and decided that MSFS was a bad match for a console with a simple controller. I think that one of the main reasons why they brought back MSFS in 2020 was because they wanted to market Bing, actually.

 

There probably were a bunch of other reasons why flight sims became less popular, like the rise of smartphone games and people just having more choice in general.

 

So anyway, it was Microsoft who primarily developed these FFB joysticks (with Logitech copying it) and since they also made MSFS, they could integrate them well in the game. When flight simming became less popular and MS pretty much gave up on it, they also stopped developing and even selling the FFB joysticks.

 

And they are not the only ones who stopped development. Basically, the older brands have pretty much all stopped developing new joysticks, with products like the Saitek X52 Pro still being sold despite being a 2007 product. And the Thrustmaster Warthog is still sold new despite being a 2010 product.

 

Enthusiasts of course got unhappy with the lack of new, better products, so we got small companies making high end gear, like Virpil, VKB and Winwing. But the longer the classic brands kept selling the same old stuff, the easier it became for these small companies to compete at lower price points. So now you can get a VKB Gladiator for about the price of the Warthog stick, but with much better technology, even though a company like Thrustmaster could beat the pants off VKB with their marketing, sales channels and production volume if they would make a serious attempt.

 

We actually see something similar in race simming, where you can now get proper direct drive systems from smaller companies for not that much more than far inferior belt-drive offerings from brands like Logitech. Also in that genre we see these smaller companies thriving by developing and selling hardware with newer technology, while the big companies are content to sell the same old technology.

Anyway, we've seen that MSFS has made a comeback with MSFS that was a great success. So hopefully (flight) simming will make a bit of a comeback for the mainstream, also with regard to the hardware. With direct drive systems rapidly coming down in price for race simming, it seems plausible to me that the time may be right for a serious attempt at making a FFB joystick for a decent price. After all, a top tier FFB joystick is basically two very weak direct drive systems.

 

My guess is that even a small volume company like VKB could make a very solid FFB joystick for less than $400-$500. Something like less than $100 for the motors (a bit weaker than those in the VPForce Rhino, which are 67 euro per motor in a store). Then about $20-$30 for the power supply. And another $10-$25 for the control electronics. Then about $100 for the stick itself. Then another $100 for some extra solid parts that you would need due to the larger forces, for the extra housing you would need and for assembly. So that makes $350. Then add $50-$150 margin for VKB. So that makes $400-$500 in total.

 

This is about the same cost at the higher end joystick offerings you can get today, without FFB.

 

The current FFB offerings are basically just 'guy in a shed' projects, which means that they are way more expensive than needed. For example, VPForce can't afford cheap plastic molding (which has high upfront costs, but low costs per unit) and he seems to just buy off the shelf motors at quite high prices. And his control board seems to cost $75-$100 if you buy it from him, which is understandable for very low volume, but even with fairly modest production numbers, you should be able to get that down to more like $10-$25.

 

PS. I would argue that a cheap belt-drive FFB joystick would be great as well, since I think that a lot of demand for the more advanced direct drive wheels in race simming comes from people who used a belt-drive wheel and discovered that they love FFB, but want something better than a belt-drive.

[kestrel79]

I'm really hoping with the current success of MSFS2020, and the new one coming out this year or next year with what looks like more "things to do" the flight sim genre will get another boom and places will make some cooler gear for it. It's already starting with the help of Star Citizen and MSFS so here's to more.

[BlitzPig_Bill_Kelso]

Microsoft stopped making FF joysticks due to a patent lawsuit they lost regarding FF.

[Aapje]

 

1 hour ago, 1./JG54_Lang said:

Microsoft stopped making FF joysticks due to a patent lawsuit they lost regarding FF.

 

That is not true, they settled with Immersion, where they got the rights to use the technology. So this was not the reason why they quit. I explained why above.