Where did they get the gunners for the IL2 where the gunner was added as a field mod?

[DressedWings]

I saw the BoS trailer and it got me thinking, where did they find the gunners (the real Il2s..)  for the field mod rear gun?

 

*sorry if this is the wrong section.. rather new to the Il2 forums.

Edited July 30, 2013 by DressedWings

[Heywooood]

probably grabbed a general infantryman or in some cases in WWI didn't they just use a mechanic or rigger ? seems I read that somewhere

in "shaving ryans privates" the line from Cap to the stenographer ratclaws was   "did you go through basic training?...and did you fire a weapon in basic?...then leave the typewriter and grab a rifle"

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

Pilots from the regiment who had no serviceable plane available and untrained groundcrew in the beginning. Trained Gunners came later.

[DressedWings]

It seems anyone who knew how to fire a gun could be used. Ok, thanks for the response. I didn't know whether they just used mechanics, or infantrymen or what. 

[Peshka]

Please may read some of the history!

 

In World war number 1 many were trained as observers ... the red baron was one that was this before being pilot!!!

 

For soviet gunners they were to trained. may be they were lucky before in the TB-3?

 

They were not the man who was just standing around and some one says "Hay!! you get in this aeroplane and fire the gun!!"

 

Why you all think this?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Their life expectancy was terribly short.

[DressedWings]

Please may read some of the history!

 

In World war number 1 many were trained as observers ... the red baron was one that was this before being pilot!!!

 

For soviet gunners they were to trained. may be they were lucky before in the TB-3?

 

They were not the man who was just standing around and some one says "Hay!! you get in this aeroplane and fire the gun!!"

 

Why you all think this?

 

I am accepting what was said here because I would think that people would know what they were saying before responding. Neither you nor they have really come up with a real source though.. so you can't claim they are wrong and you are right (although I'm not disputing the likelihood.) 

[rebeccca]

Peshka, if the turret was an inofficial field mod, then where would they officially have gotten trained gunners from?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Peshka, if the turret was an inofficial field mod, then where would they officially have gotten trained gunners from?

The turret started out as a field modification but the next IL-2 series, the IL-2M included a dedicated rear gunner station. This was the point where it was fully realized that IL-2s required rear defensive gunners despite their armor and despite the promise of fighter protection. Fighters were not always present and armor was not enough. This is when the trained gunners for IL-2s began to filter into the ranks.

[rebeccca]

Sure, but DW's thread is about the first models with gunner positions as field mods.

[707shap_Srbin]

Sorry for russian, but here is from memoirs of lt. Palmov, sq.leader in 806shap, Stalingrad front, autumn 1942:

 

 Выход из положения нашли оружейники полка. Инженеры по вооружению Иконников, Кропанев и механик сержант Сычев установили за кабиной летчика пулемет. Для размещения стрелка и пулемета использовали люк, прикрытый съемным дюралевым листом. Этим люком мы и раньше не раз пользовались, перевозя механиков при перебазировании. Сначала задние пулеметы были установлены всего на двух "илах". Первые два боевых вылета прошли спокойно: вражеские истребители в районе цели не появлялись. Но наши новые стрелки инженер Иконников и механик Сычев не потеряли даром время: обкатались, кое-что приладили, доделали. Боевое крещение это изобретение получило во время третьего вылета. Пара "мессеров" решила атаковать нашу группу при отходе от цели. Уверенно и нахально, без мер предосторожности заходили гитлеровцы на крайние, фланговые самолеты. Уже было известно, что фашистские истребители атакуют наверняка, открывают огонь с короткой дистанции. Так было и на этот раз. Но наши стрелки, подпустив противника довольно близко, открыли первыми огонь. Результат оказался поразительным. "Мессер", по которому стрелял инженер Иконников, перевернулся на спину и врезался в землю. Второй, прошитый пулеметной трассой сержанта Сычева, не сделав ни одного выстрела, отвалил в сторону и, дымясь, пошел на снижение. На земле летчики радостно качали первых воздушных стрелков.

[rebeccca]

Thank you Bersrk! Luckily I understand Russian and speak a little. Reading is a different matter though, I don't have to do that too often. Gonna take a while to read that. :D

[Uufflakke]

Thank you Bersrk! Luckily I understand Russian and speak a little. Reading is a different matter though, I don't have to do that too often. Gonna take a while to read that. :D

 

This is what Google Translate makes out of the above quoted cyrrilic text:

 

"The remedy found gunsmiths Regiment. Engineers on arms Ikonnikov, Kropanov sergeant and mechanic Sychev established for the pilot's cabin gun. To organize and hand gun used hatch closed with a removable duralumin sheet. These hatch and we have never once enjoyed, carrying mechanics with relocation. First, the rear machine guns were installed on only two "muds". The first two sorties were calmly enemy fighters in the target area did not turn up. But our new arrows Ikonnikov engineer and mechanic Sychev not lost the gift of time: rolled, something priladit, completed the. Baptism of fire, the invention has received during the third flight. A pair of "Messers" decided to attack our group during the withdrawal from the goal. Confident and brash, no precautions Nazis went to the extreme, the flank planes. It was already known that the fascist fighters attack for sure, open fire at close range. So it was at this time. But our hands, letting the enemy up close and opened fire first. The result was astounding. "Messer" on which the engineer Ikonnikov shot, rolled over on his back and hit the ground. Second, machine-gun-stitched track sergeant Sychev, without firing a single shot, and rolled to the side and, steaming, went on the decline. On the ground, the pilots happily shaking their first aerial gunners."

Edited July 31, 2013 by Uufflakke

[Heywooood]

reassigned mechanics maybe instead of 'mechanics with relocation' ?

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Sorry for russian, but here is from memoirs of lt. Palmov, sq.leader in 806shap, Stalingrad front, autumn 1942:

yes there's a English version of his exploits. Some where.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

There's quite a bit about the rear gunners in the Wikipedia article about the IL2

[Zak]

Maybe this can help - special pre-order features

[Mastermariner]

As this was a add-on to the original design the gunner was outside the armored "tub". The Germans had learned that the Sturmoviks where unarmed and vulnerable from behind so they just "parked" behind and opened fire. Too late to some they realized something had changed. They were shooting back! This was in a way like OK Corral, you shot first and aimed well you won.

Many gunners where volunteers' from the girl crew that took care of the guns on ground and yes the causality rate was high. So high that some pilots' who brought back one dead gunner after the other broke down in tears and refused to fly with rear gunners on board.

[LukeFF]

Their life expectancy was terribly short.

 

Not any more so than the pilots:

 

http://english.iremember.ru/airmen/39-yurii-khukhrikov.html?q=%2Fairmen%2F39-yurii-khukhrikov.html&start=1

 

 

They say that there were 7 killed gunners for each killed pilot, is that true?

No. Let me explain. We had 105 pilots and 50 gunners killed, why? Because the regiment fought from the beginning to the end of the war. The first half of the war in one-seater aircraft. And the second half -- in two-seaters. And most of the time, they died together. A ground attack aircraft pilot, according to the statistics, managed to fly 7-8 sorties and then died. Such were statistics.

 

[Finkeren]

"They say that there were 7 killed gunners for each killed pilot, is that true?

No. Let me explain. We had 105 pilots and 50 gunners killed, why? Because the regiment fought from the beginning to the end of the war. The first half of the war in one-seater aircraft. And the second half -- in two-seaters. And most of the time, they died together. A ground attack aircraft pilot, according to the statistics, managed to fly 7-8 sorties and then died. Such were statistics."

 

While I agree, that the life expectancy wouldn't be that different between gunners and pilots, it seems very unlikely, that the statistic of 7 - 8 sorties on average could be correct. Ofc this is not an actual statistic, just a guy reliving his memories, in any case it shouldn't be taken as face value.

 

I don't have the source on hand, but I read somewhere, that the average IL2 in 1943 would complete around 20 sorties before being shot down or written off. This seems more realistic and roughly corresponds to the loss rates of 8th Air Force bombers in the early days of daylingt raids. An average loss rate of close to 15% would be unsustainable, even for the VVS.

[Freycinet]

Finkeren, the USSR was in a life-and-death struggle, unlike the US. It wasn't a democracy, unlike the US. There were horrendous casualty rates in all branches of the Soviet armed forces throughout the war, unthinkable rates that statistically made military service sure suicide. Lots of history books bear that out... 

[Finkeren]

I'm not denying that the Sovjet military generally tolerated much higher casualty rates than most other nations, but an average casualty rate of almost 15% per sortie is completely unsustainable. I don't doubt that during intense battles (such as during the early phases of the Stalingrad campaign) there could be even higher casualty rates, but throughout the war? That would mean that, on average, all active close support units of IL2s would be depleted every 14 days, if not more often!

 

BTW: I fail to see, what the USSR not being a democracy has to do with casualty rates? The Republican side in the Spanish Civil War suffered tremendous casualties despite representing "democracy".

[Feathered_IV]

Anna Egorova mentioned in her book that she flew the Il-2 with volunteer ground crew serving as gunners. 

[Bookfaster]

Not any more so than the pilots:

 

http://english.iremember.ru/airmen/39-yurii-khukhrikov.html?q=%2Fairmen%2F39-yurii-khukhrikov.html&start=1

A very good read, thank's for sharing!

[Finkeren]

Using ground crew as gunners would make some sense anyway, since they would already be used to dealing with the weaponry. The ShKAS while quite reliable was not exactly a simple piece of machinery with its "bird-cage" revolver feed system. Man that thing must've been frustrating to clear jams on.

[TJT]

IL-2/IL-10 by Gordon, Komissarov and Komissarov

They put losses of air gunners at 50% higher then pilots but do not divulge how or from where that statistic stems.

Given that the pilot had armor protection while the gunner didn't, an attack on the aircraft put the gunner at much higher risk of being wounded or killed then the pilot.

Initially little attention was paid for training air gunners and an infantryman or ground crew could be and air gunner with a minimum of instruction. Later, special training was provided for the air gunners.
 

[Heywooood]

the difference in tolerance to high casualty rates is defined by fighting on your own soil for the life of your country vs shipping overseas to fight for a geo political goal - no more no less

lets not be purely political when there is no reason for it

Edited August 2, 2013 by Heywooood

[BraveSirRobin]

Politics or not, the presence of NKVD troops waiting to shoot you if you attempted to retreat was probably also a factor in the willingness of Soviet commanders to accept brutal casualties.

[Mastermariner]

History is what it is. I didn't make it.

[dburne]

Hear hear!!

[Sokol1]

Anna Egorova mentioned in her book that she flew the Il-2 with volunteer ground crew serving as gunners. 

 

"In fact, air gunners where trained at short-time classes.

Anyone who ad the will to fly and knew how to shoot could apply. 

Among those, I have seen engine technicians, mechanics, flight observers from 

obsolete types of planes, even machine-gunners from ground forces."

 

The first attemps to use rear gunner in il-2 whas with fixed guns aimed by pilot with rear mirror...

 

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/converted2seaters/transition.htm

 

Good "scarf"?

 

 

Sokol1

Edited August 3, 2013 by Sokol1

[DressedWings]

What happened to my post above dburnette? 

[dburne]

What happened to my post above dburnette? 

 

I was kind of wondering the same, I certainly was not " hear hear'ing" the post that is reflected above mine now

[Heywooood]

I'm wondering why mine are still here...or anywhere...

 

do dee do.....

 

back on topic - I was right all along - reassigned mechanics - airframe riggers - general infantry

 

next

[Mogster]

Most importantly when do we get the rear defensive parachute grenades mod

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I have not spotted many mentions of those in any memoirs from German or Finnish pilots mentioning these parachute grenades Mogster. A handlful incidents and even then they seemed to be more of a distraction than of any actual use. Most important thing to me is how AI handles gunnery. Are we getting incredible snipers hitting you from any angle and speed or what? Nevertheless would be shooting into cockpit/turret to kill gunner if engaging any bomber or IL-2.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Flanker35M