Editor messing with Season Settings?

[csThor]

Alright, got myself a new PC a few months back and finally wanted to re-start looking into the ME, but I have been puzzled by an issue for the past two hours that I cannot solve.

 

I select the Prokhorovka Map, set the season to Summer and the GUI Map to Prokhorovka ... but when I add AI objects (or even static stuff) the editor always automatically reverts to winter and therefor loads the winter version. I never encountered this before, switching back to summer, hitting apply, saving ... nothing works. The ME always reengages winter mode and keeps the objects in winter scheme. That is mightily annoying ... and rather puzzling. What is the reason? How do I get the darn thing to cooperate and stop this messing about? ?

[Zooropa_Fly]

Is there a Prokhorovka Winter map ?

I can only get Summer 

 

Have you set both the GUI map and Terrain Presets ?

[csThor]

Yes, it keeps the terrain preset and the GUI map, but always switches the season from summer to winter. It puzzles me, I've never had that before.

[Juri_JS]

I tested the Prokhorovka map and I don't have this issue. You could try "ResetEditorSettings" in the editor folder, maybe it helps.

[csThor]

Thanks, Juri. That did it. Maybe it was an installation issue with Win 11 or something. ?

[357th_KW]

I've had this occur with a number of different maps (rhineland, normandy, stalingrad etc) over the past year - the season will randomly get switched at times.  Generally just changing it and saving it again is the fix, but I haven't been able to pick out what is causing it to change in the first place.

[csThor]

It returns sometimes, but with the reset it can always be made to obey ;).

 

Now I've got another question: I am playing around with ideas for tank missions and especially how to nullify the "all-seeing-AI". If I wanted to, for example, build a hidden AT gun position that only fires once enemy tanks move into its ambush zone of fire that is easily doable ... but then there is nothing in its place unless it is activated. I've been messing around with the "Engagable" setting and the "Command:Behavior" so that the object is always  there but the AI won't immediately spot it through foliage and hills, but I want to then try to add some kind of "if the player has noticed it then it activates "upon being attacked" (haven't tried that, yet). However one problem to solve beforehand is this: Can AI ground objects be set to 0 ammo? Right now the AT gun engages when in range, anyway. I want to try and remove its ammo so that it doesn't fire on anything in range but there seems to be no setting for this? 

[Juri_JS]

I've never tried it, but what about setting the guns country to neutral and later changing it when you want it to open fire. No idea if this will work, but it's worth a try.

[csThor]

Neutrals will happily plink away at anyone. Just tried that. ?

 

Hmmmm ...

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

Sure, a simple AT ambush position is set up by using the Force Complete MCU “high” and “low” options.

 

Have Gun activated.

Use timer to target Gun with Force Complete “high” (await orders) cmd.

Set up how you want the ambush zone to work. Either via proximity, check zone or complex trigger.

When any of these parameters are met.

Use timer to target Gun with Force Complete “low” (order received) cmd.

This releases Gun to locate seen enemies and fire within its own set parameters.

You can further define those parameters via a Timer with the direct Attack MCU (single or group) option or Attack Area MCU (in this case “attack ground objects”) option.

 

Since your very new to using the ME. Jim T’s mission builder manual is a good way to become oriented with using the cmds.

Good Luck with you Mission Designing,

Tip

[csThor]

The manual is a mandatory thing already and is always open in the background when I fiddle with the ME, but it sometimes isn't too helpful in translating the "plane terms" to "ground-hopper terms" since most examples are naturally oriented towards aircraft. ?

 

So you're saying I set the AT gun to "active" but "not engageable", put it on neutral, put it on "Force Complete=high" (to keep it nice and pacifist) and set up the triggers I want for it to become active. Once the trigger is activated I switch the country to the nation it needs to be, make it engageable and set "Force Completee=low) to let it plink away at its leisure. Hmmm ... Gotta try that.

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, csThor said:

 

So you're saying I set the AT gun to "active" but "not engageable", put it on neutral, put it on "Force Complete=high" (to keep it nice and pacifist) and set up the triggers I want for it to become active. Once the trigger is activated I switch the country to the nation it needs to be, make it engageable and set "Force Completee=low) to let it plink away at its leisure. 

 

You should not need those first 2 steps. Leave the gun whatever faction it is and engageable.

After the gun is activated, or at mission start if it is enabled trigger a force complete high command to make it dormant

Then trigger force complete low when you want it to start firing.

[csThor]

The first two steps are what I am trying to achieve in the first place. I want to "hide" the AT gun from the all-seeing-AI (without it "popping up all of a sudden out of thin air) until the point where I want it to know it's there. But I want it to be observable to the player if he takes the time for caredful observation bofore it opens fire and then find a second trigger to make the switch to engageable somehow. If I merely place it and do have AI tanks around they'll know it's there the moment it spawns - even if it is far outside their normal field of view or behind foliage. Learned that early on, this is why I am trying to solve this problem as a fundamental thing. 

 

The first test worked. But I will try a lot of different scenarios from all kinds of angles to check whether that was dumb luck or not.

Edited January 28, 2024 by csThor

[csThor]

Alright,  so far tests look very promising. I have tried three different scenarios and every time the switch worked reliably. I even put enemy tanks on overwatch right in front of the object (used infantry and MGs for a change) and they only started attacking the infantry once the switch condition was met. Nice! ?

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

3 hours ago, csThor said:

The manual is a mandatory thing already and is always open in the background when I fiddle with the ME, but it sometimes isn't too helpful in translating the "plane terms" to "ground-hopper terms" since most examples are naturally oriented towards aircraft. ?

 

So you're saying I set the AT gun to "active" but "not engageable", put it on neutral, put it on "Force Complete=high" (to keep it nice and pacifist) and set up the triggers I want for it to become active. Once the trigger is activated I switch the country to the nation it needs to be, make it engageable and set "Force Completee=low) to let it plink away at its leisure. Hmmm ... Gotta try that.

Looks like you’ve got it. Not sure you need to have it as neutral to begin with but why not as your going to change neutral to whichever coalition you wish along with setting engageable within the Behavior cmd.

 

Thank you for stating your understanding with regards with what works for aircraft generally works differently or not at all with regard to vehicles, guns and tanks.

Great Post,

Tip

[Jaegermeister]

10 hours ago, csThor said:

The first two steps are what I am trying to achieve in the first place. I want to "hide" the AT gun from the all-seeing-AI (without it "popping up all of a sudden out of thin air) until the point where I want it to know it's there. But I want it to be observable to the player if he takes the time for caredful observation bofore it opens fire and then find a second trigger to make the switch to engageable somehow. If I merely place it and do have AI tanks around they'll know it's there the moment it spawns - even if it is far outside their normal field of view or behind foliage. Learned that early on, this is why I am trying to solve this problem as a fundamental thing. 

 

The first test worked. But I will try a lot of different scenarios from all kinds of angles to check whether that was dumb luck or not.

 

That makes sense. Sounds like the right solution. You can also name the AT gun NOICON so it does not appear if someone is using icons at the time.

[csThor]

Oh really? Tell me more good Sir ...

 

 

[Jaegermeister]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:04 PM, csThor said:

Oh really? Tell me more good Sir ...

 

 

If you are referring to my previous post, if you name a block vehicle or plane NOICON, it does not have one in game. Conversely if you name it FARICON, the ID will show up further away. 

[csThor]

Was just trying that evil grin icon. Not a serious question.

[csThor]

Just a little status report on further refining the "hide from the all-seeing-AI" setup. The switch itself functions reliably, I never had a fail that wasn't attributed to me making mistakes. I have spent the last two days with my nose in the Editor Manual trying to find a solution for the secondary switch check that I was aiming for. I have not found a simple and elegant version, at first I was trying to use the OnDamaged report of the object itself, but most ground objects (except tanks) are so squishy that they cannot stand up to MG or cannon fire, anyway, so the entire thing was usually rather redundant/pointless. Then I was looking for some sort of "if the player or one of his squad/troop mates attack this area" kind of check, but I found nothing that would work as I needed it. So ultimately I went with placing a fake block in front of the object, close enough to "catch" even near misses, set the OnDamaged threshold to 99 (just to test it) and linked the Command:Behaviour to this report. The switch works as soon as I shot the area with the fake block. Then I added three counter MCUs, two in (first for the checkzone switch that triggers the Command:Behaviour if opposing ground objects enter it, second for the new "If you're shot at stop trying to pretend you're not there" trigger) and finally one for out - all set to one with no reset since the behaviorial switch is supposed to be a onetime event (=if either IN condition is met the OUT counter is flicked on and the behavioral switch is fired). Just to let you know.

Edited February 1, 2024 by csThor

[csThor]

In case anyone is interested here's the Group so far.

Ambush_Hide_from_AI.zip

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

23 hours ago, csThor said:

Just a little status report on further refining the "hide from the all-seeing-AI" setup. The switch itself functions reliably, I never had a fail that wasn't attributed to me making mistakes. I have spent the last two days with my nose in the Editor Manual trying to find a solution for the secondary switch check that I was aiming for. I have not found a simple and elegant version, at first I was trying to use the OnDamaged report of the object itself, but most ground objects (except tanks) are so squishy that they cannot stand up to MG or cannon fire, anyway, so the entire thing was usually rather redundant/pointless. Then I was looking for some sort of "if the player or one of his squad/troop mates attack this area" kind of check, but I found nothing that would work as I needed it. So ultimately I went with placing a fake block in front of the object, close enough to "catch" even near misses, set the OnDamaged threshold to 99 (just to test it) and linked the Command:Behaviour to this report. The switch works as soon as I shot the area with the fake block. Then I added three counter MCUs, two in (first for the checkzone switch that triggers the Command:Behaviour if opposing ground objects enter it, second for the new "If you're shot at stop trying to pretend you're not there" trigger) and finally one for out - all set to one with no reset since the behaviorial switch is supposed to be a onetime event (=if either IN condition is met the OUT counter is flicked on and the behavioral switch is fired). Just to let you know.

There are very few elegantly created logic streams which work using out of the box thinking. Much less for designing TC content.

Your stream above looks very good.

You should have someone run a designed mission with no idea where the ambushing unit is placed as a test.

I think a real question with ambushing is wether the player or players have a chance of defeating the ambush using maneuver or blatant attrition. 
 

Additionally, providing that you create failsafes for the duplicity of the ambushing unit. You could use the “Spawn at Me” option with random positions of your choice with the same logic stream.

Good Luck with your mission designing,

Tip

[csThor]

Good morning from Germany,

 

Quote

I think a real question with ambushing is wether the player or players have a chance of defeating the ambush using maneuver or blatant attrition. 

 

All ground-based AT assets, even modern ATGM teams, depend on concealment for effect and survival. The smaller the caliber of the AT gun the more it depends on concealment to avoid being noticed until the enemy tanks are within its envelope of effective fire, or on being able to fire into the flanks of enemy armor (as it so often happened at Kursk). It is a basic fact of the battlefield that I needed to make possible as a foundational stepping stone of the basic ideas about how tank missions ought to be that I have in my head. (Disclaimer: I am still so very much new in that Editor that I have to experiment a lot more with basic stuff to even be able to cobble a mission together, much less one I would deem "acceptable".)

 

That "ambush" idea is but one of the possible uses, however. Another possibility would be for example to place a hidden observer in a copse somewhere (either and infantry object or a Sdkfz 222/234) and have it "observe" the enemy while making radio reports on his progress and what he does. The basic intention of mine, however, is not to "punish" the player but to force a much slower pace of gameplay and to make the player pay attention to his surroundings. Observation and recon are essential prerequisites to any ground operation and so far all missions I have played were very much fast-paced "in your face" action. That is not what happened at Kursk (or at most other times, for that matter). Besides that: AT guns were the primary enemy of german armor during Citadel, tanks much less so (despite the "simplified" history and flashy headlines). And as I said - concealment is life for all ground-based AT assets.

 

Secondly, and I intend to make full use of these assets despite them being "just" british and american infantry models, the central element of ground combat remains the infantry. Only infantry can take and secure terrain, tanks/assault guns facilitate (or thwart) that mission, but they can't do that themselves. So the gameplay and the speed of operations has to be infantry based (that was not yet possible when TC came out). If we take a look at historical examples the slow pace becomes obvious:

 

 

Panzergrenadier Regiment 111 assaulted Butovo on July 4 1943 as preliminary to Citadel from initial positions west of Visokoe (the little town in the south of the pic). The attack began at 14:50 hours with a Stuka strike on forward observation posts south of Butovo and the town itself, but it took german grenadiers until 16:00 hours to even reach the southern edge of Butovo. The town would not be secured until much later (after PzGren Rgt 110 occupied the high ground north-east of Butovo). If I go by the pace all tank missions I've played so far that would be a much quicker affair and not really realistic at all. So my basic intent is to slow down the pace of events to "human speed", because the infantry was so central to the combat.

 

Another example from July 5 is Leibstandarte's advance astride the Tomarovka-Bikovka highway.

 

 

The starting positions were on the Berezov-Dragunskoe line (roughly) and Bikovka was reached in the waning hours of this day - and that was the farthest and quickest advance that day. 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2024 by csThor

[Jaegermeister]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:26 PM, [DBS]Tx_Tip said:

 

I think a real question with ambushing is wether the player or players have a chance of defeating the ambush using maneuver or blatant attrition. 
 

This will depend mostly on the AI level of the tank or gun that is making the ambush. The simple way to put it is the lower the AI level, the more times they will miss before they hit. The German tanks are more efficient and generally more powerful as opposed to the Allied tanks which have a higher hit ratio for the same AI level to compensate for the technical advantages of the German equipment and make it “fair” in a scripted mission scenario.

 

Ace AI level will only miss once if at all when firing. High will miss a couple of times before they hit the target so it will warn the player of its location and allow some time for reaction. Average will miss more times before hitting and Low may not hit the player at all before being killed.