Minengeschoss

[Ghost666]

3 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

That looks pretty fake

Yep, sure did.

[Avimimus]

On 7/8/2024 at 3:42 AM, =HazMatt=HazMatt said:

Does anybody have a link to some 262 attacks on bombers? Seems most of these are .20mm and I'd like to see some .30mm but I haven't been able to find anything good.

 

I'd submit that we should be ignoring Me-262 footage on account of the fact that they have four cannons clustered close together - the effective rate of fire is 2600 rounds per minute - so the ability to distinguish the effects of individual rounds is impossible (or at least extremely unreliable).

 

 

  

On 7/10/2024 at 9:58 AM, the_emperor said:

since the later soviet 20mm got corrected from 2.8. to 5.6g of HE filling, lets bring up the filling of all 20mm HE-rounds in general.

the game seems to use TNT equivalent for calculation:

 

I think those lua files are showing the energy for the fragments from the rounds.

 

It is worth noting that larger casing to powder ratios tend to lead to small fragments... tou can see this in the statistics for German bombs, with the Sprengbombe Dickwandig (SD series) fragmentation bombs having much lower fillings ratios than the Sprengbombe Cylindrich (SC series) bombs... with the aim of producing fewer more energetic fragments (that can travel further and still do damage). Of course, one can do things to adjust fragmentation further, such as pre-weaken parts of the warhead walls... so this is an over-simplification.

 

...but the point is there is a complex relationship between the amount of explosive filling in a bullet and the number of fragments and the energy/damage potential of those fragments - which is likely what we're seeing here.

[the_emperor]

11 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I think those lua files are showing the energy for the fragments from the rounds.

 

It is worth noting that larger casing to powder ratios tend to lead to small fragments... tou can see this in the statistics for German bombs, with the Sprengbombe Dickwandig (SD series) fragmentation bombs having much lower fillings ratios than the Sprengbombe Cylindrich (SC series) bombs... with the aim of producing fewer more energetic fragments (that can travel further and still do damage). Of course, one can do things to adjust fragmentation further, such as pre-weaken parts of the warhead walls... so this is an over-simplification.

 

...but the point is there is a complex relationship between the amount of explosive filling in a bullet and the number of fragments and the energy/damage potential of those fragments - which is likely what we're seeing here.

 

Could be...I actually dont know that. but they quickly changed the soviet 2.8g to 5.6g when it when was presented.

So in terms of historical accuracy those numbers should be adjusted as besides the frag damage it seems to determine the surface (aka how big the hole is) damage and therefore how much "aerodynamic punishement"  is creates.

and in that regards the soviet and german HE round should get the correct increased TNT equivalent

as the 20mm Hispano must be reduced (while still maintaining its superior frag damage). The historical numbers are pretty clear on that.

The Structural damage of the Mineshell due to its delay action is another issue, an issue that I guess cant be resolved due to the limitations of the game.

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by the_emperor

[=MERCS=JenkemJunkie]

It's likely all the HE rounds that potentially weren't converted to TNT equivalent. I never checked the other rounds, but it would be weird if it only affected all of the 20mms, and none of the others.

 

Maybe it's just poorly worded in the code, and all the damage is calculated correctly anyways, but seeing a line that says:

 

TNT_equ=*raw powder weight* // TNT equivalent for atmospheric shockwave modeling

 

looks suspicious.

 

[the_emperor]

4 hours ago, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

Maybe it's just poorly worded in the code, and all the damage is calculated correctly anyways, but seeing a line that says:

 

TNT_equ=*raw powder weight* // TNT equivalent for atmospheric shockwave modeling

 

looks suspicious.

Jep. 
but using TNT equivalent does make sense when different explosive are used as in this game.

and if thats the case it must be according to the historical correct numbers. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by the_emperor

[HazMatt]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:17 AM, =MERCS=JenkemJunkie said:

That looks pretty fake, but if you're a good boy and pray to RNGesus hard enough, then 5% of the time your bullets will work every time!

Um, ya, I never said it was real.

[JFS4_Eisbaer]

20mm mine ammunition. Left photo with impact fuse, right photo with fragmentation fuse and duplex capsule.
 

 

[the_emperor]

regarding @JFS4_Eisbaer post:

 

left fuze very sensible early AZ  fuze

 

regular ZZ 1505 (self destruction fuze)

 

mention Duplexkapsel (duplex burst charge), but not delay charge (would be interesting to see the orignal report)

 

 

 

 

[72AG_terror]

On 7/16/2024 at 11:53 AM, JFS4_Eisbaer said:

20mm mine ammunition. Left photo with impact fuse, right photo with fragmentation fuse and duplex capsule.
 

 

Both fuses were of impact type and had no delay mechanisms, you can see it yourself thanks to the_emporer's kind contribution. ZZ - does not mean 'fragmentation' it means  'with self-destruction' (AZ means 'impact' without self-destruction). The ZZ fuse held 8 balls which upon the shell leaving the barrel would press against the walls of the conical ring due to centrifugal forces of the shell rotation. The spring in turn exerted constant downward pressure but could not overcome the force holding the balls to the sides. When rotation slowed down (2-3 seconds in-flight), the centrifugal force diminished, the balls could no longer support the striker pin forced down by the spring and were pressed inwards and down, this allowed the pin to strike the capsule and blow up (self-destruct) the shell. If, however, the shell encountered an obstacle in its flight, additional force of the impact would provide enough pressure to overcome the holding force of the balls and strike the capsule. So both fuses acted the same in terms of time - they stroke as soon as an obstacle was encountered.

The capsule, as stated below the pictures, was the same type ('Duplex') in both cases so there was no difference here.

There are two more things different according to the descriptions:

1. In the first picture '... very early activation of the fuse ...', probably the fuse was somehow made to do this? Additional info required.
2. The second picture: ' ... The 2cm Minengeschoss was filled with 20g of pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN) and weighed 92g. ...' - It was not in the first test then?

In 1944 'Minengeschoss' used PETN exclusively. So there would be no reason to test it without it. Secondly, in the same 1944 Minengeschoss used both AZ and ZZ fuses. AS a side note: they were marked with different colors - a shell with AZ fuse was uniform yellow color while ZZ-equiped had and additional green ring just below the fuse. If AZ was somehow so much inferior to the ZZ - why still use it in 1944?

Curiously it is written that the He-111 tail unit part was 'the same'. Does that mean, that they shot at one piece twice and we see the final result? 🙃

I agree with the_emperor, would be nice to see the whole test paper.

 

In my oppinion these two pages were a simple description of some earlier tests results of different types of ammunition and fuses and so are not exactly relevant to the current discussion. We could only use the second picture as a reference as it corresponds to the German 1944 Minengeschoss description: AZ (1502) or ZZ (1505) fuse with PETN filling and 92g of weight.

Edited July 22, 2024 by 72AG_terror

[the_emperor]

19 hours ago, 72AG_terror said:

I agree with the_emperor, would be nice to see the whole test paper.

 

In my oppinion these two pages were a simple description of some earlier tests results of different types of ammunition and fuses and so are not exactly relevant to the current discussion. We could only use the second picture as a reference as it corresponds to the German 1944 Minengeschoss description: AZ (1502) or ZZ (1505) fuse with PETN filling and 92g of weight.

 

Yeah, unfortunately without the original paper it is a bit of guess work, as this secondary literature is seldom up the scientific standard, especially older works, and very much up to interpretation of the author.

But it does look like an earlier test. and like the first is a regular HE (I?)-shell, not a mineshell.

the later and final 20mm mineshell employed 18.6g of HA41 (modern HE-I filling, very similar to the soviet AI-X2). and a VD (~20cm) or VC 70 (70cm +-25) delay charge.

 

But we do have the numbers in terms, which shell makes the biggest hole, there is really no question:

 

British/US:

5.6g Tetryl R.E. factor 1.25 ~7g TNT 

 

(Later) Soviet:

5.6g A-IX-2 (73% RDX, 23% aluminum powder, phlegmatized with 4% wax; R.E. factor 1.54)~8,624g TNT

or 4.13g (~6.36g TNT)  for the tracer version

 earlier soviet HE-I rounds held about 2,8g of tetryl (~3.5g TNT) or 2.64g A-IX-2 (~4.07g TNT)

 

German:

18,6g HA41 (75% RDX, 20% aluminum powder, phlegmatized with 5% wax; R.E. factor ~1.5)~28g TNT

with delay charge for increased blast and pressure effect, and more effective against anything internal that can be set alight.

Edited July 23, 2024 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

I did put in a Flight&Damage model report. lets see what comes of it (at the current state of resources I guess not much).

 

[JFS4_Eisbaer]

[JFS4_Eisbaer]

Gun camera: Me 262 attacking Bomber, firing the MK-108 30mm autocannon.

 

 

[LukeFF]

That's almost certainly not original WWII footage.

[Aapje]

The description states that it is ingame footage. And you can see it too.

[LukeFF]

17 minutes ago, Aapje said:

The description states that it is ingame footage. And you can see it too.

 

"This is in game footage of Gunship Sequel WW2, A WW2 Dogfighting Simulator which is available on both Android and iOS Devices"

[HazMatt]

This really has gotten to the point of ridiculous. I was flying online today and saw a Tempest take at least 4 30mm hits from a 152 and a 262 and he kept fighting and did not go down.

 

I found this about the testing of the Mk-108 round:

Testing verified that the cannon was well suited to this role, requiring on average just four hits with its 85g RDX-load (in a 330g shell) and a resulting strongly brisant high-explosive ammunition, to bring down a heavy bomber such as a B-17 Flying Fortress or B-24 Liberator, and just a single "shattering" hit to down a fighter. In comparison, the otherwise excellent 20 mm MG 151/20 (18g of HE in a 92g shell) required about 15 to 20 hits to down a B-17.

 

4 hits to bring down a heavy bomber and 1 shattering hit to bring down a fighter but a Tempest survives 4 "shattering" hits? This in combination with the 30mm unable to kill tanks even though evidence has been presented showing the penetration of the round and the thickness of the armor on parts of the tanks that it should easily penetrate and the fact that nothing has been done is leading me to believe this is deliberate  and won't be fixed.

 

Why are they working a a new game if this one has such major issues as this? This is so frustrating. Ugh. Maybe time to switch to another sim. I was going to buy some stuff during the current sale but I'm thinking maybe I should spend my money on something else. Any suggestions?

Edited August 6, 2024 by HazMatt

[the_emperor]

17 hours ago, HazMatt said:

I found this about the testing of the Mk-108 round:

Testing verified that the cannon was well suited to this role, requiring on average just four hits with its 85g RDX-load (in a 330g shell) and a resulting strongly brisant high-explosive ammunition, to bring down a heavy bomber such as a B-17 Flying Fortress or B-24 Liberator, and just a single "shattering" hit to down a fighter. In comparison, the otherwise excellent 20 mm MG 151/20 (18g of HE in a 92g shell) required about 15 to 20 hits to down a B-17.

 

as mentioned before the Germans rated the 20mm with twenty hits and the 30mm with 5 hits or the destruction of four engine heavy, and the americans with 17 respectively 4 hits for a total destruction of a four engine heavy (maybe the germans rated a B-17 and the Americans a B-24😁).

and we have the hands on testing of the MK-108 testing of the british against a Spitfire and Blenheim fusulage and wings...so the effectivness, especially of the MK108 Mineshell is very well documented and a fuselage hit where the blast and pressure effect can work to its full effect cuts both (more or less) in half, while on a smaller fighter wing some of that effect is lost, but is also rated with a high one hit kill chance.

[HazMatt]

I don't see how, even if the full effect is cut in half, that a tempest would survive at least 4 hits. 2 were wing hits but they were both on the same wing...

It's not as if the tempest suffered catastrophic damage and was struggling to fly. It was still maneuvering and was able to rtb.

 

And what about the anti tank role? The 30mm doesn't appear to be working correctly there either.

 

From what I've seen a .50 cal bullet can tear the  wing off of a 109 but a tempest can survive 4 30mm hits. How is this in anyway realistic?

 

I think my frustration is that to me this seems to be a major issue and seems like it wouldn't be difficult to fix by changing whatever the variable is in the function that determines the damage of the .30mm round. Maybe all the focus has moved to developing the new game and this one is no longer a priority. 

Edited August 7, 2024 by HazMatt

[Roland_HUNter]

18 minutes ago, HazMatt said:

I don't see how, even if the full effect is cut in half, that a tempest would survive at least 4 hits. 2 were wing hits but they were both on the same wing...

It's not as if the tempest suffered catastrophic damage and was struggling to fly. It was still maneuvering and was able to rtb.

 

And what about the anti tank role? The 30mm doesn't appear to be working correctly there either.

 

From what I've seen a .50 cal bullet can tear the  wing off of a 109 but a tempest can survive 4 .30mm hits. How is this in anyway realistic?

 

I think my frustration is that to me this seems to be a major issue and seems like it wouldn't be difficult to fix by changing whatever the variable is in the function that determines the damage of the .30mm round. Maybe all the focus has moved to developing the new game and this one is no longer a priority. 

MK-108 had no AP ammo.
For the HS-129 Mk103 can be checked for this.

[HazMatt]

Right. I'm talking about the thread about the HS-129 being unable to kill tanks that it should be able to.

 

The problem seems to be with all the 30 mm not just this one.

Edited August 7, 2024 by HazMatt

[Avimimus]

28 minutes ago, HazMatt said:

The problem seems to be with all the .30 mm not just this one.

 

Got an extra decimal there: .30mm would be about 1.18 calibre (so about 1/16th the diameter of a 0.303).

[HazMatt]

Fixed. I hate when my keyboard does that.

[the_emperor]

18 hours ago, HazMatt said:

I think my frustration is that to me this seems to be a major issue and seems like it wouldn't be difficult to fix by changing whatever the variable is in the function that determines the damage of the .30mm round. Maybe all the focus has moved to developing the new game and this one is no longer a priority. 

 

Yeah, feels like the game will be left in the state it is now and will not longer be polished despite of major issues that should be corrected.

[kraut1]

On 7/16/2024 at 10:53 AM, JFS4_Eisbaer said:

Spoiler

20mm mine ammunition. Left photo with impact fuse, right photo with fragmentation fuse and duplex capsule.
 

 

 

 

On 8/6/2024 at 7:14 PM, the_emperor said:

 

as mentioned before the Germans rated the 20mm with twenty hits and the 30mm with 5 hits or the destruction of four engine heavy, and the americans with 17 respectively 4 hits for a total destruction of a four engine heavy (maybe the germans rated a B-17 and the Americans a B-24😁).

and we have the hands on testing of the MK-108 testing of the british against a Spitfire and Blenheim fusulage and wings...so the effectivness, especially of the MK108 Mineshell is very well documented and a fuselage hit where the blast and pressure effect can work to its full effect cuts both (more or less) in half, while on a smaller fighter wing some of that effect is lost, but is also rated with a high one hit kill chance.

 

On 7/26/2024 at 7:24 PM, LukeFF said:

 

"This is in game footage of Gunship Sequel WW2, A WW2 Dogfighting Simulator which is available on both Android and iOS Devices"

 

This week I have started my first ever Me-262 fighter Bomber pilot career.

In general the mission design is okay. Despite of comparable long distances to the targets the low level flights take not too much time.

The targets are always attacked by the AI flight leader directly without any circling and searching.

In each mission (Campaign setting with few planes / AAA, enemy superiority) some attacking enemy and friendly planes appear.

Disadvantages: return flight after bomb drop unnecessarily slow speed by AI flight leader

 

The armament is reduced by default, only 2x MK108. But of course their fire is concentrated, very close to the line of the gun sight, maybe similar as the Me410 or the BF110-G2.

I flew 3 (low altitude) missions, and during the last mission I attacked a flight of P47 that were following my (too slow flying) AI flight leader and no.3/4.

I attacked 3 times with a high speed and was 2 times able to get the P47 into my sight to fire a short burst.

Both P47 crashed after one attack.

 

Detail data from selected report files:

Spoiler

LOGIN:00000000-0000-0000-0000-400000000000 NAME: TYPE:Me 262 A COUNTRY:201 FORM:4 FIELD:736255 INAIR:1 PARENT:-1 ISPL:0 ISTSTART:1 PAYLOAD:7 FUEL:0.9000 SKIN:me262a/me262a_blank_02.dds WM:193
T:15 AType:12 ID:1256447 TYPE:Me 262 A COUNTRY:201 NAME:Nils Reissner PID:-1 POS(301401.7500,39.8316,299420.5313)
T:15 AType:12 ID:1257471 TYPE:BotPilot_Me262_GER44 COUNTRY:201 NAME:BotPilot_Me262_GER44 PID:1256447 POS(301400.8438,39.9984,299421.0313)
T:15 AType:10 PLID:1256447 PID:1257471 BUL:160 SH:0 BOMB:1 RCT:0 (301401.7500,39.8316,299420.5313) IDS:520e6376-c04d-41b3-a53d-2d58c445defe LOGIN:7774a942-8165-481d-910a-2aab3c2b08b4 NAME:kraut1 TYPE:Me 262 A COUNTRY:201 FORM:3 FIELD:736255 INAIR:1 PARENT:-1 ISPL:1 ISTSTART:1 PAYLOAD:8 FUEL:0.9027 SKIN:me262a/me262a_blank_02.dds WM:193

//1st P47 shot down:
T:43030 AType:12 ID:934911 TYPE:P-47D-22 COUNTRY:103 NAME:Doris Langdon,103494,3 PID:-1 POS(222066.2031,42.7962,186482.3594)
T:43030 AType:5 PID:934911 POS(222066.2031, 42.7962, 186482.3594)

//2nd P47 shot down:
T:43320 AType:12 ID:951295 TYPE:P-47D-22 COUNTRY:103 NAME:Merl Saposnick,103494,1 PID:-1 POS(222089.5781,42.7166,186483.2656)
T:43320 AType:5 PID:951295 POS(222089.5781, 42.7166, 186483.2656)

//1st attack
T:0 AType:15 VER:17
T:98426 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98426 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98427 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98427 AType:12 ID:935935 TYPE:BotPilot_P47_USA43 COUNTRY:103 NAME:BotPilot_P47_USA43 PID:934911 POS(183896.6875,937.9517,207713.0625)
T:98427 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:935935
T:98427 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98427 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:935935
//major hit:
T:98427 AType:2 DMG:1.0000 AID:1256447 TID:934911 POS(183896.0000,937.6852,207712.4375)
T:98427 AType:3 AID:1256447 TID:934911 POS(183896.0000,937.6852,207712.4375)
T:98427 AType:2 DMG:1.0000 AID:1256447 TID:935935 POS(183896.6875,937.9517,207713.0625)
T:98427 AType:3 AID:1256447 TID:935935 POS(183896.6875,937.9517,207713.0625)
T:98430 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98430 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98431 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98431 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:935935
T:98431 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98431 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:935935
T:98435 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98436 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98436 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:935935
T:98440 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98441 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:934911
T:98441 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:935935

Spoiler

T:98480 AType:6 PID:754687 POS(228325.5938, 20.3016, 195030.5313)
T:98643 AType:13 AID:1031167 COUNTRY:201 ENABLED:1 BC(0,12,6,0,0)
T:99290 AType:6 PID:934911 POS(184453.4375, 37.7172, 208693.1250)
T:99396 AType:13 AID:1033215 COUNTRY:102 ENABLED:1 BC(0,4,2,0,0)
T:99647 AType:13 AID:1031167 COUNTRY:201 ENABLED:1 BC(0,11,6,0,0)
T:99647 AType:13 AID:1033215 COUNTRY:102 ENABLED:1 BC(0,3,2,0,0)
T:99898 AType:13 AID:1031167 COUNTRY:201 ENABLED:1 BC(0,11,5,0,0)

//2nd attack
T:0 AType:15 VER:17
T:103769 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:951295
T:103769 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:951295
T:103769 AType:2 DMG:0.0007 AID:1256447 TID:951295 POS(196783.8281,1037.1960,219175.1875)
T:103770 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:951295
T:103770 AType:12 ID:952319 TYPE:BotPilot_P47_USA43 COUNTRY:103 NAME:BotPilot_P47_USA43 PID:951295 POS(196786.8281,1037.7223,219177.8281)
T:103770 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:952319
T:103770 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:951295
T:103770 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:952319
//major hit:
T:103770 AType:2 DMG:0.7711 AID:1256447 TID:952319 POS(196786.8281,1037.7223,219177.8281)
T:103772 AType:2 DMG:0.1918 AID:1256447 TID:951295 POS(196790.7813,1037.7809,219181.2969)
T:103773 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_30x184_HE AID:1256447 TID:951295
T:103774 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:951295
T:103774 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:1256447 TID:952319
T:103775 AType:2 DMG:0.1032 AID:1256447 TID:951295 POS(196797.7188,1038.3835,219187.3906)
T:103778 AType:2 DMG:0.0145 AID:1256447 TID:951295 POS(196804.6406,1038.9738,219193.4688)
T:103781 AType:2 DMG:0.0020 AID:1256447 TID:951295 POS(196811.5469,1039.5341,219199.5625)
T:103784 AType:2 DMG:0.0003 AID:1256447 TID:951295 POS(196818.4531,1040.0570,219205.6563)
T:103830 AType:6 PID:1202175 POS(200179.4531, 59.7401, 222175.6719)
T:104078 AType:1 AMMO:BULLET_GER_13x64_HE AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104079 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104081 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_20x82_AP AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104081 AType:2 DMG:0.0032 AID:693247 TID:255999 POS(166012.1719,2747.8921,186810.4063)
T:104082 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104084 AType:2 DMG:0.0004 AID:693247 TID:255999 POS(166008.4531,2746.1421,186810.8281)
T:104114 AType:1 AMMO:BULLET_GER_13x64_HE AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104115 AType:1 AMMO:BULLET_GER_13x64_AP AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104115 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104116 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104117 AType:2 DMG:0.0270 AID:693247 TID:255999 POS(165967.3125,2726.4524,186812.0781)
T:104118 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_20x82_HE AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104119 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:693247 TID:255999
T:104119 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:693247 TID:257023
T:104120 AType:2 DMG:0.0044 AID:693247 TID:255999 POS(165963.5625,2724.6140,186811.8750)
T:104123 AType:2 DMG:0.0006 AID:693247 TID:255999 POS(165959.8125,2722.7625,186811.6250)
T:104129 AType:2 DMG:0.0001 AID:693247 TID:255999 POS(165952.3125,2719.0168,186811.0313)

 

Edited August 9, 2024 by kraut1