Accurate Tracer Visuals

[choctaw111]

This has been a long time gripe of mine with the tracer visuals being very inaccurate.

For those who've never seen them in real life, only in videos, different cameras show tracers

in different ways and different lengths, not what the human eye actually sees.  Star Wars lasers are actually very good impressions

of what tracers actually look like.

What we have here in game are tracers shown from a perspective of a very fast shutter speed, meaning that while the bullets

are simulated as moving at 2 thousand something feet per second, the visual tracer itself is only about 4 feet long...way too short

for something that bright moving so fast.  

The apparent tracer length is completely dependent on how fast it's moving and since I don't believe the game simulates this effect,

a fixed tracer length can be programmed in.

By the way, Il2 Cliffs of Dover (original release) got this correct!

There are lines of text that can be edited in "Data, LuaScripts, worldobjects, ballistics, projectiles"

but after much experimenting they don't seem to make any difference.

 

In the following section, I played around with the 

SizeArg, SizeArgVal and LengthArg values

but didn't see any changes and I'm not sure what those lines control.

 

//////    PhysicsBody properties
VisualImage=0,"graphics/ammo/ammoPmgSmk.mgm",false
visualradius=4
ImageAttrs="IA_NOMINPIXELS","IA_NOROTINTERPOLATION","IA_NOCLIP"
SizeArg=10
SizeArgVal=0.40
LenghtArg=35
LenghtArgMinValSpeed=300 // ì/ñ, ñêîðîñòü ïðè êîòîðîé àðã=0.0
LenghtArgMaxValSpeed=900 // ì/ñ, ñêîðîñòü ïðè êîòîðîé àðã=1.0

 

Does anyone know what those values are actually for 

or any suggestions on increasing tracer length?  

If the sim is running at 60 frames per second,

the tracer length, based on a 2,750 feet per second projectile

should be about 45 feet in length.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[choctaw111]

To give a visual representation, here is a stock screen shot in game and what it should look like from the same angle at 60FPS.  Notice that I took the original screenshot running the sim at 1/32 time scale.  At this very slow speed, the tracers would be approximately this apparent length but speed up the game to real time and they should appear much longer at 60 FPS.  If we had computers and displays that would run this game at 1,920 frames per second then the tracers, even though they're so short, would appear correct to our eyes.  WxTech has already modified Il2 1946 with increased tracer length from my input and they look so much better.  Unfortunately, he doesn't do any work on this particular sim.  Does anyone have the knowledge to do this? 

[Stonehouse]

Not sure but I think the args are the link to the effect. Sizearg and lenghtArg are uniform across all rounds. ie 10 and 20 

The arg values I think are parameters passed to the linked effect. 

 

I think Reiper420 said that SizeArgval modified the thickness. I see a Hispano round has 0.47 for this and a 0.303 round has a lower value of 0.32 so that seems to concur with that statement. IE 20mm tracer is thicker than a 7.62mm bullet tracer. No idea if this is in fact the case in real life but it sounds reasonable.

 

So perhaps try fiddling with LenghtArgMinValSpeed and LenghtArgMaxValSpeed?

Translated comment for these are m/s, speed at which arg=0.0 and m/s, speed at which arg=1.0

 

Unfortunately, it may only turn on and off the whole tracer effect rather than control the length.

 

Tracers used to be handled differently in the lua and I have a vague memory that the dev log for the patch these new values were introduced talked a little about it?

 

There is also a tracershowtime (translation of comment = tracer burning time) and livetime (object lifetime (the greater of the two: flight time at MaxDistance or tracer burning time + 3.5s)) further down in the projectile definition

 

PS found the dev comment

6. Instead of having two sizes of tracers ("MGs" and "cannons"), they now depend on the projectile caliber and the tracer length reduces as the projectile speed decreases (important when viewed from the side). Visible tracers of machine guns and small-caliber cannons became significantly smaller, and the size of tank and artillery tracers increased as the result;

 

I would first try reducing the value of LenghtArgMinValSpeed

Edited January 24, 2024 by Stonehouse

[choctaw111]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

Not sure but I think the args are the link to the effect. Sizearg and lenghtArg are uniform across all rounds. ie 10 and 20 

The arg values I think are parameters passed to the linked effect. 

 

I think Reiper420 said that SizeArgval modified the thickness. I see a Hispano round has 0.47 for this and a 0.303 round has a lower value of 0.32 so that seems to concur with that statement. IE 20mm tracer is thicker than a 7.62mm bullet tracer. No idea if this is in fact the case in real life but it sounds reasonable.

 

So perhaps try fiddling with LenghtArgMinValSpeed and LenghtArgMaxValSpeed?

Translated comment for these are m/s, speed at which arg=0.0 and m/s, speed at which arg=1.0

 

Unfortunately, it may only turn on and off the whole tracer effect rather than control the length.

 

Tracers used to be handled differently in the lua and I have a vague memory that the dev log for the patch these new values were introduced talked a little about it?

 

There is also a tracershowtime (translation of comment = tracer burning time) and livetime (object lifetime (the greater of the two: flight time at MaxDistance or tracer burning time + 3.5s)) further down in the projectile definition

 

PS found the dev comment

6. Instead of having two sizes of tracers ("MGs" and "cannons"), they now depend on the projectile caliber and the tracer length reduces as the projectile speed decreases (important when viewed from the side). Visible tracers of machine guns and small-caliber cannons became significantly smaller, and the size of tank and artillery tracers increased as the result;

 

I would first try reducing the value of LenghtArgMinValSpeed

Thanks for the dev comment.  I haven't yet messed with the ValSpeed numbers.  I'll read a bit more and start changing some things and see what happens

[choctaw111]

I've messed with some of the variables...

SizeArg and LengthARG seem to do absolutely nothing when the values are changed.

MinVal and MaxValSpeed also seem to make no noticeable difference regardless of value.

Even changing the bullet speed had no effect on the visual length of the tracer.

I wish I had an explanation for what each value actually does.

 

 

[Mtnbiker1998]

Have you tried adjusting the actual size of the tracer texture file? probably just stretching it out would work as a test, then worry about making it look pretty afterwards.

 

Not entirely convinced your framerate/length argument is solid (this is not even remotely how our eyes work) but if you think it looks good then more power to you. based on the tracer fire I've seen irl I think IL-2 is pretty spot on, with Arma 3 being probably the only game that does it better.

[choctaw111]

4 hours ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

Have you tried adjusting the actual size of the tracer texture file? probably just stretching it out would work as a test, then worry about making it look pretty afterwards.

 

Not entirely convinced your framerate/length argument is solid (this is not even remotely how our eyes work) but if you think it looks good then more power to you. based on the tracer fire I've seen irl I think IL-2 is pretty spot on, with Arma 3 being probably the only game that does it better.

 

Yes, I have tried lengthening the BMP file (that actually works in Il2 46) but strange visual artifacts result.  Creating a longer MBP tracer does NOT make it longer in game but creates a T shape at the front. 

More on what our eyes actually see versus a camera...We can take a single point of light, such as a laser pointer, and move it quickly across an object (a wall or a floor as an example) it no longer appears as a dot to the human eye but as an elongated streak.  It could also be moved in a circular pattern that creates an arc, with no discernable single dot since it's moving so fast.  Based on my actual observations of tracers during my career in the Airborne Infantry, the tracers in this sim are way too short especially when they're close and moving past you very quickly.  In external view zoomed out all the way from the side, they look ok but they do not look good close up.  Especially from the pilot's view the tracers should initially be very long streaks right out of the barrel.  Oleg did a VERY good job of the tracers in the original Il2 Cliffs of Dover as he too saw them during his time in the military.  The apparent length would even change depending on the time scale, not to mention the amazing effects with the propellers turning in slow motion!

Edited January 24, 2024 by choctaw111

[choctaw111]

4 hours ago, Mtnbiker1998 said:

Have you tried adjusting the actual size of the tracer texture file? probably just stretching it out would work as a test, then worry about making it look pretty afterwards.

 

Not entirely convinced your framerate/length argument is solid (this is not even remotely how our eyes work) but if you think it looks good then more power to you. based on the tracer fire I've seen irl I think IL-2 is pretty spot on, with Arma 3 being probably the only game that does it better.

I believe that the BMP is simply a skin for a mesh that is in another folder somewhere.  I just wish I knew where it was and how to edit it

[Stonehouse]

Not what you are after exactly but sizeargval does make the tracer thicker.........to a point. Seems to me like the upper value is 1 - values above 1 seemed to be ignored. Also changing the lenghtArgminvalspeed and lenghtargmaxvalspeed does seem to lengthen the tracer........to a point. I set the sizeargval to 1 and the lenghtargminvalspeed to 0 m/s and lenghtarmaxvalspeed to 1000 m/s for the pic below. Hopefully you can see that the tracer is both thicker and longer. I have not really taken it further, tracer looks maybe 2or 3 x times stock. You're after about 11 times, not sure it is achievable but perhaps you can get somewhere by changing the lenghtarg val speeds some more.  I've included my little testbed mod. JSGME format. Only bullet_usa_12-7x99_ap.

 

Note that the ammo effect is associated with 3 files. The ballistic def links to the bmp, an mgm file and a text file. The mgm is largely not editable as it is compiled in some fashion although you can with care use a hex editor to point it at a new bmp - eg Multicolour tracer mod. The text file is editable although note that the args mentioned in it are the same as in the ballistic def so I would not change these from the values of 10 and 20 as likely these are meaningful to the 3d model. The other values I've fiddled with but altering the values didn't seem to change anything, perhaps experiment with those too.

eg: 

ammor.txt

DefArg=-1,0.0
DefArg=10,0.25
DefArg=20,1.0

 

 

Modded

 

Stock

tracerlength.zip

Edited January 25, 2024 by Stonehouse

[choctaw111]

5 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Not what you are after exactly but sizeargval does make the tracer thicker.........to a point. Seems to me like the upper value is 1 - values above 1 seemed to be ignored. Also changing the lenghtArgminvalspeed and lenghtargmaxvalspeed does seem to lengthen the tracer........to a point. I set the sizeargval to 1 and the lenghtargminvalspeed to 0 m/s and lenghtarmaxvalspeed to 1000 m/s for the pic below. Hopefully you can see that the tracer is both thicker and longer. I have not really taken it further, tracer looks maybe 2or 3 x times stock. You're after about 11 times, not sure it is achievable but perhaps you can get somewhere by changing the lenghtarg val speeds some more.  I've included my little testbed mod. JSGME format. Only bullet_usa_12-7x99_ap.

 

Note that the ammo effect is associated with 3 files. The ballistic def links to the bmp, an mgm file and a text file. The mgm is largely not editable as it is compiled in some fashion although you can with care use a hex editor to point it at a new bmp - eg Multicolour tracer mod. The text file is editable although note that the args mentioned in it are the same as in the ballistic def so I would not change these from the values of 10 and 20 as likely these are meaningful to the 3d model. The other values I've fiddled with but altering the values didn't seem to change anything, perhaps experiment with those too.

eg: 

ammor.txt

DefArg=-1,0.0
DefArg=10,0.25
DefArg=20,1.0

 

 

Modded

 

Stock

tracerlength.zip 6.8 kB · 2 downloads

I've been messing around with this off an on for several years but recently sat back down to address this again.  I really appreciate you looking into this and your input and advice.  I'll see what else I can come up with

[choctaw111]

6 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

Not what you are after exactly but sizeargval does make the tracer thicker.........to a point. Seems to me like the upper value is 1 - values above 1 seemed to be ignored. Also changing the lenghtArgminvalspeed and lenghtargmaxvalspeed does seem to lengthen the tracer........to a point. I set the sizeargval to 1 and the lenghtargminvalspeed to 0 m/s and lenghtarmaxvalspeed to 1000 m/s for the pic below. Hopefully you can see that the tracer is both thicker and longer. I have not really taken it further, tracer looks maybe 2or 3 x times stock. You're after about 11 times, not sure it is achievable but perhaps you can get somewhere by changing the lenghtarg val speeds some more.  I've included my little testbed mod. JSGME format. Only bullet_usa_12-7x99_ap.

 

Note that the ammo effect is associated with 3 files. The ballistic def links to the bmp, an mgm file and a text file. The mgm is largely not editable as it is compiled in some fashion although you can with care use a hex editor to point it at a new bmp - eg Multicolour tracer mod. The text file is editable although note that the args mentioned in it are the same as in the ballistic def so I would not change these from the values of 10 and 20 as likely these are meaningful to the 3d model. The other values I've fiddled with but altering the values didn't seem to change anything, perhaps experiment with those too.

eg: 

ammor.txt

DefArg=-1,0.0
DefArg=10,0.25
DefArg=20,1.0

 

 

Modded

 

Stock

tracerlength.zip 6.8 kB · 2 downloads

Did you use the same BMP files for both tests?  The color and shape look different

[OrLoK]

i cant assist but id also love to see progress on this.

 

Star wars is a very good description of what we should see, and my personal gripe is that the tracers are not bright enough.

 

Regardless, I  wish you luck with your long quest!

[choctaw111]

19 minutes ago, OrLoK said:

i cant assist but id also love to see progress on this.

 

Star wars is a very good description of what we should see, and my personal gripe is that the tracers are not bright enough.

 

Regardless, I  wish you luck with your long quest!

Greatly appreciated!  The original Il2 had 2 different models for tracers.  One for "up close" using a 3D mesh and another from far away which was only a 2 dimensional line.  WxTech over the Il2SAS forums has cracked some of that code and can manipulate the 2D tracers for length, visibility distance, etc.  Unfortunately, he ONLY mods for that sim.  I believe was also have 2 models for tracers in this sim but I can't be sure.  After some testing, I noticed that while viewing the tracer from up close, the sim models it in a 3D cross with a "ball" on the front as indicated in the BMP files.  It will also get larger or smaller as you zoom in or out.  Up close, using a Bf109 as reference, the modded tracers are about the length from the nose cone to the main wing spar (not nearly long enough for how fast they're moving).  As you zoom out, the plane and tracer are getting further away, getting smaller to the viewer.  At a certain point, while still zooming out, the tracer stops getting smaller while the plane and background are still decreasing in size.  When zoomed out all the way, the tracer is as long as the entire aircraft.  This gives a clue as to how the tracer is rendered at distance, much like the original Il2 handled it.  We need to find a way to alter the 3D Mesh at closer distances.  Again, Il2 Cliffs of Dover (the original) had the tracers correct and the new developers completely ruined them

[choctaw111]

1 hour ago, OrLoK said:

i cant assist but id also love to see progress on this.

 

Star wars is a very good description of what we should see, and my personal gripe is that the tracers are not bright enough.

 

Regardless, I  wish you luck with your long quest!

Please assist is any way you can.  What are you able to do?

[Stonehouse]

7 hours ago, choctaw111 said:

Did you use the same BMP files for both tests?

Actually, in hindsight I didn't sorry. It would have been the bmp from Multicoloured tracers in the first. That doesn't impact the thickness and length change however as the copy of bullet_usa_12-7x99_ap.txt in my test mod was loaded after multicoloured tracers. The second shot was using my beta tester install. That was the easiest way to get a pic of the stock tracer.

[choctaw111]

33 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Actually, in hindsight I didn't sorry. It would have been the bmp from Multicoloured tracers in the first. That doesn't impact the thickness and length change however as the copy of bullet_usa_12-7x99_ap.txt in my test mod was loaded after multicoloured tracers. The second shot was using my beta tester install. That was the easiest way to get a pic of the stock tracer.

Understood.  As I stated before, simply creating a longer BMP image does nothing to increase the tracer length.  That is just a "skin" used on a 3D Mesh.  The BMP size is 64x254 and creating a 64x1016 image does not make it 4 times as long.  The key is finding that mesh and modifying it

[Stonehouse]

2 minutes ago, choctaw111 said:

Understood.  As I stated before, simply creating a longer BMP image does nothing to increase the tracer length.  That is just a "skin" used on a 3D Mesh.  The BMP size is 64x254 and creating a 64x1016 image does not make it 4 times as long.  The key is finding that mesh and modifying it

Most probably that would be the mgm file somehow or completely out of our reach just as the 3d models of other things are. Your best bet is to find a parameter in the ballistics definition or ammo definitions to tweak and if that isn't possible you would likely need to present a body of evidence that the tracer length is incorrect to the devs in the hope they might change it. I don't know for sure but I believe the multicoloured tracer mod simply copied the three ammo files from one of the stock colours to new names and then did a bmp change and a hex edit on the mgm to point at the new bmp. You need to be very careful when doing so to preserve the exact mgm file size by keeping the number of bytes in the new bmp file name the same. That however doesn't help you beyond the arg values already discussed. I did see that setting both speed vals to zero seemed to get rid of tracers completely. You may be able to find a setting for these that gets closer to what you want or perhaps tweaking the arg 20 line in the ammo text file may produce some results. Unfortunately as for other mods, it is all by trial and error and very time consuming.

[choctaw111]

40 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

Most probably that would be the mgm file somehow or completely out of our reach just as the 3d models of other things are. Your best bet is to find a parameter in the ballistics definition or ammo definitions to tweak and if that isn't possible you would likely need to present a body of evidence that the tracer length is incorrect to the devs in the hope they might change it. I don't know for sure but I believe the multicoloured tracer mod simply copied the three ammo files from one of the stock colours to new names and then did a bmp change and a hex edit on the mgm to point at the new bmp. You need to be very careful when doing so to preserve the exact mgm file size by keeping the number of bytes in the new bmp file name the same. That however doesn't help you beyond the arg values already discussed. I did see that setting both speed vals to zero seemed to get rid of tracers completely. You may be able to find a setting for these that gets closer to what you want or perhaps tweaking the arg 20 line in the ammo text file may produce some results. Unfortunately as for other mods, it is all by trial and error and very time consuming.

The game developers should have also known that not all tracers types are the same color.  That was the biggest disappointment when I was first testing the sim during the Alpha.  I even have a video on this on my old YouTube channel and mentioned this way back then and nothing...

 

Edited January 26, 2024 by choctaw111

[choctaw111]

What do the .COL files do in the ammo folder?  

It's plain text dealing with axis and vertices....

[Stonehouse]

collision stuff maybe?

 

I note that the collision reference is commented out in the 12.7 ballistic definition and that NoCollision = true in the definition. So obviously somewhere along the way they decided to handle things differently. 

Edited January 26, 2024 by Stonehouse

[OrLoK]

13 hours ago, choctaw111 said:

Please assist is any way you can.  What are you able to do?

really, not much.

 

what I can do is advise.

 

don't get frustrated and don't think devs are deliberately ignoring you, even if you've been posting on this issue for years.

 

keep in mind there are lots of pressures on the devs from all sorts of directions be it budgetary, gameplay, personnel, political, etc etc.

 

often whilst "why don't they *just* do X or Y" can seem a simple thing to do to us can often be almost impossible for them for many competing reasons.

 

it might be that we simply don't have enough access to the"deeper" files (like meshes) to implement perfect tracers, so a compromise might be in order.

 

keep flagging it up to the devs though, with examples (as you have done) and one day they *might* implement your idea, as they did with the clouds.

 

until then, keep fiddling with the files but don't let ot take over your life

Edited January 26, 2024 by OrLoK

[choctaw111]

How do I even get in touch with the developers at this point to ask for changes or improvements?

[choctaw111]

It's also worth noting that if the developers are using YouTube videos or similar to determine how tracers look, I've noticed that many of the videos (shot on cameras with fast shutter speeds as well) are showing "dark ignition" tracers.  Most of you have probably never heard of them but they are a "newer" design.  Simply put, the tracer, once fired, will not light in the barrel as this gives away the exact location of the shooter.  It will light about 50 meters away.  I've fired this type quite a bit in the Army.  I've also fired countless "old style" rounds, particularly from the 50BMG.  In a single day/night range event, we fired 300,000 (three hundred thousand) rounds of 50 cal.  What's very interesting about the 50BMG tracer is that it had a plastic disc that sealed the tracer element.  When fired, the plastic disc, as it melted, would burn green for about 5 meters before the red tracer element burned through.  No one watching a black and white film would ever know that.  

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, choctaw111 said:

How do I even get in touch with the developers at this point to ask for changes or improvements?

 

Post a topic with supporting sources in the Suggestions forum. ?

[choctaw111]

9 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Post a topic with supporting sources in the Suggestions forum. ?

Maybe I need a new eyeglass prescription but I didn't see a "Suggestions" forum.  I feel like a new guy on a fools errand

[MajorMagee]

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/12-suggestions/

[choctaw111]

47 minutes ago, MajorMagee said:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/12-suggestions/

Thanks, man